New S40/V50

cermedes

I read on another site that Volvo has finished retooling the Gent factory and is already making pre-production models of the new S40/V50 cars.
Does anybody have more information in this matter? For example, what these cars will look like or what it means for them to be Focus II based: better or worse than current model?
The cars will be introduced in Frankfurt in September I suppose.

The question now is will they come out in the US as MY 04 cars in the fall or not?

c

kogyo

Automotive News reported the new Volvo S40/V40 series is supposed to debut this fall as a 2004 model. It will use the same platform as the new Ford Focus. Styling is based on the now familiar S60 and S80 series.

cermedes

thanks kogyo

I'm surprised, that there have not been any pictures of the new S40 on the net anywhere.
Did automotive news say anything about the available engines eg. will there be a nice turbo?

u

kogyo

Try the website http://volvospy.com/spy/s40v50/s40v50.php. There are artist sketches and a listing of possible engines.

There was a photoshop of the v50 but I can't remember what site it was on. Hope this helps.

kogyo

I found the site try http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=227850

Remember - this is a photoshop but I hope the sedan looks this good.

sully242

Given the likelihood of using the Ford Focus platform should I jump all over the 2003 at $4,000 under invoice?

cermedes

sully

The next generation S40 is based on the NEXT generation Ford Focus - not the current one. And even the current one is actually a great handling car.
And another thing: the current S40 shares a platform with the european Mitsubishi Carisma - one of the least carismatic cars for sale today.
I truely believe the next S40 will be better in every way. European Fords are actually really good cars. E.g. the current, german-built Ford Mondeo is at least as good as a Passat. And the Focus is no worse than any Golf.

stickguy

actaully, i think you have it backwards. The Focus will be based on the V40 platform, which is also going to be used for the next Mazda protege. More like they are all being developed at the same time on the same basic platform.

So no, the Volvo won't be tainted by being based on a Focus. The new car should be a huge leap forward, since the current platform is nothing special.

jchan2

Will Volvo hold the line on pricing or will it raise the price up a little bit? Any photos would be excellent! Post them on this discussion!

stickguy

they really can't raise the price much, or they will bump into the pricing on the S60. Not that the current car goes anywhere near MSRP these days.

forlife1

The all new X3 will arrive on the shores in November 2003 and it is looking really nice but what about the Volvo XC50 the one that is suppose to compete against the BMW X3. There has not been any information on it Volvo is keeping it under tight security. Not even edmunds has it listed in the future vechicles forecast section will Volvo be able to compete with the new X3 when it arrives. Anyone with info please reply.

stickguy

there was a link on another thread recently (slast day or so) with a pic of an XC50. Quite cool looking, similar to a XC90.

Look at the XC90 thread postings for the last couple of days.

kogyo

From Sweden's auto motor & sport

http://w1.313.telia.com/~u31303214/V50.jpg

creakid1

Why do you have to be ashamed of driving a European Ford? Even the so-so early '70's Cortina/Tunus is some beautiful sculpture I'd urge Ford or anyone else to re-create in modern-day form just like the Mini & Beetle! Even Rolls & other European cars are unreliable anyway.

Mazda3, a reliable Japanese car based on an excellent-dynamic European car(the Focus II), is the ideal combination.

Volvo S40/V40, an unreliable Dutch-built car based on a disappointing-dynamic Japanese car, is the worst possible combination & is the 1st thing the new boss Ford had to get rid off his mind as soon as possible! So Ford is taking the NECESSARY action to do so, while all other Volvo designs get to stay!

Many of your snob-appeal attitude is causing Ford to mislead the public that the new C-platform design is the combined work of Volvo and... Volvo probably only contributed some underhood front-end packaging for crashworthiness.

The new C-platform Focus II is a genuine Ford ingenuity! Patented by Ford! & Mazda replaced the crude Ford drivetrain.

FYI, years ago BMW almost adopted the Focus platform for its future fwd-compact project!

Recent April Automobile magazine called the Focus SVT "almost-M3 like" in important/expensive areas and its ability to absorb road bumps "like a 3-series"!

VW already hired the "famous" Focus designer & pretty much "copied" the rear half of the Focus platform for the next Golf/Jetta/Passat!

So, be proud of the new S40/V50's "Focus" origin! Or go find some other car. From the side-view drawing of the new S40 sedan, you can see the present Focus sedan's "beautiful silhouette"! & that explained why the superior Ford design contributed so much more comfortable interior space, enough to put the Volvo S60 to shame! The Volvo C-platform version might get better quietness than the Ford/Mazda's, though.

Remember in the early '90's when Toyota advertised the new Camry as "Lexus technology"? What kind of crap is "Lexus technology"? Is there such thing as "Lexus technology"? These Lexus LS400/GS300/SC300/ES300 were just called Toyota Celcius/Aristo/Soarer/Windom in Japan! Back then, the name "Lexus" was just a "tourist trap" for the American (& maybe some 3rd-world countries') blind suckers. These Acura/Infiniti "snob brands" don't even exist in Britain, etc.!

creakid1

I just read Brit's Auto Express Weekly special issue today. Volvo will spawn several different C-platform cars to compete w/ every 3-series model ranging from the M3, convertible, to the X3 SUV.

This platform-based vehicles are light-weight enough to achieve excellent handling/dynamic. The sporty C50 coupe(or hatch) will get up to 200hp 5-cyl turbo w/ S60-type AWD/active-damper system. Eventually there will be a 300hp version.

volvomax

Actually will get a 220 hp turbo 5 for the US.

The P1 chassis is a VOLVO chassis, not a Ford chassis.
Mazda and Ford will use lesser versions of the chassis for their products.
Yes there will be a small SUV, a hardtop convertible, a sedan and a wagon form the P1 chassis.

qbrozen

i hope this is true. A hardtop convertible? This is in the volvo line, right? when? when? when?

volvomax

Probably 2005

libertycat

Wake up, everyone. I have a question. Is the Volvo S40 going to compete more against the IS300 or ES300? I assume ES300 because S60 fills the IS300 spot. I think the styling of the 2005 S40/V50 is wonderful!!!

libertycat

Will you please rename the discussion since we know "when" they are coming? Or is this too much trouble for you?

qbrozen

I assume you must have reversed those. The IS is smaller than the ES. Therefore, the S40 would be comparable to the IS while the S60 is already comparable to the ES.

libertycat

The IS300 is sporty like the S60 and the S40 is more luxury-focused like the ES300.

qbrozen

Are you saying the S60 isn't luxury focused?

Heck, I can get a current S40 or S60 with cloth interior, no moonroof, and a manual transmission. Not exactly my idea of luxury. Same with the ES and IS (only the ES has no manual available).

The 2.4 S60 is anything but sporty.

I think most people would cross-shop these based on their size as they fall in there respective lineups.

I could see possibly cross-shopping the IS with the T5 (if you are looking for sporty, then you are looking for a stick, IMHO). But cross-shopping the ES with the S40? Not likely. As much as I'm a Volvo fan, I just don't find them to be in the same class. And I would bet most ES owners would tell you they wouldn't be caught dead in the cheap Volvo.

libertycat

I'm saying the IS300 competes with the S60 as a luxury sport. The S40 doesn't and probably won't lean towards sportiness, so it will probably be a luxury ES competitor. But you never see an S60 or ES with cloth, yet I see IS300s with YUCKY ecscaine (looks and feels like cloth) a LOT more than leather and the S40 currently isn't really a luxury sedan so you will see those with cloth UNTIL the redesign makes it a true entry-level luxury sedan. Also, most people don't cross-shop by size. I wonder how many people consider the Corolla and the IS300. Or how many people consider the S80 while looking at a comparably sized S Class.

qbrozen

but your points are exactly what I'm talking about. You hardly ever see an S60 or ES with cloth, and neither the IS or S40 is commonly perceived as luxury. Therefore, that is the more common comparison. I certainly understand what you are saying regarding performance numbers, but only if comparing automatics. Granted, I haven't kept up on any improvements with the IS, but when it first came out, it really wasn't much of a performer. But the low end stick S60 won't hold a candle to it and, likewise, the IS doesn't compare to the T5. So I don't see the performance comparison either.

You yourself just recently claimed Volvo doesn't have an S-class competitor. So, no, you are correct, not many folks would consider an S80 while shopping an S-class. And, no, they aren't comparing an economy car to an entry-luxo car either.

libertycat

Volvo should build the S100 (S Class competitor)and there is a petition going on if you are interested. Anyway, you don't seem to understand the next S40 will be luxury unlike the current one.

qbrozen

You are right. I don't understand that because its not here yet and I have yet to see it. Priced as much as the S60?? How can it possibly sell? What would be the advantage?

Kirstie_H

I don't believe Volvo intends for the S40 to be luxury; rather, near luxury. It's only going to be available as a 4-cylinder, standard with cloth seats. It will come with slightly fewer standard features than my former VW VR6, so I don't see how it can properly be classed as luxury.

volvomax

Will be powered by 5 cyl engines for the US, top engine will be a 220 hp turbo 5.
Pricing will creep up slightly from the current S40.
The base S60 will probably suffer with this new S40 in the lineup and will likely be withdrawn from the US market.
The upper level S60's will remain.

qbrozen

i was hoping you'd chime in. 220 hp S40 sounds pretty good to me.

Was the base S60 a hot seller anyway? Either way, I'm not so sure S40 sales would hurt it unless they increase the size. Let's face it, its a tight fit. If a loaded up S40 was around the same price as a base S60, I could see them coexisting just fine. But who knows. The american buying public is a fickle bunch.

Any expected timeframes on these changes? Heck, who am I kidding? I'm just waiting on that retractable hardtop convertible you mentioned a little while ago. woohoo!

volvomax

The base S60 is not a hot seller, so losing it won't hurt.
For 2004 an S60 2.4 w/ the Prem and sport pkgs is only $1000 less than an S60 2.5T w/ the same equip.

The 2005 S40 is supposed to be unveiled in Sept at one of the Auto shows, Frankfurt I believe.
Production commences in Nov-Dec and the first cars will make it to the US in May-June of 04.
Expect the V50 to arrive in the fall of 04.
Sadly, no word on the uveiling or arrival of the C40-C60 or whatever they plan to call it.

qbrozen

A $1000 engine option really isn't uncommon. Heck, it could even be considered a bit pricey. When I bought my Dodge Dakota back in '97, I only had to pony up about $450-$550 to step up from the V6 to the V8. I'm not sure exactly what the purchase difference was to get a V6 626 in '98, but at trade time it made a $1K difference (I do believe it was less than that at purchase time).

Question is whether such a choice should exist when you have the low sales of the S60. I say no. Take that choice out of the lineup and save a few bucks behind the scenes. What's your take on it?

volvomax

I would't shed any tears if we lost the 2.4 engine.
Volvo actually has a better engine for Europe, a 2.0L turbo 5 that I would like much better.
The 2005 S40 will cover the price leader market for Volvo so I would expect the S60 turbos to move upmarket in terms of equipment and options.

creakid1

"If a loaded up S40 was around the same price as a base S60, I could see them coexisting just fine. But who knows. The american buying public is a fickle bunch."

I had to argue w/ some "old hags" how the more expensive 850 was a superior car w/ superior design like more rear stretch-out leg/toe room than the 940.

Although strangely, I found the 850/S70 less comfortably riding than the 700/900 series, which is also less comfortably riding than the 200 series!

Anyway, the S60 no longer got roomy back seat like the 850/S70, & the Focus II-based new S40 does. & therefore can get people confused how ES300-ish(rather than IS300-ish) it is in terms of back seat room. This is funny. LOL.

Personally, I'd feel insulted if some one sez my new S40 is in the same class as the nerdy ES300. ;-)

& I really doubt the Focus II-based S40/V50 can achieve the cocoon-like level of quietness found in the ES300.

There will be redesigned IS300 & BMW 3-series, & that's the class the Focus-dynamic S40/V50 belongs. Don't let the interior room confuse you - RWD just can't cut it. ;-)

volvomax

We had the S70 and S90 coexisting, the S70 outsold the S90 by about 20-1.
People liked the more modern S70 better.
Plus you had more choices with the S70 and a better price structure.
The only way the S60 survives is to be moved upmarket and be given more features.
For example the new I6.

qbrozen

take out the I5?! Blasphemer!!

If they wanna give a dual-turbo I6 in its place, then maybe I'll forgive.

volvomax

Its coming

qbrozen

yer gettin' me all excited.

creakid1

No wonder the back seat is roomier than the S60/V70.

& 5-cyl only for N.A. Plus turbo for the T5. Auto only for FWD models. AWD only for the manual - Sounds like the S40/V50/C50 is serious competing w/ the RWD-handling BMW 3-series as Volvo claimed. So I hope it also got the advance AWD feature as found in the upcoming BMW X3 - placing power rather than brake to counter the understeer/oversteer, & perhaps w/ some programing in the computer, either factory or aftermarket, to also provide an oversteer mode for drifters, but then that might require the use of limited-slip-differential.

jchan2

I hope that this car doesn't take away the base S60. Some of us like the choice between a loaded compact model and a stripped down midsize or bigger model.

robr2

Except that the S60 is a compact - not a midsize.

qbrozen

i disagree. A compact? That means you think the S40 is a subcompact?

Ah... I've looked and now see that Edmunds lists both the S60 and S40 as compacts. That definitely blurs the lines when you have 2 distinctly different sized cars from the same manufacturer classified the same way.

Not to mention that the Mazda 6 is listed as midsize while the Protege is compact. This is the same difference between the S60 and S40. If the S60 is compact, then there are several cars Edmunds needs to move down alongside it that are currently listed as midsize.

robr2

It's not the manufacturer that states the classification - the EPA has standards for that. The EPA lists the S60 as well as the S40 as compacts based on interior volume. Now I don't know the exact range for the classification, but I presume the S60 is on the higher end. But IMHO, the rear seat of the S60 is tight. Even the BMW 540 is considered a compact.

Then again, the EPA lists the Focus wagon as a mid-size - same as the Taurus.

See: http://www.fueleconomy.com/feg/findacar.htm

qbrozen

I know the manufacturer doesn't, but why then does EPA list the 5-series as compact but Edmunds lists it as midsize. Seems like the classifications can change based on opinion. So if these 2 sources can differ, than I differ from them.

i can't view that site (at work), how does it classify the Mazda6? That is within an inch or 2 of the S60.

So what is a subcompact?? Is that even a classification anymore? Its really silly that the Hyundai Accent and Kia Rio are in the same group as the S60.

robr2

"I know the manufacturer doesn't, but why then does EPA list the 5-series as compact but Edmunds lists it as midsize." I guess we'd have to ask Edmunds.

Following are the interior volume measurements according to the EPA:

M6 111 cubic ft - midsize
S60 94 cubic ft - compact
330 91 cubic ft - compact
530 93 cubic ft - compact

Heck - I'm driving a rental Lancer right now and it has 94 cubic ft - more than either BMW!!

Dimensions according to Edmunds:

M6 187L x 57H x 70W x 105WB
S60 180L x 56H x 71W x 107WB
330 176L x 56H x 69W x 107WB
530 188L x 57H x 71W x 111WB

jchan2

Some of us still like the choice between a low end compact (in terms of size) that's fully loaded and a stripped down, larger compact. Kinda silly the Chevrolet Cavalier has to share a rating with a BMW 540i while the Ford Focus gets to keep the Honda Accord company.

robr2

Acutally the Focus sedan and hatch are considered compact - only the Focus wagon is a midsize.

qbrozen

you brought up the wagon. So, if its all based on interior volume, than no wagon can be a compact.

On another note, its rather impressive how much interior volume there is on the M6 compared to the physically longer 5-series. But if you've been in the M6, I think you'd find a different story. My Volvo (s70) seems massive in comparison. Go figure.

robr2

Actually the EPA lists small wagons (Jetta, Vibe, 3 & 5 Touring, V40, Impreza, A4 Avant, MB C Class) and midsize wagons (Focus, Taurus, V70, E Class, 9-5, Legacy/Outback, Passat, RX330, A6 Avant).

Back on topic - I understand the S40/V50 may be larger inside than the current S60/V70. We'll see in Frankfurt I guess.

jchan2

My understanding is that if the S40 grows in size but not in price, we'll have no buyers signing on for S60s and V70s. Especially if Volvo decides to stick AWD on S40s and V40s and XC50s.

qbrozen

when is frankfurt anyway? isn't it this month? or is it next month?

if it grows past the S60, then there will be no need for the S60.