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Hybrid vs Diesel



  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    measures, not the ENTIRE BIG PICTURE which is all the OTHER harmful chemicals that exist in more damaging quantities in diesel fuel than in gasoline exhaust.

    The components of diesel exhaust (DE) emissions are a public concern for the following reasons:

    Emissions from diesel engines include over 40 substances that are listed by the EPA as hazardous air pollutants. Components of DE contain potential cancer causing substances such as arsenic, benzene, formaldehyde, nickel, and PAHs. The diesel particulate matter (DPM) is very small (90% are less than 1um by mass), making DPM easy to respire into the deep lung. DPM has hundreds of chemicals adsorbed to their surfaces, including many known or suspected carcinogens. There are many irritants and toxic chemicals in the gaseous phase of DE. Oxides of nitrogen, component of urban smog, are in the gaseous phase of DE. There is a likelihood that people in both ambient and occupational settings can be exposed to DE. DE has the potential to cause adverse health effects including cancer, pulmonary and cardiovascular diseases. Studies show workers exposed to higher levels of DE are more likely to develop lung cancer. In 1990, the state of California identified DE as a chemical known to cause cancer. The International Agency for Research on Cancer has concluded that DE probably causes cancer in humans. The EPA has proposed classifying DE as a probable human carcinogen.

    Acute Effects of Diesel Emmission Exposure:
    Workers exposed to high concentrations of diesel exhaust have reported the following short-term health symptoms:

    irritation of the eyes, nose and throat,
    weakness, numbness, and tingling in extremities,
    chest tightness,
    wheezing, and

    I'm sorry, Troy, but there are no studies that link these sorts of health issues to gaoline exhaust.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    According to the Santa Barbara County Air Pollution Control District (APCD) 2001 Clean Air Plan, 1999 base year NOx emissions from marine vessels were more than those from all on-road motor vehicles, and comprised just over a third of the total NOx emissions inventory. There is a growing awareness internationally of the significance of shipping emissions. Ships are increasing in number, size, carrying capacity and speed, while fuel use is increasing proportionally. In addition, residual heavy fuel oil – the most common fuel used in large ship engines – is decreasing in quality, while a greater number of engines are being designed to use this lower-quality fuel.

    This makes the pollution from Modern vehicles (those built since 1980s) INSIGNIFICANT compared to the major sources of pollution. These ships on our rivers and coastal harbors burn bunker oil which is as much as 3000 ppm sulfur. Most dirty diesel is less than 500 ppm with the 2006 mandated ULSD it will be 15-30 ppm. The ships that are causing much of the smog in coastal CA. are not included in that mandate. I don't know how to make it any clearer for those with blinders, that think our environmental regulators at the EPA & CARB are doing a bang up job. In short they are the ones that SUCK not the vehicles that save fuel by burning diesel. People in California are paying the price with this smog so people in Arizona can get there cheap TVs & Hondas from overseas.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    I'm sorry, Troy, but there are no studies that link these sorts of health issues to gaoline exhaust.

    My understanding is that only the CARB states have the cleaner gasoline. That is how they get the higher EPA ratings. I know the 45 states gas has a higher sulfur content. That is why cars in those states stink. You really notice it when you leave CA and go to AZ or NV.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    But the issue on hand is cars, and related technologies. We are not going to talk about oil burning factories, are we?

    That said, at a gas station couple of days ago here in TX:
    87 grade: $1.90
    91 grade: $2.00
    93 grade: $2.10
    Diesel: $2.19

    So a 15% "premium" over regular unleaded gasoline for diesel continues. If ULSD adds another dime to the tag, the premium grows to 20%.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    So a 15% "premium" over regular unleaded gasoline for diesel continues. If ULSD adds another dime to the tag, the premium grows to 20%.

    The very minimum increase in efficiency of the diesel over gas ICE is 25% so you still have a net gain. Plus our dependence on foreign oil will never be resolved with gas burning cars. Even with the lousy ethanol E85 it only saves 15%. Then you get 25% worse mileage. Where with B100 biodiesel you can tell the Middle East to drink their oil while you refill at McDonald's. Gas engines do not offer any real alternatives where diesel engines do... I still think all electric is the best or serial diesel electric.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    Just for comparison ULSD at the SOCO station I use sells for $2.529 two weeks ago. They were selling Premium unleaded for $2.599. I use the ECD-1 in my little tractor and can tell no difference, except the puff of smoke when it starts is gone.

    Gas Diesel price comparison...
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    Some of the extra cost of ULSD my be built in already but my question is this, lets imagine its 2007 and you have a new TDI designed for and burning ULSD, how clean will it be compared to a gas burner or hybrid of the same vintage ?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    The only info I can find is on the European diesels. My understanding is the new MB, BMW, Accord and VW diesels all pass the very stringent Euro4 emissions test. As far as Greenhouse gas those diesel cars exceed all but a few of the hybrids and CNG vehicles. The CNG Civic is cleaner than any of the hybrids. If that is you goal go CNG. A lot of cab drivers use CNG cars in San Diego.

    For any vehicle certified to better than Euro 4 emission standard, the noxious emissions score is 9. To achieve this score a vehicle must already be certified to ADR 79/01 in Australia.
  • diesels are already cleaner than gasoline in every category except NOx: - 2000 VW Manual Beetle (grams/mile)

    ----- Gas TDI
    NOx 1.3 2.7
    PMs ----- ----- (not measured)
    CO2 7.0 4.7
    CO 1.10 0.01
    HC 0.15 0.00 (evaporative)

    VW TDI diesels have already been promoted by's green score:

    2000 = 1
    2005 = 6

    I fully expect to see 2007 = 9 with the European clean-diesel technologies. In other words, equal to a gasoline car.

  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    I deleted a few of the "no, you don't listen" "No, you listen" posts

    They are attacking and insulting. Either agree to disagree and move on or stop posting. The bickering needs to stop.
  • "The components of diesel exhaust (DE) emissions are a public concern for the following reasons (snip)"

    Every flaw you list is a flaw of gasoline too. Gasoline has PMs. Gasoline has carcinogens. Gasoline is NOT clean.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    For those truly interested in cutting loose from foreign oil, Biodiesel is the answer. Nothing else on the US market comes close.

     Dr. Bernd Pischetsrieder, chairman of the board of management of Volkswagen, remarked that while Volkswagen will eventually offer hybrids, it won’t be soon.

    Speaking to journalists in London, prior to the SMMT Annual Dinner, where he was guest speaker, he said: “We are not interested in making cars which don’t make money.”

    Biodiesel, he suggested, is the short-term answer and confirmed that his company was working in this area.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    In the battle of Hybrid versus Diesel, electrictroy has posted that the EU rated the diesel Lupo the "world's cleanest car" back in 2002.

    Does anyone have a link to any page that says that? I have googled my tail off trying to confirm or deny that statement, and cannot find a thing either way.

    I would REALLY be interested to know:

    A) if they really declared such, and
    B) what their criteria was.

    I can't for the life of me see how the emissions of a diesel could ever be declared "cleanest in the world."

    Any links or ideas, anyone?
  • I HAD a link, but it's dead. The EU apparently deleted the webpage as "old news".

    As for criteria, the European Union measures all the same values we do (NOx, CO, HC), but they also include CO2, because they are obligated to meet the Kyoto Treaty. And with the Lupo 3L TDI's 90mpg economy, it's CO2 is only *half* as much as a Prius or Civic.

    So the CO2 is likely the reason it won.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    Volkswagen claims that the Lupo 3L can actually do better than 3 liters per 100 kilometers of consumption, although we were not able to test this as we were limited to 3 days of in-town driving since the low-sulphur fuel required for this car is not available here and VW only had limited supplies. None-the-less, we never saw less than 68 miles per gallon during all our around town driving - pretty impressive.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I suppose since the 2002 champeenship (unconfirmed) the Lupo fell back into the pack for the EU award in 2003 and 2004?

    So far I have seen NOTHING ANYWHERE on the web that says anything about the EU awarding "worlds cleanest car" to anyone in 2002, 2003, or 2004.

    Did they discontinue the award after 2002?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Perhaps the standards have changed now. Although not exactly EU, but Civic Hybrid dubbed the cleanest vehicle in UK. Prius came in second, and Vauxhall Corsa 1.3 CTDi is third. What happened to Lupo?

    Here is a link.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    The Lupo is no doubt very clean for a diesel. See this volkswagon PDF file:

    But in all their bragging on the Lupo in that document, they NEVER say anything about it ever being rated "cleanest car in the world" which you know the marketing types who produce reports like this would have jumped all over....
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    Wolfsburg. Gerhard Plattner, the Austrian journalist and long-distance specialist, has once more entered the Guiness book of records driving a Volkswagen. At the beginning of November, the world champion in economic driving covered a distance of 4,683 kilometres through 20 European countries in a standard Lupo 3L TDI. He achieved his aim of carrying out this journey - which started in Oslo, Norway and finished in The Hague in The Netherlands - with just 100 euros in fuel costs without any problem at all. In fact, all he eventually needed was 90.94 euros, which corresponds to an average consumption of 2.78 litres / 100 km.

    Gerhard Plattner completed his first successful 100 euro eco-tour in August this year. In a standard Polo TDI, he drove 3,129 kilometres through 15 European countries. His average fuel consumption over this distance was just 3.95 litres / 100 kilometres with fuel costs of 90.89 euros.

    Both of these record journeys were by no means carried out at a snail's pace. The average speed of the first eco-tour was 81.69 km/h and the average speed of the Lupo 3L TDI was 80.76 km/h. The eco-tours were accompanied and monitored by independent experts.

    The Volkswagen Lupo 3L TDI was ranked first for the fourth time in a row in the environmental car ranking of the prestigious German institute "Öko-Trend". This repeated success was achieved, alongside the extremely low consumption figures, through low levels of emissions and also the production line which is oriented around ecological aspects.
  • When VW drove the Lupo TDI around the world, they averaged 99 miles per gallon.


    And practical. We're not talking about a 2-seat car here (insight), or something from the Jetsons (the 1 Liter/240 mpg car), but a 4-seat car with styling similar to a Golf/Jetta Wagon and plenty of room for groceries.

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    I think they are cool looking. Perfect for running to the store and taking the kids to school, if you only have 3. It would be on my list of runabout cars for sure.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Automobile magazine seems to agree with my assessment that diesels will never be as clean as Hybrids:

    "Let's face it. The Jetta diesel will never be as clean as a hybrid, because it's a diesel and because the hybrid spends a good part of its urban-running time in zero-emissions mode, driven by a mighty-mite electric motor fed by a hefty battery pack. That accounts for its stellar 60 mpg EPA city mileage figure, which many purchasers have mistaken for the mileage they might actually get around town, which, in our case, was far lower. Compared with the Prius, the Jetta is somewhat less stingy with a gallon of fuel and emits roughly twenty times more nitrous oxide, almost three times more hydrocarbons, and twice as much carbon monoxide, even though it's wildly clean by historic diesel standards. It helps to remember that the Prius, optimized to remain electric and hence emissions-free for a good portion of the EPA city-driving cycle, tests as one of the cleanest fossil-fueled cars in history. (Priuses certified for California and four Northeast states are cleaner yet.) The jury is still out on whether the diesel will survive in the U.S. market, though we're betting that the political muscle of diesel makers and other adherents will extend its life into a distant future. The question may be what form diesels take. There is nothing to suggest that they wouldn't offer similar benefits were they to be hybridized; indeed, the stated goal of the Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles, the federally underwritten program to build an 80-mpg family car that cost billions and turned up nothing, was to facilitate production of just such a vehicle. The reason? Diesels use less of a more energy-dense fuel and therefore tend to be naturally low in carbon dioxide emissions-the bugaboo of the global warming debate-which is good. Emissions, especially oxides of nitrogen and particulate matter, remain a major concern, however, even if you can't see diesel soot with the naked eye as well as you used to."
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    The article seemed fair and balanced. If you want a great in town commuter, go hybrid. If you want good highway handling and adverse conditions driving go with the VW TDI. If anyone wants an 80 mpg family car the LUPO TDI is available to parts of the world. Anytime you get the federal government involved in R&D there will be waste and graft.

    Smoke, odor, and related diesel foulness are things of the past. Cruising at 90 mph, if one goes in for such things, is an option for the present. The Americanized Jetta's handling is not the last word in crisp, but the car is planted, unlike the Prius, which gets blown around in the wind. When full panic braking is called for, the Jetta pulls up in 172 feet from 70 mph, 20 feet less than the Prius, which feels jerky and slightly odd when binders are applied, and narrow-tread tires have their work cut out for them stopping 2960-plus pounds of payload.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Amazing that a person can live in today's world and still think Hybrids "plug in" or that a Hybrid car is a "robot." But that's what Automobile mag got from one yokel:

    "Only one of our test cars looked as if it were sent last week from outer space (actually, it comes from Toyota City, near Nagoya in Japan), and only one can take epochal, brand-making advantage of the general public's dim-to-nonexistent understanding of hybrid technology. "Where do you plug it in?" is a question you'll learn to hate as a Prius driver. They don't understand. But we feel quite certain that the Prius defines the automotive new wave for Americans, nevertheless. "Is it a robot?" someone asked. "That's the robot, right?'
    "Why, yes, it is," we told them. "Stand back."

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    "That's the robot, right?'
    "Why, yes, it is," we told them. "Stand back."

    Maybe it was not such an uneducated question.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"A diesel car that gets 45 mpg is not a problem."-end quote


    I think maybe the definition of "a problem" is indeed a part of the problem. (follow that?)


    Diesel fuel exhaust itself has been shown in decades of scientific testing to be harmful to humans and the environment in ways measured FAR WORSE than gasoline exhaust.


    Until "clean diesel" is prevalent and is shown to be indeed "clean" then diesels will have problems in the USA.


    Not based on any "bias against diesel" or anything else, just based on established scientific facts.


    In general, the following statement is true:


    Hybrids are the cleanest gasoline cars right now, and "clean diesels" are far, FAR behind. Dirty diesels are not even on the MAP.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Larsb:


    Hybrids are the cleanest gasoline cars right now …


    ___Actually, a far greater number of non-hybrid Honda Accord’s, Ford Focus’, Nissan Sentra’s and Altima’s, Toyota Camry’s, BMW 325’s … the list goes on and on have been and are cleaner then our Hybrid’s for a far longer period of time. Our 03 MDX is actually cleaner then most HCH’s and is cleaner then my Insight in terms of regulated emissions.



    … and "clean diesels" are far, FAR behind. Dirty diesels are not even on the MAP.


    ___Actually, clean diesel’s out of Europe are at ULEV or better levels in terms of PM and NOx today. They are lower then most hybrids in terms of CO and HC’s.


    ___When will the Green Diesel’s arrive here? Even after LSD and ULSD is available to everyone, the EPA and CARB might decide for you and I that they will never be available?


    ___Good Luck


    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,079
    Hybrids are the cleanest gasoline cars right now, and "clean diesels" are far, FAR behind. Dirty diesels are not even on the MAP.


    I will have to put your statement in the category of opinion. First according to the EPA the cleanest ICE car they have tested is the Civic running on CNG. Next you ignore the fact that ULSD is available in most of CA today. Are we going to have to wait until all the high sulfur diesel is used in trucks, trains and ships before they will allow diesel cars. If CARB was consistent across the board I would not have a complaint. By our standards, my neighbor can buy an F350 diesel truck and burn whatever diesel he can find. I cannot buy the much cleaner burning VW TDI even if I were to burn only ULSD or biodiesel, which is also available at the pump in San Diego.


    To add to xcel's point, he gets 37 mpg with a Ford Ranger. I have talked to people that drove a Diesel Ranger crewcab from the tip of So America to Prudhoe Bay Alaska. They averaged for the trip 45 mpg. That is why I can say it is well within reason to expect that kind of mileage from our trucks and cars. The reasons that those vehicles are not here is many. One is the EPA has done little to force the mileage higher since 1975 when Nixon mandated the 27.5 mpg fleet average. The oil industry is not interested in us getting better mileage for obvious reasons. And the state governments are having problems with high mileage as it cuts into their fuel tax revenues. You can expect your hybrid to get some kind of extra tax in the next few years. It may be like the Oregon and CA mileage tax. Or some other scheme like the $75 tax that Nebraska levies on hybrids.


    Clean burning diesels are better in some areas (GHG) than gas and worse in others. None of the new vehicles are as bad as a car built in 1995, or a diesel truck built today.


    I know it is going to take some time to convince you that hybrids are a niche market. If you watch the Prius buyers thread. Almost every day someone posts where they have walked in or called and the dealer had a Prius for MSRP ready to sell. One poster says the dealer near him in WA has two on the lot right now. They have just about saturated the potential buyers. Some dealers use that 6 month waiting list to sell you something else. It happened to me in Hawaii.
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    The fact that xcel gets 37 mpg with a Ranger is very good, wonder how many others can do that, probably the same number that have a CNG Civic or a diesel Ranger in the US. How many can buy a Prius or Honda hybrid ?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote xcel:"___Actually, a far greater number of non-hybrid Honda Accord’s, Ford Focus’, Nissan Sentra’s and Altima’s, Toyota Camry’s, BMW 325’s … the list goes on and on have been and are cleaner then our Hybrid’s for a far longer period of time. Our 03 MDX is actually cleaner then most HCH’s and is cleaner then my Insight in terms of regulated emissions."-end quote


    That may be true for PZEVs, which are mostly in CA. But not on the 2005 EPA list of Clean Green cars - all the top spots belong to Hybrids. Here is the EPA list of greenest, cleanest cars:



    And here's where the diesels start showing up:



    quote gagrice-"I know it is going to take some time to convince you that hybrids are a niche market."-end quote


    That's about as likely to EVER happen as is me convincing you that diesels are not the long term answer !! :)
This discussion has been closed.