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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

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  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,336
    andre1969 said:

    I think some of those cars the MSP tested actually WOULD do 0-60 in under 10 seconds if MT or C&D got ahold of them. It's just that the MSP tested them differently. IIRC, they just put two big cops in the car, and had them drive one way down the test track, and then come back, to account for differences in the wind. And then they took the two-way average. They also didn't do things like manually holding the lower gears, power-braking to launch faster, etc.

    I just opened my police car book...the MSP actually tested two Celebrities in 1985! One was the 2.8 V6 with a 2-bbl carb, and it did 0-60 in 13.87 seconds, 0-100 in 55.31, and topped out at 116.1 mph. The other was a fuel injected 2.8, and it was good for 0-60 in 12.00 seconds, 0-100 in 42.26, and a top speed of 115.3.

    For comparison, the quickest police sedan in 1985 was the fox-based LTD with the 165 hp fuel injected 302. 0-60 in 10.53, 0-100 in 30.74, and a top speed of 120.6. With bigger cars, the Impala 350 was quickest from 0-60 (11.66 seconds), the Crown Vic with a 351-2bbl was quickest in 0-100 (39.78 seconds), but a Gran Fury had the highest top speed (119.4 mph).

    I have an old 1985 Consumer Guide that tested a Celebrity with the 112 hp 2.8 2-bbl V6, and they got 0-60 in 11.2 seconds. So I'm sure any of those cars the MSP tested were capable of better numbers, if some other source tested them.

    My Mom's 86 Monte Carlo, which had the 150 hp 305-4bbl, definitely had some pull to it. I remember when it first took off, for a moment you could actually feel yourself getting pinned back in the seat just a bit. But, I think a lot of older cars with big engines and good low-down torque are like that. They'll throw you back for a moment on takeoff, whereas a smaller engine has to wind up a bit, and even if it ends up being faster, it doesn't always feel like it.

    I seem to remember that GM(and probably other car manufacturers) would sometimes use a non-proportional accelerator linkage; for example, 10% of pedal movement might open the throttle 20%- leading the driver to think that the car was quicker than it actually was.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    My Mom's 86 Monte Carlo, which had the 150 hp 305-4bbl, definitely had some pull to it. I remember when it first took off, for a moment you could actually feel yourself getting pinned back in the seat just a bit.

    Moving from a V6 to a 305 4-barrel in his '84 Monte Carlo, I remember my Dad saying, "That's really a light touch" (meaning the gas pedal). At the time I remember it seeming like it just zoomed away from a stop. On top of that, I liked the dark, flat fake woodgrain used inside better than in '81 and '82, and that it was outlined in a gold pinstripe. Also the background to the rectangular "Monte Carlo" nameplate on the panel became gold instead of red, as earlier. Minor things, but I liked them. I didn't like how the clock became optional, and Dad's car had an empty circle as big as the speedometer and right next to it, where the clock should've been. Similarly, in the later years (thru '88 MY), I'd have HAD to buy the gauge package that included tach as I hate big blank spaces!
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  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,698
    Our '95 Suburban had that 'light touch' on the gas pedal. It responded a lot quicker than that on our ES300, so there was always a few seconds of adjustment when I switched between vehicles.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,123
    I think a few not necessarily fast cars have light throttles to maybe feel "peppy". I think my mom's Camry is kind of that way too, where some MBs, older ones especially, have very hard throttles that make them seem maybe slower than reality.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,470
    edited January 2023
    our 2013 RDX had a touchy gas pedal. When I rode with my wife driving (not that often) I would get whiplash, because she use that thing like an on/off switch.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    When I drove my friend's 'Benz--don't ask me the model, I remember names better than numbers!--I remember I really had to push the pedal. I think it said "4AUTOMATIC" on the decklid.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    Make that "4MATIC" on the decklid.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    edited January 2023
    We were talking not too long ago, about how long the Conelrad symbols were on car radio dials. My Stude's in storage for the winter but I came across the below photo. The car was built without a radio but apparently had one installed by the dealer in the five months it sat in dealer stock before being sold. It is a 1966-only radio as it has black knobs. The car's a '66 so Stude, rarely the latest on anything, still was using them then.




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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,123
    Fintail's radio is a 1964 model, but is a German brand, so no triangles, maybe not required if made elsewhere.
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,801
    The girls are at the studio tonight, so I made myself and early dinner and flipped on the TV. Found the Barrett Jackson Scottsdale auction, and watched a bit of it.

    1961 VW Bus 23-window sold for $175K.

    I know this was commented on not long ago, but who has the money for these purchases? Lots of 6-figure transactions prices.

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  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,292
    Saturday is usually the big money day if you need a reason to watch more tomorrow.
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  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 240,801

    Saturday is usually the big money day if you need a reason to watch more tomorrow.

    Yep. Just depress me more, why don't you.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,123
    Seems some old cars come out for the winter, spotted a decent looking earlier Aerostar and a first gen Legend sedan.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,123
    Michaell said:

    Saturday is usually the big money day if you need a reason to watch more tomorrow.

    Yep. Just depress me more, why don't you.
    I read elsewhere an 85 Eldo and a Shelby Charger brought 25K apiece, pretty strong for either car.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,470
    I was watching a flying wheels video on youtube yesterday that was coverage of the Mechum auction in Fla. A Gremline went for either 42k or 28k (plus the 10% buyers premium). yeah it looked nice, and was a 304 v8, but 30 K for a gremlin?

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  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,374
    Michaell said:

    The girls are at the studio tonight, so I made myself and early dinner and flipped on the TV. Found the Barrett Jackson Scottsdale auction, and watched a bit of it.

    1961 VW Bus 23-window sold for $175K.

    I know this was commented on not long ago, but who has the money for these purchases? Lots of 6-figure transactions prices.

    They saved their money, instead of going to the Super Bowl?

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  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,067
    kyfdx said:

    Michaell said:

    The girls are at the studio tonight, so I made myself and early dinner and flipped on the TV. Found the Barrett Jackson Scottsdale auction, and watched a bit of it.

    1961 VW Bus 23-window sold for $175K.

    I know this was commented on not long ago, but who has the money for these purchases? Lots of 6-figure transactions prices.

    They saved their money, instead of going to the Super Bowl?
    People with more money than brains, numbed by too much booze and caught up in the atmosphere and hype that place creates. B-J and other big auction sale prices are an aberration.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    edited January 2023
    I wouldn't say I think it's beautiful or that the styling has stood the test of time, but I'm fascinated by this '63 Mercury Monterey S-55 4-door hardtop with Breezeway rear glass. How unusual! Not for the weak of heart in this condition of course. I always thought that Ford XL and Mercury S-55 vinyl bucket seats of that era wore like iron. They always look as-new when I see one.

    https://barnfinds.com/tag/s-55/


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  • jwm40517jwm40517 Member Posts: 284
    My father had a 63 S-55. Kids would ride on the deck lid with feet on rear seat.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,123
    edited January 2023
    I just read an 81 Z28 went for 98K at B-J. Ninety Eight Thousand Dollars. Apparently restored, maybe not by a television repairman.

    That Mercury is cool, but will be an immense labor of love if it is saved. Nice spec.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,664
    jwm40517 said:

    My father had a 63 S-55. Kids would ride on the deck lid with feet on rear seat.

    Did the breezeway window roll down all the way, or did it stick up a few inches? My Granddad traded a perfectly good '61 Galaxie 500 4-door hardtop for a '63 Monterey Custom with the Breezeway window, mostly because he wanted that window. He was constantly hauling lumber, ladders, stuff like that, and figured it would be easier to just put it through the back window, rather than strap it to the roof.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,374
    @fintail

    '81 Z28? Why?

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    Our neighbors had a '63 Monterey 4-door sedan Breezeway. I rode in it several times. I am about 99% certain at this late date, that center portion of the rear window went the whole way down.

    I didn't know this until maybe a decade ago if even that, but the '67 redesign had an optional "Breezeway" option, although the styling was identical to the regular four-door sedan, but that back window only went down a couple inches.
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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,145
    edited January 2023
    This video makes it look like it does go all the way down. Hard to tell with a white trunk in the background.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjIuopdBimE

    From wikipedia:
    "In automotive design terminology, the name breezeway has been used to describe the sometimes reverse-slanted, power-operated retractable rear window ("backlite") which, when opened even slightly, provided through ventilation. Typical models with this feature are the 1957-1958 Mercury Turnpike Cruisers and some 1963–1968 full-size Mercurys, including some Park Lanes, Montclairs, and Montereys. Although never officially referred to as a breezeway window, the same retractable rear window was standard on the 1958–1960 Continental Mark III, IV, & V, and even on their convertible body style. [1]:"


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  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,145
    edited January 2023
    Took some work to find a retractable rear "breezeway" window on a Continental
    convertible,
    but it's in Hopeful Heights, Kentucky. That's immediately south of the CVG airport.

    https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1960-lincoln-continental-6/


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  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,374
    @imidazol97 Better known as Florence... lol

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,123
    kyfdx said:

    @fintail

    '81 Z28? Why?

    Alcohol limiting inhibitions? Money laundering? Inflationary profit bonuses? Could be anything I guess. It looked like a nice car in the pic I saw, but that's a spicy meatball.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,292
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  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,470
    I believe a lot of the bidders at these auctions are on the phone or internet. Might be some tipsy rich guys being silly in the audience but I doubt that is really what is driving the prices overall.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    Back to that Merc again...first, in your video imidazol, can you believe how fast that window goes up and down?! Secondly, that car is the identical color scheme of our neighbors'!

    I saw online that only 1,203 Breezeway sedan S-55's were built in '63; man, that's low-production for a Big Three model.

    I saw commentary online (not sure how accurate) that the Breezeway was only available in the S-55 line in the 'first half of the '63 model year'. I know that it was generally available in Mercs for a few years after that; I assume the comment was regarding the four-door S-55. The implication I got was that the Marauder (which only meant fastback roof then) came out mid-'63, like the fastback big Fords. I've always wondered if the notchback and fastback Fords were built concurrently in '63, but comments I've read about the Merc make me think they were not.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    edited January 2023
    RE.: '81 Z28--I was a weird teenager, but I never wanted a second-gen Camaro. Even then I couldn't justify the rear seat or trunk space for the exterior size of the car! That said, at least the Z28's through '74 had subtle badging and such. I couldn't stand when big graphics and tape stripes became the style, and I'm sure by '81 they were still there.

    Worst Chevy graphics: '74 Nova SS. I don't love the base car, but the SS actually made it worse!
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  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,886

    @fintail said:
    I just read an 81 Z28 went for 98K at B-J. Ninety Eight Thousand Dollars. Apparently restored, maybe not by a television repairman.

    That Mercury is cool, but will be an immense labor of love if it is saved. Nice spec.

    Must have had an “ultimate set of tools”

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    andre, you met my friend and his red '63 Riviera at Hershey. He called me yesterday and said he had an incoming call from a fellow he saw as a potential customer (he reproduces some trim parts). He later told me the guy owns the '63 Riv that Natalie Wood bought new!

    Anyway, he's seriously looking at a black with red interior '64 Impala SS two-door hardtop, 327 with 4-speed. I'm generally not a fan of '64's but at least the SS doesn't have the U-shaped trim going down the side. I'm into authenticity and originality though and the pics he sent me check all my boxes.

    Who knows, maybe if he gets it he'll have that at Hershey this coming year.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    edited February 2023
    I love authenticity and recall looking at these cars when new. This is a one-year-only color ('74) that I rather like, and I seem to remember it mostly being mixed with white top and interior. I like the black.

    We've discussed before the variety of likes among the four divisions of these cars....I like the exterior the best of all four, and the interior the least of all four. I do like the door map pockets mounted diagonally at the front, top edge of the front doors. I think after '74, that feature was gone.

    Mags of the day say the Monte steering and suspension was probably the most-Euro of all four, and every one came with it standard equipment.

    I just saw it and thought that it's such a nice contrast to what's available new now. Yes, function of my age (64.5). I'm a fan of wide rocker moldings and Montes had them. I like the no hood ornament too, though in '77 the temptation was apparently too great at Chevy so they added one.

    I don't know how I feel about this--only the Chevy and Pontiac had the four-inch-longer wheelbase, which was all up-front and added nothing to useable space.


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  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 236,374

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    I like the earlier exterior trim better; I think they changed in '90 or '91. Could you get a 350 in '91? I was thinking you could. Not sure. Deep in career and ill parents and marriage by then. :)

    I like that this car isn't the d'Elegance so doesn't have the overdone (IMHO) multi-button-tufted lower seat cushions that everybody seemed to do to excess.

    Although never was a huge fan of the center-snout instrument panel, I will show my dinosaur-ness and appreciate the plastichrome inside. Take it over just plastic anytime.
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  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,292
    @kyfdx,
    This one is also currently being auctioned at BAT
    https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1991-cadillac-brougham-delegance-14/
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  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,067
    edited February 2023

    I love authenticity and recall looking at these cars when new. This is a one-year-only color ('74) that I rather like, and I seem to remember it mostly being mixed with white top and interior. I like the black.


    Aqua Blue Metallic? That's a nice shade. Interior color choices were limited and I guess the blue they offered on base cars didn't go so well with the aqua paint. Bucket seats didn't come in blue anyway so black or white would be the only decisions. I would prefer the white personally but this one looks good with the black roof.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,664
    edited February 2023
    Back in 2021, I got a shot of a Monte in that hue, at the GM show in Carlisle, PA...

    So, at least two Monte Carlo buyers in 1974 had good taste in color :)



  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,336
    edited February 2023
    I bought a new 1974 Monte Carlo Landau(with the help of my father). The European influenced ride and handling was what sealed the deal- and anyway, I couldn't afford anything that I really wanted(a Bavaria or 3.0Si). I kept it for15 years and I boosted the hp considerably.
    In 1973 the high caster European suspension was NOT standard. However, the base suspension was only installed on Monte Carlos equipped with the three speed manual- supposedly as a strategy to molify the beancounters at Chevrolet.

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  • sdasda Member Posts: 6,951
    I'm a little surprised you didn't get a GrandAm instead of the MC. It was supposed to appeal to the
    European buyer. It had the handling package standard along with a driver oriented instrument panel.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    edited February 2023
    In 1973 the high caster European suspension was NOT standard. However, the base suspension was only installed on Monte Carlos equipped with the three speed manual- supposedly as a strategy to molify the beancounters at Chevrolet.

    I'd be surprised if the 3-speed manual was even 1% of production. I believe it was all about having a loss-leader. Actually, the 'base' Monte that was only available with a 3-speed, went away after 1973. You could still get a 3-speed in '74, but it had the steering and suspension bits standard. I have never seen one, and I about lived at a Chevy dealer then. If you got automatic transmission in a '73, you got the Euro-style steering and suspension at no cost. Every Monte Carlo built through the end of the '80 model year had the wider wheels and tires and suspension bits standard (although I realize after '77 it wasn't the same exact suspension).

    I've read mag reviews of the day that said the Monte Carlo actually steered and cornered better than the Grand Am and Cutlass Salon.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    andre, that is a nice Monte but as I've said before, I just cannot stand seeing all those bumper bolts!

    I'd have had to buy the bumper strips. Not even the bumper guards, but the strips ("Deluxe Bumpers").

    My Dad's '74 and '77 Impalas had bumper guards, but not the strips, yuck.

    RE.: '73-77 Monte Carlo--I rode in my friend's parents' new '74 Landau. It was quieter, rode more steady AND smoothly, than our new '74 Impala Sport Coupe. But every time I rode in it, I found myself sitting away from the seat back. It was too reclined for me. I knew Greg here has said that wasn't Monte-specific in the Colonnades.
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  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,336
    edited February 2023
    sda said:

    I'm a little surprised you didn't get a GrandAm instead of the MC. It was supposed to appeal to the
    European buyer. It had the handling package standard along with a driver oriented instrument panel.

    Handling aside, I actually liked the Cutlass Salon best, but I got a screaming deal from my hometown Chevy dealer.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2020 C43; 2021 Sahara 4xe 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i; 2018 330i xDrive

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 17,336

    In 1973 the high caster European suspension was NOT standard. However, the base suspension was only installed on Monte Carlos equipped with the three speed manual- supposedly as a strategy to molify the beancounters at Chevrolet.

    I'd be surprised if the 3-speed manual was even 1% of production. I believe it was all about having a loss-leader. Actually, the 'base' Monte that was only available with a 3-speed, went away after 1973. You could still get a 3-speed in '74, but it had the steering and suspension bits standard. I have never seen one, and I about lived at a Chevy dealer then. If you got automatic transmission in a '73, you got the Euro-style steering and suspension at no cost. Every Monte Carlo built through the end of the '80 model year had the wider wheels and tires and suspension bits standard (although I realize after '77 it wasn't the same exact suspension).

    I've read mag reviews of the day that said the Monte Carlo actually steered and cornered better than the Grand Am and Cutlass Salon.

    It did- at least according to Road & Track.

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  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,123
    edited February 2023
    Rally wheels sure do set off the Monte. When I was a kid in the mid 80s, the wife of the neighbor behind us had a dark blue 4 light Monte, not terribly old then I guess, and the husband kept it spotless, I think he must have washed it every other day. I am pretty sure it was on rallys. I recall he drove a late run fancy trim squarebody pickup in a similar shade of blue, also kept looking like it rolled off the showroom floor.
  • sdasda Member Posts: 6,951

    sda said:

    I'm a little surprised you didn't get a GrandAm instead of the MC. It was supposed to appeal to the
    European buyer. It had the handling package standard along with a driver oriented instrument panel.

    Handling aside, I actually liked the Cutlass Salon best, but I got a screaming deal from my hometown Chevy dealer.
    I would have preferred the Salon as well. The Opel based reclining seats were a big plus. I have to admit I was really impressed how well the 73 Grand Am dad bought in around 1980 as a secondary car rode and handled. It just seemed so composed compared to other cars that size and era. I would have been happy to have the MC too.

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    I always liked the wide, corduroy seats too. The 'Opel' information surprised me, but then I guess Opel built larger sedans in Europe that we didn't see here. I always liked the row of international flags on Salons too. :)

    Wasn't a fan of the body-colored wheelcovers, but I'm sure the Super Stock wheels were available.

    I know the Grand Prix was available with cloth seating, but I'm not sure about Grand Am. I'll have to look at the brochure online.

    GM, well, the Big Three, seemed late to the dance with reclining seats. AMC and Studebaker offered them decades before.
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,073
    edited February 2023
    '74 Grand Am seats available in 'corduroy and Morrokide' per the brochure. I don't believe I've ever seen one with that. The '73 Grand Prix SJ I remember drooling over in the hometown Pontiac dealer's showroom had cloth buckets but I seem to remember them being fuzzy velour.

    Neither the Monte nor Cutlass instrument panel was very nice to my eyes....that's where the Grand Am (and Grand Prix) just blew all the other divisions out of the water IMHO...like the Grand Prix instrument panels of a decade earlier.
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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,664
    On the subject of exposed bumper bolts, what did GM do, to get rid of them for the downsized cars? My old 1980 Malibu had totally bare bumpers...no guards or rub strips or anything else that could hide anything. But I don't remember it having any exposed bolts.

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