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Jeep Liberty Diesel



  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    Carobou1: The ball joints we had replaced. I think it was last Sept. The old ones looked just fine! But looks mean little! It's what's inside, if the inside is "dry" and steel against steel is a danger looking for a happening. However I could not tell one way or the other after they were replaced.
    Our CRD has 38 items replaced, or repaired. We have driven 2,280 miles going to and from the dealer for these repairs. Four of these repairs have been done over 5 times and still need to be fixed again. The fuel gage sending unit has been replaced 5 times and now this latest one gets stuck at 3/4 full. The jerkiness in the engine is more often now, and the cruise control continues to do it's own thing. My wife and I are worn out, with we "can't duplicate
    the problem". But at least DCX is saying they agree we need some kind of resolution. Will let you know if and when this gets resolved.
    We have not been officially told what DCX is going to offer, but we were told less than an hour ago we would know by perhaps tommrow. or Tues at the latest. We have driven all of the 4x4's that DCX sells, that gets good mpg. We have selected the Patriot "4x4" but it is more like a AWD that can be put in FWD and then made into AWD. This has all the room we need, and will get us up and down the hill in the winter. The Patriot does not do much pulling. But we don't need that, and if we did I would ask our son to use his Chevy truck.
    Diesel is $2.50 a gallon here and gas is $2.15 diesel has stayed about 40 cents more from the time we got it. Most stations have the ULSD but there are still some that carry the old diesel, but it is higher here like $2.60. I don't know why.

  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801

    Your story is unreal. I would have burned the dealership to the ground by now and had the service manager and his diesel tech drawn and quartered. Your treatment by this dealer is in my view totally beyond unacceptable. I wonder if they ever did the work they claim they did? Sounds like they never did. At least DCX is trying to be helpful.

    My CRD continues to do well and has been trundelling right along with nary a hiccough or a burp. Have about 17.5K on it now and the engine has really settled down quite a bit. It idles very smoothly and from the outside is nearly noiseless at idle. On the highway it moves along nicely but I do on occasion miss that little bit of torque that the F37 recall took away. The trans is smooth but seems a little busier than before the F37 recall. It is harder to "lug" in top gear and readily releases the TC clutch when there is a hint of lugging. FE continues to climb but more slowly.

    Diesel fuel here varies from 2.499 to 2.71.9 per gallon. I am using ULSD exclusively with a touch of cetane improver and a touch of detergent, both from Amsoil. I am using a "CJ" rated oil from Amsoil. Very nice stuff.

    I wish you the best of luck with your new vehicle, whatever it might be.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    winter2: We do fault the dealer, very much so. For certian the dealers Tec's lack of investigative skills, has added unquestionably to this situation. There is no logical reason to have replaced 5 fuel sending units in the fuel tank. Someone failed to question what the cause of these many part failures. There simply can not be 5 bad sending units! When this comes to a conclusion, the dealer has to bare the blame for why these many repeated repairs were done without questioning if there was something else at the root of the problems.
    Wisdom tells us to be wise as a fox and let the District Rep find that we have been more than patient, and deserve to be relieved from this whole mess.
    We are firm, either the Green Beast is totally fixed, or bought back very soon! We have not made endless demands, but there has been pressure from the number of times we have endured so many trips, to have the same problems fixed and repeated again and again. This has been on going for nearly 30,000 miles. Someone has to take responsibility, and it's not a pretty sight, or testimony, for a Five Star dealer.
    This all started with the factory put the inner cooler hose on with pressure clamps and not the screw on clamps. This resulted in oil leaking oil, creating a real mess. Besides rushing these CRD vehicles into production, DCX surely made some mistakes. I have said for some time that we all are "test market" buyers. None of us was made aware we bought a Jeep CRD that was an "experiment" as Dr. Z has called us CRD buyers. No one who bought a CRD was told what those in DCX Headquarters knew all of the time. DCX used our loyal trust in Jeep vehicles, to lure us into a false sense of trust that these CRD's made for the US, were a proven, and on going diesel production vehicle that would be available into the end of the decade.
    We have said to everyone at DCX that what we want is to be treated fairly. We have been loyal customer to Chrysler for many years, we expect to be shown some gartutide for our loyalty. We hope this makes DCX see that we deserve to be relieved of this vehicle, and to allow us to purchase a Jeep Patriot in it's place. We pray we will be treated fairly.

  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059
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  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Unofficial information concerning the future and reliability of the recent Liberty diesel is not good. I will be sticking to mine but definitely not be buying a recent model.

    The manual shifter seems not to satisfy people because the knee protection panel (under the steering) hurts the leg of the driver after a few pushes on the clutch in heavy traffic. Tight maneuvers take more attention because the common rail engine stalls easily.

    The new EGR system you have is considered a pest.

    The F37 recall gives you the torque I have on my 'old' truck. There is a different (conservative) mapping of the ECU that does not allow using the potential of the early pressure build up of the variable vanes turbo. This 'de-rating' is done to prolong ate the life of the viscous coupler that doesn't support driving at low speed when the torque is high! There are fewer problems for fast drivers :sick:

    The 60,000 miles inspection costs more than 1,300 USD! I think I will do this myself.

    Most of this sad situation comes from the automobile press that compares the RAV, the CRV, X-Trail, Subarus and other 'all road' vehicles within the same category. The production of the Liberty could stop in 2008 because of pollution standards that become more political than needed. If you don't want to sink with the ship, leave board asap :surprise:
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    caribou1: We are waiting to find out how much we will be charged per mile for the "use" of the Green Beast. I am hoping it is no more than 20 cents a mile. The resale value of ours as a trade in is $16,500 to $17,500. USD. We have been told they take the mileage charge off the sticker price, not what we actually paid for it. This is still $2,000. drop just from Feb. 1st. There are a good number of used ones on lots that a dealer does not want more than one sitting for sale on the lot.
    As Captain of the ship, Green Beast I order "abandon ship"! Either that or add some real tough air floats to keep this boat afloat.

  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Farout: this is not a joke, the future of the CRD Liberty seems dull. If yours is finally repaired properly and you decide to keep it, you may not find many people who will remember how to fix it in 3 years from now.
  • twocycle2twocycle2 Posts: 55

    I've looked at VM Motori's website, and it looks like they use their engines in other DCX products in Europe as well as products from other manufactures. Have you heard anything about those applications? Are people experiencing the same types of issues in those products, or is this more isolated to the vehicles used in the US? I still think some of the problems here are because of the lower quality fuel we have, and simply a lack of knowledge at the dealership level about these vehicles. With the exception of VW, the only diesels the dealers have dealt with in the US have been in full-size trucks, and even then, it took a few yrs for the techs to figure out what they were doing. When the new Toyota Camry came out last year, they were having transmission problems in some of them....but with over 100,000 on the road, it didn't take long for the dealers to become educated in how to fix them. For us, there are less than 12,000 spread across the entire US....the learning curve is very slow. I'm just curious how the VM Motori engines are doing in Europe.

  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801

    A bad dealer is ugly enough but a company that does not penalize said dealer is worse. Unfortunately, the domestic automotive industry is sales driven and not quality or innovation driven. Service by dealers for any manufacturer ranges from really good to really bad. Unfortunately you got stuck at the bad end.

    I do have some concern for you purchasing a Patriot. The engine, either the 2.0 liter or the 2.4 liter is not an American creation. DCX, Hyundai and one or two other companies had their fingers in it so it is hard to say what the long term prognosis is for it. :surprise:
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801

    Your assessment for the future reliability of the CRD is not heartening. The issue with the F37 recall not only saves the torque converter clutch but other components in the transmission.

    I have found a company in Texas that specializes in the RFE545 transmission. They rebuild them to tolerate all sorts of torque and horsepower and you can purchase a torque converter from them that is free of plastic, has either Kevlar or Carbon Fiber facing on the clutch and has brazed turbine fins. There is also a kit from Transgo that eliminates many of the issues that come in RFE545 and it costs less than 50 USD. I will also bee adding a trans oil cooler to boot.

    On the engine side, I expect the EGR to be a problem, thus an extended warranty is in place that does cover this. I will be purchasing a device to restore the lost torque and add a bit more in the next few months. I am researching this as I have time.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    The VM engine is a jewel of technology just like many others today who use common 'sub-assemblies' that you can purchase from all around the world.
    If you decide to manufacture a certain type of engine or simply a module that performs a specific task, to make money you will need adapted tools and machines. The manufacturers of these machines or tools provide their customers with the best sequences of operations, etc... to satisfy the market they aim. So, whether the customer's name is PSA, VM, DC, VW, it's very often a shared method of production because the machines or tools are produced by only a few engineers that evolve simultaneously. I was in that field 25 years ago.

    To answer your question about shared issues, it's YES :cry:

    What's killing the Liberty, called Cherokee here, is the press that refuses to differentiate between a true 4x4 and an allroad station wagon. There is a 'reducting' tendency to assimilate people to political parties and the cost of an object to the image it's owner can expect. So the new Jeeps with the small diesel engine should produce the same effect I was told. I stayed 3 hours between showroom and shop waiting for my front end to be repaired. Customers did mention a budget while discussing with the salesmen, so they are formatted this way.
    BTW the new Jeep Compass' manual gearbox cracks when engaging reverse. The Audi A4 Quattro station wagon sells for practically the same price and is fully synchromeshed :shades:
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    I was explained it's the sceptum plate of the torque converter that vibrates and breaks loose by fatigue; it's not the gearbox itself.
    Braised fins would be best in this case.
    This deterioration happens mainly to people driving long distances at 1800 rpm!
    I was also told to stay away from power chips or different mapping values of my ECU. They all seem to bring associated problems.
    I don't pull a trailer but I sometimes pull trees, large ones also. My engine cannot develop more than 2000 rpm under full load in LO-Mode. Some trees are 50 to 60 feet (40 year old pine trees and birch as well). Do you sometimes need the full power from your rig? I wonder what the tuning chips could bring in such a case? I'm bluffed by the traction I get with the BFGs and the momentum I can achieve with such loads. My grandson says: "grand' pa plays with his 4x4" :shades:
  • siberiasiberia Posts: 520
    Several days ago we got 7 inches of wet snow. I had the pleasure to observe a hi-tech "electronic" 4wd favored by CR in action. The snow plow had only made a couple of laps through the parking lot leaving about a 15 inch ridge of snow just outside the parking stalls. The driven wheels of the "recommended" SUV came up against the ridge and started to spin. After a short second the other wheels started to spin also and the vehicle was defeated. After several attempts it was discovered that an 8 ft run would provide the inertia to get over the hump. 2-Wheel drive vehicles made the same discovery and were likewise successful.:)
  • siberiasiberia Posts: 520
    Farout, could you describe under what conditions jerking occurs with your CRD?
  • siberiasiberia Posts: 520
    Winter2, I think we are in the same mind set with our CRD's. I have gotten over my ball joint depression and I am becoming reasonably optimistic about the vehicle. Based on information like you posted and information on other forums about the plethora of torque converters and transmission options available I think we will be okay.

    Europeans have more alternatives. In the US right now the Liberty CRD is a Goldie Locks diesel. It's not too big, it's not too small - it's just right. I researched diesels before I bought the CRD and I fully expected it to quit on me by now and it has not (knock on forehead). It drives and shifts perfect and for now will not be getting the F37 recall - maybe later. I am grateful to those who did and posted their results.
  • zoomy2zoomy2 Posts: 50
    I got a new error code today, no one has mentioned this one listed here but here is is: The check engine light came on after a failed attempt at starting. The error was CAMSHAFT POSITION ERROR according to the dealer. I didn't even know the camshaft has a position censor on it. The engine coolant was 70° and it was a "0" RPM according the to code reader. I stopped cranking the engine before it started and quickly tried a second time, this time engine started with the check engine light on so I took it to the dealer. I watched as they cleared the code.

    I did feel better when the guy behind me inline with his Hemi RAM pickup has many error code problems too, so it's not just the CRD's but DCX gas powered cars too. DCX just needs new programers.

    On this note I turned over 36,000 on the way home from the dealer, it least the problem was noted before the first round of warranty runs out, the dealer left the work order open.

    I'm getting 24.66 MPG after the F37 which is about the same as before 24.3 MPG. In a few weeks I will be able to tow my camper to see what effect the F37 did on this...
  • patscrdpatscrd Posts: 7
    Any chance yoy could post the name and phone # of the transmission shop in Texas so i could call them and have a torque converter made for my crd. Im trying to get it back to the way it ran before the F37 recall ,but the stall speed on the original converter has me puzzled ,i think the one that they put in it now has a lot higher stall . I have a tech at the dealer that still has the software ,last update,Oct 2006 that he will give to me. I just have to find a way to re install it. If i purchased a high end programmer such as Edge is it possible to set the shift points and such back close as to original to get my fuel economy and torque back to original. Any thoughts would be helpfull,or any one that has installed a programer ?. The other thing im confused about is i read somthing about a variable pitch turbo ,is that what ours has ? and did they change somthing about it in the recall ? Please bear with me as i seem to be in the dark and have to start some ware to get it back to when we enjoyed the crd.Any input would be most appreciated.
  • ucanfarmucanfarm Posts: 33
    I get to turn my jeep into the shop :sick: on the fifth of March and expect to get it back the 23rd. It surprised me as took a beating from trees and power lines sparking on the hood and top, while I watched a tornado (wall of wind) go by on the other side of the road. Drove me home with no broken glass but every panel has a dent or more. The top and hood is being replaced. A quarter of a mile down the road the homes are gone, the chicken house tin you see on the road for miles up in the trees and pink insulation you can see out in the fields and sometimes a stray piece will float down from the sky. Please Pray for the people of Echo and Enterprise Alabama.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    ucanfarm: My deepest sympathy for goes to you and those who grieve for the losses of loved ones and friends, as well for those such as yourself who have experienced such trauma. My wife and I will remember you in our prayers. I do not say that as just a passing word, but we will pray for your request.
    We live too live in the same kind of danger in our area. We have had some of those huge suckers within 4 miles of our home, it is a trauma I pray will never come upon us. God bless you friend.

  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    siberia: The jerking can be more noticeable from 45 mph to anything on up. It is possible it happens at lower speeds, but, we don't notice it. The jerkiness may last from 10 seconds to over a minuet, but mostly under 30 seconds. Perhaps this is what has been called "shudders"? The cruise control is a mystery, I can drive into a dip and it will kick out ten times and it will kick out everytime, and on the next attempt it stays in! The engine speeds up and then at the bottom when it goes up to the next gear it starts to stay in but then kicks out. These are not huge dips just what I would say in an normal dip.
    The engine sounds ok, no racing, just typical down shift going up. If they had a co-piolet that would might pin point the root of the problem. Could this be the "nut behind the wheel?"

  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    I have responded to someone who is checking their rpms and the mph to see if we match. We don't! Here is what mine rpm's and mph is and then I will post his. Please post your's so we can see if mine or his Tac. is off.

    Here is mine.
    @ 55 mph = 1700 rpm (5th lock up just kicks in)
    @ 60 mph = 1900 rpm
    @ 65 mph = 2050 rpm

    Here is his.
    @ 63 mph = 1800 rpm
    @ 66 mph = 1900 rpm

    would please post yours so we might see who is more accurate? Thanks a lot.

  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801

    I do not tow anything save for myself, the wife, and a few cats.

    Power chips, as I like to call them, if setup properly do work well and produce no ill effects, so I have been told. The power chip I intend to purchase will add only about 30 - 40 lb-ft of torque and about ten to fifteen horsepower. I am by no means looking for monster power increases. I am also looking at power chips that do not leave any footprint in the PCM or TCM.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    I do perchance happen to have the name and telephone number of said institution.

    Performance Automotive and Transmission Center, Dodge City, TX


    I spoke to them some many months ago about the trans in the CRD. At that point they had not addressed the trans in our CRD but by now, they might have.

    As for the torque converter, cost is 450 USD. Has carbon fiber clutch, furnace brazed fins and all bearing construction. Stall speeds vary from 1600 to 3400 RPM and vary by 200 RPM increments.

    Hope this helps.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    Well Siberia, I never got depressed over the ball joint problem. At least DCX was making sure that no one got hurt/killed because of ball joint failure. In fact since the ball joints were replaced, the front end is a lot less sloppy.

    As for the engine, I am not to concerned. It is physically a very good engine and like anything made by humans, it is not perfect. It is the electronics and software that bother me more. Too much of that but so far so good. As for the trans, it is the torque converter that is the weak link. DCX, being like all other manufacturers, decided to use what was available instead of putting in an upgraded part. A run of 11K vehicles was too small to consider building an upgraded part. Thus, F37 which slightly screwed us out of 20 lb-ft or six percent of what we paid for.

    I was going to hold off on the F37 like you are. The trans worked fine but occasionally did protest when lugged at 1800 RPM or less by bucking a bit on rare occasions. The one real benefit I noted with F37 was an increase in FE of slightly more than one MPG.
  • winter2winter2 Posts: 1,801
    What's killing the Liberty, called Cherokee here, is the press that refuses to differentiate between a true 4x4 and an allroad station wagon.

    Funny you should mention this. The same thing happens here in the States. The Liberty gets dinged for being too truck like and for being too uncivilized on the street because it rides so firmly and handles so sloppily. Funny thing is that you see tons of them in the metro D.C. area. I have seen front ends self destruct on the more civilized baby SUVs after hitting a curb straight on or hitting a nasty pot hole.
  • siberiasiberia Posts: 520
    Farout, I get mild jerking under certain conditions that sounds different from the jerking you are describing. I believe this is where the mild jerking comes from (not juddering or bucking):

    A) Hard acceleration up an on-ramp to highway speed then letting off the pedal and setting the cruise almost always produces jerking. The engine has to go from high fuel flow, high turbo speed and no EGR flow to low fuel flow, low turbo speed and high EGR flow almost immediately while the sensors are chasing conditions. This all happens while up shifting with the electronic cruise control dicking with the fuel flow to establish moderate load and EGR flow. All the while the computer is reading a comedy of errors from sensors and a comic book stored in memory.

    B) When I accelerate slowly on an on ramp, like following a semi, there is never any jerking.

    C) When I accelerate hard with overdrive off and run at speed for 5 or 6 seconds before turning overdrive on and setting the cruise there is never any jerking. This CRD just cannot handle abrupt and dramatic transitions because it takes time for everything to settle down to a new equilibrium. So I use B or C depending on traffic conditions and never get jerking.
  • I went to the rv show this weekend and there was a vendor booth with amsoil..has anyone tried it..and how did it work out...thanks
  • bullheadbullhead Posts: 125
    Yes, people have used it and their vehichles ran about the same as before. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend Amsoil or any other value-added product like it.
  • I did a lot of research on power modules before I bought mine. Its the SP Diesel 90 horsepower version, also produces up to 150 extra foot pounds of torque. I have not seen a module that will allow you to make changes in the shift patterns, I believe this is because the transmission electronics (CPU) control this. I can tell you that unless you are really intuned with your engine and what it can do for various tasks, like taking off fast, or towing slow speeds or highway speeds, or long high MPG drives, you will have a hard time realizing the benefits of a module.

    I choose the SP diesel module because of the amount of options it has. 1-11 power modes, and a fuel economy mode and although I have only used 3 different ones there is a big different between them. Also in my experience there is no way that I know of, for a module to leave an imprint on the ECU. One thing I do if I go to the dealer is unplug the end piece from their respective sensors and put the original ECU plugs back on, and quickly disconnect the negative on the battery and reconnect. Even if they see the module box mounted on my dash they cant do anything, I had a dealer try once to void a warranty, needless to say he lost. I have an extended warranty that covers things even if the dealer wont, so Im not too worried, also you may notice extended warranty companies dont have a void your warranty policy, at least that I have seen.

    Diesel modules are well worth the investment, as long as you know WHAT you want to use it for. Also make sure you get a module designed for diesel only, forget all those other Ebay modules for the "Liberty" anything under $300 is only for unleaded Libertys and really dont do anything worth mentioning.

    my 2 cents
  • Hogwild1961: IMO the type of oil you use should be focused on your use of the equipment you put it in. If you like to drive fast, I would recommend some sort of additive to your motor oil, if you do off road or towing you might look at an additive to your transmission fluid, or a better quality oil that has higher chemical properties and can withstand higher temps and friction. I personally drive fast all the time, and I tow big things when I am not driving fast. Also I know that there are times, like when you first start your engine there may not be enough oil sloshing around to protect things, if you have a higher quality chemically designed oil that residual may still be on those parts when the engine starts, which is exactly how Slick 50 got its name, prevents wear when you first start it up, well if you use a higher quality motor oil that may prevent damage just the same as slick 50.

    I personally use the cheapest oil with the right SAE rating and then add Muscle Products to all my oil, diff, tranny, engine, and the only thing I dont put it in is the break fluid, because the MT-10 additive from Muscle Products removes friction by changing the chemical structure on the metal touching parts (something you dont want in your break fluid, trust me I have done it without thinking and it was fun getting back home, had to drain the whole system several times and later ended up replacing the brake cylinder). So needless to say I am high tech, but I also am very hard on moving parts, I have accepted this so I try to put more effort in helping those moving parts last longer under that type of wear.

    Amsoil..... is highly recommended by lots of Jeep people who do all sorts of off road things, from what I have heard they know what works better because of the amount of things they have had to repair while on the trail. Other than that I wish you best of luck, and please, please make your own choice based on research, not just someone elses Opinion. The more research the more valid your choice.
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