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1960's Pontiacs



  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    Yes, there was a 2+2 convertible. Not the first year (1964) but later.

    Pontiac never let exact terminology get in the way of marketing. GTO wasn't a homologated Gran Turismo. Grand Prix never ran in one (except the stoplight variety).

    The trips could be off any Pontiac from 1958-66, not just a GTO. They sold a ton of Tri-Power Catalinas in the early '60s.
  • bhill2bhill2 Posts: 1,764
    just mean the car is designed to carry 2 passengers with the ability to carry 2 more occasionally (if they're not your favorite people and even then only for short distances)?

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv, 2001 Jaguar XK cnv, 1985 MB 380SE (the best of the lot)

  • parmparm Posts: 724
    The September 2001 issue of Car Collector magazine profiles a '65 Pontiac 2+2 convertible.

    Per the magazine, the 2+2 first showed up in 1964 as on option package on the Catalina. Again, in 1965 it was a Catalina option. In 1966 it was a distinct model of it's own. The 2+2's last hurrah was in '67, again as an option package.

    Collector Car's article profiles generally include a sidebar about recent values. Interestingly enough, they use CPI as their reference source for values.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 56,730
    Well I guess if Pontiac can call a muscle car GTO then they can call a ragtop a 2+2. It hasn't been used before or since to describe a convertible, to the best of my knowledge.

    Ah, well, no big deal.

    66 Pontiac: By "market correct" I mean "high retail", and I think with an add-on for tri-power, and an ad-on for knowing the history and owenrship (called "documented provenance" in the trade), and an add-on for low miles, you could justify going over CPI, as CPI does not factor these premiums in. Tri-power alone is often 25%.

    But I'd have to see the car. If I saw tape lines for the repaint or rusty manifolds, etc., I'd knock the car hard---as might the bidders who are bidding blind on this baby.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,025
    ...and sure enough, it shows a pic of a '65 Catalina 2+2 convertible, light blue with a white interior, and 8-lug wheels. Hey Parm, it's got Illinois plates on it!! Maybe if it's still around, it's not TOO far from ya! (I got this book for Christmas 1988 though, so God only knows where it is now!)

    The only production figures I see listed are for 1966, when 6,383 were built. They don't break it down by body style though. All other years it's just listed in with regular Catalina production, since it was just an option package in those other years.

    As for the nomenclature, I guess they called it 2+2 partly because it came standard with bucket seats up front. They still had a bench in the back though, didn't they? I mean, it wasn't 4 buckets like a '66 Charger or anything, was it?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 56,730
    Exactly. That's why I thought it made no sense.

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  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,465
    Now, here is a nice Pontiac although it's the "wrong" color...oh well, someone will like it.

    But, the gas guage doesn't work?

    Why don't people take the time and trouble to fix things like that? I mean, they spend thousands of dollars on the car but don't fix a lousy gas guage?

    And, brother, that Poncho NEEDS a functioning gas guage! Open up all of those carbs for a block, and you'll use three gallons!
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,025
    ...but then I didn't spend an arm and a leg on the car, either! It does at least give me a warning though, when I'm running low. Normally, you can't see the needle on the gauge at all, but when the level drops low enough, it'll drift lazily back and forth across the face of the gauge.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    IIRC it's usually just the sender but you've got to drop the tank to replace it. Not a big deal and also a good time to chemically clean the inside and seal it. Most old cars have a nice layer of rust and sediment from gas in the bottom of the tank. It was a real problem with two cars I had. The carb doesn't get enough gas.
  • parmparm Posts: 724

    With a little less than 2 days to go, the bidding on this '65 2+2 convertible is up to $13,952 (and 26 cents!). So, where's the price ceiling on this car?

    Pretty cool color combination if you ask me. The non-original tri-power set up, automatic transmission and manually operated top (weren't power tops standard on all full-size GM convertibles back then?) probably keeps the hard-core muscle car guys &/or collectors away and thus keeps the value from attaining orbit status.

    This car seems to look good in all the right places. If only it had a 6-way power drivers seat!

  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    I like the color too. It's looks good on the car and it's not a common color, although I'd guess that detracts from value, maybe a lot.

    Fixing the turn signal indicator involves removing the steering wheel which requires a puller. The top was probably power but the hydraulics are leaking so the top has been disconnected from the raising mechanism--very common. Small stuff but all this plus the gas gauge suggests the current owner isn't a perfectionist.

    What's with painting the 8-lugs black? Aside from that the car looks good, or as good as you can tell from the photos.

    If anything I think it's the color that holds the car back. Color might be the most important thing, especially to guys who just want a convertible, not necessarily a piece of Pontiac history. Different is not necessarily good.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,025
    ...more and more like mine! My power top doesn't work either. The motor will run, but all the hydraulic fluid leaked out years ago, before I bought it. My turn signal works sporadically. Sometimes it'll blink when I turn it on and sometimes it just stays on solid, with no flashing.

    I do like that color too. Actually, I think my Mom's '66 was kind of that color. I don't know, it's been ages since I've seen a pic of it. It mght've been more of a goldish or champagne, but I recall kind of a greenish tint.
  • carnut4carnut4 Posts: 574
    That's definitely a nice car parm. It has a fun factor way better than any Cad convertible. I think if you were to go for anything other than the 62-64 Cad, this Pontiac might be the best deal of all. That's unless you could find a nice Electra for much less.
    I wonder where the bidding will stop.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    Beware the unusual color.
  • parmparm Posts: 724
    I've been in contact with the seller and he said the buckets seats have no adjustment - other than the sliding track. Bummer!

    The buckets seats are cool to look at but, I suspect they're way too upright for me.

    Speedshift, what's up with the color? Sure, it's not "retail red", but I rather like the metallic green. Then again, I'd prefer bucket seats too. Of course, if GM would've made 6-way power bucket seats back then, I'd be all over them.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    I like the color but I found that buyers don't like to stray from the usual colors. Just my experience and not the final word on the subject, but if the car sells for less than you expected I'll bet that's it.

    I don't know if it's that most people only like certain colors (could well be, that's why the same basic colors tend to hang around) or if they're afraid someone will say "that's a weird color".

    Colors go in and out of fashion but that particular shade of green has been out longer than it's been in--how many cars have you seen that color? It's kind of '60s trendy and trendy doesn't usually have staying power. Like that Lime Gold that Mustangs and Cougars came in back then and hasn't been seen since. Or like the Avocado Green and Harvest Gold that instantly identify appliances from the late '60s.

    Maybe it's just me. Color is my life ;-).
  • ghuletghulet Posts: 2,628
    I rather like the greeny golds, seafoams and the like that were found on late '60s cars. I'm tired of red, white and black convertibles, but that's just me. Of course, owning one and having to resell it is probably another story.

    Parm, GM did sell power buckets (driver's side only, tilting, which indicates to me that the fore and aft are still manual) for the '65 big Pontiacs ($71 option). Good luck finding one. I imagine it's even more rare than most of the options that you find on fairly 'loaded' Pontiacs of the era (tilt wheel, a/c, power windows, 8-tracks with reverb, etc.).
  • wq59bwq59b Posts: 61
    A few corrections:

    The 8-lug rims being black on the e-Bay car is correct for '64-68 8-lugs.

    You could also get the 2+2 option on the convertible in '64 (the 2+2 was available as a convert or 2-dr hardtop in all 4 model/option years).

    "GTO" Tri-Powers can indeed be used on full-size Pontiacs, as they both use Pontiac engines. The only diff is mechanical vs. vacuum linkage (which is why you are a fool to pay a premium for a "GTO Tri-Power" over one from a Bonneville). The qualifier is not model interchanges, but year interchanges. '65 & 66 (and later) heads can swap Tri-Ps, '64 and earlier are different and will not bolt up to post-65 heads.
  • ghuletghulet Posts: 2,628
    I understand now that the '64 and earlier is one particular setup and the '65-66 is another, but I'm under the impression (from some of the ad links posted here) that the setup is the same (year for year) for the 389 and the 421. In other words, does the 389 setup fit the 421 (given the year differentiations noted above)? Please clarify.

    Otherwise, the assertion I thought I read earlier that the 2+2 tri-power is 'the same' (given that GTO was offered with 389 only, 2+2 had 421s only) is obviously wrong.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 56,730
    John Gunnell's Pontiac Buyer's Guide says that 19,672 Catalinas were equipped with the 2+2 option from 1965-67. So, by American standards, fairly rare.

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  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    The linkage differences wouldn't prevent swapping--maybe I should qualify that with "as far as I know" :-). In fact the same year car could have either mechanical (sticks) or vacuum (automatics) linkage.

    I know the '65 heads were redesigned for better breathing. Is the problem with swapping manifolds just a port mismatch, or is it something like a bolt pattern or coolant passage mismatch?

    My understanding is that Pontiac used only two versions of its cylinder head and that one was used on base 389s and 421s, the other on hi-perf 389s and 421s. This would suggest that 389 and 421 intakes are interchangeable.

    I can't remember ever seeing black painted 8 lugs but there's a black one shown in the '66 GTO brochure as an option. They were never available on GTOs but I'll assume the photo shows the correct '66 version available on the fullsizers.
  • wq59bwq59b Posts: 61
    389 & 421 Tri-Power set-ups will interchange (as long as the head's year break is adhered to). In other words, there is only 1 Tri-P intake manifold part number per year. Carbs have slightly different part numbers indicating either manual/auto or 389/421, but they too all interchange. Another qualifier tho is that the '66 Tri-Ps have larger bore center carbs- obviously they only mate to '66 intakes.

    Yes 2+2s are relatively rare: 64: 7998 units, 65: 11521, 66: 6383, 67: 1768.

    "...the same year car could have either mechanical (sticks) or vacuum (automatics) linkage."
    True, many performance-minded full-sizers upgrade their vacuum linkage for mechanical.

    "I know the '65 heads were redesigned for better breathing. Is the problem with swapping manifolds just a port mismatch, or is it something like a bolt pattern or coolant passage mismatch?"
    All of the above, I believe... definitely bolt patterns.

    "My understanding is that Pontiac used only two versions of its cylinder head and that one was used on base 389s and 421s, the other on hi-perf 389s and 421s. This would suggest that 389 and 421 intakes are interchangeable."
    Pontiac had way more than 2 heads, but they all shared the same bore spacing & bolt patterns, so they all interchanged. In fact, (not to further confuse things) the blocks will accept heads from more years than the heads will accept intakes. But to answer your post- as stated above; there was only 1 intake PN per year (1 4bbl, 1 3x2, etc- excluding race parts).

    "I can't remember ever seeing black painted 8 lugs but there's a black one shown in the '66 GTO brochure as an option. They were never available on GTOs but I'll assume the photo shows the correct '66 version available on the fullsizers."
    The GTO brochure 8-lug was never released and I have never heard that any exist today. They should look radically different (if I recall they have 3 fins between each lug nut) vs. the e-Bay 2+2's 8-lugs.
  • speedshiftspeedshift Posts: 1,598
    Yes, the brochure 8 lugs have three fins between each lug nut. Who is this, Jim Wangers? :-)
  • parmparm Posts: 724

    $14,100 didn't take it (at least officially). Interesting that the seller reduced his reserve during the bidding process. If $14,100 did meeting the reserve, I shudder to think what the original reserve was.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 56,730
    Well, great, now he still ownes it. Lotta good putting it up for auction did him. It was a very fair bid, he should have taken it. There is no more money in that car IMO. It's a very weak color, it has a few problems, it's non-matching #s, not a show car by any means, and he wants how much more? 18 bids and a ton of lookers---the market has spoken if you ask me.

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  • wq59bwq59b Posts: 61
    I disagree. As someone earlier questioned- the '65 2+2 auction did not state 'non-matching numbers', only that the Tri-P wasn't original. '64-67 Pontiac blocks didn't have VIN stamps, so you're left with engines & date codes alone for verification. The Tri-P in no way is a detriment; most people would prefer Tri-P and a complete yet unrestored set brings $800-- you could sell it and set-up 3 fully functional 4bbls for that. The color is more interesting- reds & blues bore me. Especially red. And from the pics it's local show car condition at least. Check out that die-cast tail panel- not a pit to be seen and 'impossible' to find NOS.
    While a 421 HO and a 4-spd would be worth more, even a few thou higher than 14K is still a fair 'market' price for a relatively nice and rare piece.
  • parmparm Posts: 724

    I'm generally not too much into resto-mods (particularly a hardtop), but this one looks pretty neat. If you can believe what you read, sounds like its been fairly well sorted out.

    However, I do love the quote "BEING A PONTIAC, IT DRIPS A LITTLE OIL AROUND THE REAR MAIN". What's being a Pontiac have to do with it?

    Either it needs fixed or it doesn't, period.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 56,730
    RE: the previous auction result----I think the ad states that the block is not from the car. Well, the guy can try again if he thinks there is more money in it. But with 18 bidders and hundreds and hundreds of lookers, I don't know where he thinks this imaginary buyer is, who is going to pay more.

    It's the buyers who set the market after all, not the owner's opinion, or mine or yours. Only votes count are the ones that comes from the checkbook. They all voted NO over $14,100.

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  • wq59bwq59b Posts: 61

    Yeah, that sure looks via pics to be a very nice one (I have a soft spot for '64s, having owned 3). Note that the A/C is aftermarket, not factory.

    ""BEING A PONTIAC, IT DRIPS A LITTLE OIL AROUND THE REAR MAIN". What's being a Pontiac have to do with it? Either it needs fixed or it doesn't, period."

    Pontiac's do tend to leak at the rear main seal- tho by no means do they all (none of my 3 did). It's a minor annoyance, especially compared to removing the engine & trans to fix. Many people would rather put a mat on the garage floor and carry a quart or 2 with them instead of footing the $$$ bill for R&R.

    I get your point, Mr S, about "they all voted no", but that was only the people who happened to click on that auction during those 7 days. Those are not neccessarily all the potential future owners of the car... or in other words '100% of that car's market'. One 7-day auction cannot establish the true average market value of a given make/year/model of vehicle. Don't forget a great many of the auction's counter's hits were very likely multiples by the same parties- so even the hits reflects less potentials than it shows.

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,025
    My '67 Catalina does that too, just a little. My mechanic said it would be best to just leave it alone, unless it got really bad. There's something about it that'supposed to be pretty hard/expensive to repair. I think he said something like "rope seal" or something like that?
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