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Jeep Liberty Diesel

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  • zoomy2zoomy2 Posts: 50
    VM Motori is jointly developing with General Motors Corp., (GM) a premium V-6 turbo-diesel engine that will launch in the Cadillac CTS in 2009.
    The new 2.9-liter V-6 diesel engine (184 nkW/250 hp), which was unveiled by GM at the Geneva Motor Show on March 6, features state-of-the-art injection and combustion technology for low emissions and high performance.

    Possible for US Market?

    Farout,

    Sorry to here about all of your problems with your CRD. Ours were only made days apart, early June 2005. My dealer only sold (4) and (1) white was purchased back by DCX for unsolved problems. My dealer has been very supportive in fixing mine as it has needed repairs/recalls.

    I just got the rear diff. oil (75W-140 synethic) changed $93., plus the regular 5000 mile service setting me back $193.+. Mobil 1 0W-40 only. I have over 38,000 on mine and it just got 25.6 MPG by fill and refill method normal only to 24.4 MPG.

    zoomy
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    zoomy2: I sure wish someone could offer some kind of assistance in just fixing the "Green Beast". Not one dealer within 100 miles will even attempt a try at this point. I am aware that DCX has buy backs in a number of the CRD's. How many I have no idea. The only dealer Tech. who told me he could most likely fix our CRD was Dan at Yark Jeep in Toledo, Ohio. He says he knows whats wrong with the fuel gauge system, and he believes he knows why the cruise control kicks out as well the jerking of the engine. But Toledo is a far peace down the road, don't ya know. We have invested many, many hours in the waiting room at the dealership, with no results.
    After driving the Patriot and the Compass, and comparing what each come standard with, we have chosen the Compass. The Patroit drives the same and has the same stuff undernieth but the bodys are very different. It comes down more to what a person likes. We like the Light Khaki with the Pebble Beige interior. My wife says it has to have a Power Sunroof. So besides this we are going over dealers inventory seeing whats out there, so we can tell the IFG when they call to say lets do it now, we can say here is what we want and here is one we like. At least that's how we have been told it works something like it anyway.

    farout
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Post a list of the problems you are having with your CRD and lets see what we can come up with. I'll give you as much assistance as possible. I only have 45,000 miles on mine with the last non recall item being glow plugs at 23,000 miles. The dealer will only see mine if it's a warranty issue.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Goodcrd,
    The ideal way to help would be to have access to the data of a professional OBD code reader, the equivalent to a memory dump file. I doubt the list of problems alone can be sufficient to produce a reliable diagnostic. A simulation must be done for understanding what's going wrong.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    caribou1: You are correct. Just posting the symptons that may appear as the real problem, can indeed be a result on some other malfuncting part. With STAR hooked up to the computer and conected to our CRD, it only had the dealer throw more parts at the vehicle. I was told if it ain't got a code we can't fix it.that includes the four fuel gauge sending units in the tank.
    We have pretty much accepted the fact the "Green Beast" needs to be tamed by someone smarted than we can find any where near here, so has DCX.
    Diesel fuel here is not at $2.70 a gallon, up from $2.33 three weeks ago. From what you have said these prices would seem like dirt cheap to you, right?

    Farout
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Farout, when you say technicians need a code to give you an answer, this reminds me the attitude of the "new generation" of sales people. Some think we cannot read and read out loud what's written on the labels. I enjoy this on a daily basis. They have no hand-on experience and professional schools train them to work with computers, not with their brain (or what's left of it). When you buy trousers, sales people can afford to buy this specific product and share experience. A dish washer with Start-Delay becomes more difficult to explain. But when comes the time to understand and imagine what can go wrong in the central controller of a modern vehicle, you land here ;)
    Our diesel is now 1.12 Euro per liter, approx 5.46 USD/Gal.

    I had a long chat with the head mechanics at my dealership when I took the truck in for ball joint recall (which was a non-issue by the way). He told me clearly to stay away from power chips that will destroy the torque converter. Apparently we have the same model but I have a bit less torque at the low end and this makes a huge difference. Concerning the hesitations of the shifting pattern when the torque converter is OK, he clearly pointed towards the EGR system. So all goes well from this side of the pond.

    Which symptom calls for a fuel gauge exchange? Could you describe how your gauge behaves? If you have a look at this thing you will find it quite simple. It's surprising to read that people can exchange the same part so many times :surprise:
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Codes are just helpful. Step one to getting a good tech is finding one who knows how the system functions and how it is designed. Step two is to find one who knows how to trouble shoot in a methodical, logical, and ethical manner. I deal with twenty five to forty diesel techs each day. Just list the problems and you will find that your knowledge will increase and the problems will decrease. Part of the issue with dealers is that they don't want to spend the time (money) needed to diagnose intermitant or unclear performance complaints. If it doesn't jump up and bite them the tech goes to the next easiest solution for themselves. Now accountability of employee performance comes into play. The dealer doesn't like to confront loser tech with job performance so they snow the car owner with some crap and hope they go away.

    Back to the list. Providing a list of issues will help to walk you through what needs to be checked. Most good techs have three things: A good laptop computer, digital multi-meter and good work ethic. And code just gives a place were to start looking!
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    goodcrd: Cruise control drops or kicks out when going down hill, at the bottom and when it starts to go up hill. This does not have to be a big dip either. We live in an area that has dips in the freeways so even on a fairly nice freeway dip it kicks out. The light never goes out, all I have to do is hit resume. The engine shudders, or jerks or bucks, between 50 to 70mph. There is no pattern, just at very odd times. The jerking lasts from 1/2 to a 1 1/2 min.
    Fuel gauge is never even close to accurate. The gauge can say 1/4 and it can be empty. I can fill it up and it sticks at 3/4 full. We had it say 1/2 and it has taken 6 gal. The gauge is a constant game the "Green Beast" plays on us. They have replaced 4 sending units in the tank. The front windows leak air so much so that if you light a match and bring it in the curved top area it will blow out the match! door deals have been replaced twice. Service manager says he has done everything, and to adjust the doors anymore will not line up with the body. After the F-37 recall the fuel mpg droped from 21.6 and 24.6mpg to less than 20 mpg on open road, and between 60 and up when we try to get into a passing gear it has no power, just barely gets much speed up. Several sensors have been replaced as well the PCM. Passengers seat belt has gone bad twice. Inner cooler hose was replaced, EGR flow valve replaced, ball joints recalled, and 5 reflash's were done by recall. There has been a total of 25 trips to the dealer and this represents 2,400 miles and more than 100 hours at the dealer waiting for work to be done.
    The things we like are the Rear Cargo Organizer, the five speed trans, the color Deep Beryl Green, the Chrome Front Grill we had put in. We have done some more things to it that fit our needs. BUT we are sick and tired of constantly having these problems. This AM my wife left our house with 3/8 of a tank, she drove 25 miles and it was showing at the empty light and at the empty peg that makes the gauge stop from going down anymore. We are retired and I have some serious medical problems, and we depend upon a dependable vehicle as we live pretty far out in the Ozarks. At present we take our 96 Dodge Neon with 193,000+ miles on it, The Neon has been well taken care of from the day we drove it home from the new car dealer. That sure says a lot right there. Any suggestions?

    Farout
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Farout, sounds like your 4th fuel gauge is still rubbing onto an anti-splash separation in your tank, or something fell in there during assembly. If it's not that, it has to be electrical. Any retired automobile mechanics should be able to help you on this one.
  • Farout

    There is a very good dealership in Sullivan MO. West Bros. They have a great service dept. I don,t know how far they are from you but their technicians think on their feet and don't need a code to work on something.

    You could disconnect your EGR valve and see if this stops the bucking motion, it will throw a code but should still be drivable. You fixed the cruise control problem the first time by replacing the PCM, could there be a bad connector on the wiring harness that has resurfaced? My guess would be bad wiring harness problems are the root of many of your problems.

    Someone here about 8 months ago had there wiring harness fall down onto the muffler or driveshft and it melted the insulation and started doing some weird things. So the early builds such as yours may be suffering from these kind of things.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    First problem I would address is the engine shuddering. Did you bleed the air from the fuel filter? I can't stress it enough that there is "No" air in the fuel system. It will cause most of the problems that you have listed in reference to engine performance. If you find consistant air in the fuel at the fuel filter this must be repaired before any other engine/trans issue can be addressed. I would also later check for a faulty TPS or vehicle speed sensor/circuit if no air is present in the fuel system. TPS & VSS and circuits wouldn't always throw a code. This vehicle would give a seperate indication light on the dash if the brake and accelerator were applied at the same time and wouldn't reset the indicator until you restarted the vehicle. With all the work done with reguard to your fuel gauge I would start there with respect to a fuel problem (Air in Fuel). This fuel gauge problem should not be happening repeatedly. After the second try I would have been calling the mechanic on his work. He is not spending the time to properly diagnose the fault. Has this vehicle ever been in an accident? If so was the problem with the fuel gauge post accident in nature? Could just be a faulty electrical connection with the fuel gauge. (8 hours to find and 5 minutes to fix!) Again is the dealer willing to spend the time to properly diagnose.
    As for the Cruise Control I would wait until the first issue is resolved. It may be the cause of the cruise control problems. One note here for general knowledge. On some ABS systems if a condition such as Vehicle speed doesn't match the wheel speeds the Cruise control will drop out. This is a safety issue and is also why you shouldn't use cruise control in rain or bad road conditions. I don't order any vehicles with cruise because of some bad experiences with accidents while using cruise control on company vehicles.

    I hope this helps. Let me know what you find with air in your fuel. This is where you must start. It either has the problem or not. No well maybes.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Goodcrd, air bubbles trapped in the fuel line become invisible at high pressures. If there is not enough pressure available in the common rail, the pressure sensor will detect this and the ECU should give out one of these codes:
    # P0190 Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Circuit
    # P0191 Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Circuit Performance
    # P0194 Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor Circuit Intermittent

    On top of that, the engine should sometimes stall while idling and be difficult to start just after stalling.

    Concerning the fuel tank level sender, if there was an intermittent problem of short duration such as an electrical connection problem, I guess this code should appear:
    # P0656 Fuel Level Output Circuit Malfunction

    We have to keep in mind the ECU repeats a routine and by comparing recent changes (also called events) it can trigger a set of alarms. A simple test would be to disconnect the pressure sensor while spinning the engine at high revs and connecting the sensor while the inertia of the engine keeps it turning. Would the engine stop? I don't know, but if it does stop, this would mean it's not the pressure sensor that's causing the shudder. Do you understand what I mean?
  • hamchamphamchamp Posts: 33
    53 days and still counting.
    My 2005 Jeep CRD is still in disrepair. I did get to talk to 'those in charge' and picked out a replacement. We are waiting for final approval.-they said 3-5 days. Has anyone out there actually received a replacement vehicle? If so, how long did it actually take, from beginning to end of the talking. :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :sick: :sick: Hamchamp in NC
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Wrong!!!!!!!! Your fuel pressure will stay the same. You just made the same mistake most techs make. The pressurized air trapped in the fuel won't contribute to the combustion, you won't have any. There is your shudder!!!!!!
  • nescosmonescosmo Posts: 453
    Goodcrd....I think that wally w. fuel is the problem.
    It should replaced the fuel filter and go to another station. Maybe that is the problem. Also they should replaced the electrical hornes or check the plugs that goes to each modules to see if they are properly inserted.

    Nescosmo.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Goodcrd, air is a mixture of gasses. Gasses are compressible until they liquify (assuming temperature remains stable). The pressure of the common rail is 1600 times that of atmosphere.

    I've made many tests where air was trapped in compressed water and noticed that air 'disappears' well below 100 atmospheres.
    I was involved in building the high pressure rinsing system described here:
    http://epaper.kek.jp/p95/ARTICLES/RPB/RPB09.PDF
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    hamchamp: Today we told the independent company that handles DCX buy back, or replacements, what we wanted and who had it. We could choose any DCX product except the high dollar MB. We chose a Compass 4x4. The dealer we bought the CRD from has the work to get the Compass to him, and do all the paper work. DCX transferred our Chrysler Service Contract to the Compass, and we paid a per mile charge for the use of the CRD. As things stand DCX is being fair with us. DCX Customer Care Line was the ones who saw how many times we had been in the shop and referred this situation on on Feb.14, and a fellow from DCX headquarters called and talked with us on March 13. the District Rep called to give us some choices, on March 15 all the papers were sent to DCX for approval, and today we got the find the vehicle you want. We should be all done next week sometime. So it takes about 6 weeks. You must have solid proof of the problems you have had. Good luck!
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    caribou1: Read the post (#8899) I sent to Hamchamp. The dealer says he has tried all the suggestions given DCX reaches a point that as I see it, (no one said so) that warranty work is no longer worth the money they are spending. What is your take on it? There was no dealer within a reasonable distance that wanted to fool with it, so we were not really wanting to fool with it ourselves either. So that's the news as of this point.

    Farout
  • twocycle2twocycle2 Posts: 55
    While I don't have the technical expertise that Caribou1 and Goodcrd have, I am convinced the shudder is a result of air in the fuel system. The engine acts EXACTLY like it did when I first replaced the fuel filter....once I got the engine to stay running, it ran with a noticable miss (shudder) until the air had purged itself out of the lines. The same effect happens after hard acceleration right when I let off the gas, as if air had been sucked into the system. As to where that air is coming from, I have no idea.

    As I mentioned last week, I finally took mine in for the 2 computer reprograms and the ball joints....the only differece I notice is that the transmission (which had been working fine) now seems more "confused", bumping in and out of gears more than it used to....considering how delicate this transmission seems to be, I can't think that this is a good thing, but I guess time will tell. It's kind of sad....as much as I like driving it, I feel more comfortable taking my wife's Sonata on long trips for fear that something will happen to the CRD and NOBODY will have any clue how to fix it wherever it breaks down.

    Twocycle2
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    Twocycle2: Where do you think the air is coming from? I doubt this is air, but rather related to programs that are not fully had all the bugs worked out.

    Farout
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    This is not the same. First you are taking a low pressure diesel fuel with air bubbles trapped in the fuel. Then this mixture is being pressurized to 1600 bar. When the mixture is injected into the cylinder what do you think happens? High pressure liquid through an orifice to a low pressure environment. Think about it. The air displaces fuel and causes a dead cylinder. Shudder. Your right about your high pressure rinsing system. But your not using the water as fuel.
  • nescosmonescosmo Posts: 453
    At wally they have now the 15w-40 mobil oil for about $22.00 per 4 quarts and the Rotella at about $16.oo. Now which oil is better (I use Rotella), the mobil or Rotella.

    Nescosmo.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Farout, the most important thing is that you find peace of mind and enjoyment with your vehicle. If I would have been in your shoes, I would have probably reacted with less compassion to say things in a soft way. We need to reduce our energy consumption and the diesels made 10 years ago would have pleased you more. The only recommendation I would give you for driving up and down the icy road to your house is to select a very soft winter tire such as the Cooper or Michelin. That's what people prefer here in the mountains with light SUVs.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    If you have air bubbles, you have the smell of fuel either outside on a warm day, in your garage every morning, and you can see stains along the tubes/fittings or on the floor.
    When you have a 'stream of air bubbles' arriving to the high pressure pump, you create a cavitating condition.
    When you inject too much air into the combustion chamber, assuming no alarms were triggered, your Lambda sensor will send you the NOx warning.
    I got rid of my shudder problem the day I removed my EGR valve.
  • goodcrdgoodcrd Posts: 253
    Your Lambda sensor doesn't react as fast as you think. Try this for yourself. Take your fuel filter fuel supply hose off and allow it to drain some fuel out and let some air in to the fuel line. Re secure the fuel line. Run your engine until it stops missing. Now you should have some air trapped in the fuel filter housing. Now drive the vehicle moderately until you want to merge onto expressway traffic. Now accelerate up to say 60 mph form 40 mph very quickly. See what you get. Then go bleed your fuel filter of the trapped air. Then try the same test. Read posts on this site and LOST about the air in fuel shudder.
  • ucanfarmucanfarm Posts: 33
    My jeep is in the shop for body work due to tornado damage. When I get it back one of the first things I am doing is installing clear hoses on both sides of my fuel filter like the ones used in an aquarium but heavy and bigger. I think a shut down sequence of the engine to Depressurize it is the cause of the air, but won't know for a week.
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    nescomo: Hey dude, you are risking some serious issues using 15-40w. I used the Rotella 5-40w and I could not notice any difference, except I felt it stayed clean way too long. Mobile 1 started picking up dirt right away. As a personal note I had to present proof of every oil change and the repair that was done. I even proved that the book said 5-40w syn. oil was ok. That too was brought under some talk. The very best knowledgeable Tech. is at Yark Jeep in Toledo, Ohio, His name is dan, call him and ask what about using 15-40w does and won't do. It will be worth your time.

    farout
  • faroutfarout Posts: 1,609
    caribou1: Believe me when I say it is just as likely that the Service dep. at the dealership is jumping for joy that they don't have to work on it any more. The Service writer, whom I don't give a hoot about, told me today "your Kill en me" I asked for a receipt on a bill I paid over a year ago and they did not give me one. The Service Writer tested my patients all most to the point that he would have wished he has stayed home today. I can assure you that as soon as all things are worked out, this will be on my last place to go for service.
    I have used Cooper tires for several years,there are ok, but ware out faster than others I have used. I have 25,000 on the Wrangler Silent Armor tires, they have been quiet, and smooth, and ware is good. BUT< they are a high dollare tire and I am not sure if the extra money you pay for them really pans out. The Compass has the GoodYear all terrian tires on it, but I sorta expect these to be a fair to middlen tire, anyone know how they are?

    farout
  • mike6206mike6206 Posts: 35
    I have been able to find this and if you can, I recommend Mobil Delvac 1 5W40 Full Synthetic. I got the results of the oil sample I sent in and everything on it tested out normal. I change it every 8000 miles since it has the small filter and this area I live at is hilly. I found the oil at a Travelcenters of America at Greencastle, PA.
  • caribou1caribou1 Posts: 1,354
    Sorry to say this but my MY 2003 has no emissions control. I have no Lambda sensor, nothing apart from the engine and tranny. This is why I can simply try out disconnecting an element and immediately evaluate the effects. When I let air in the system after a fuel filter change without even bleeding the line, it coughs once and immediately recovers it's full operating conditions. I've been driving and maintaining my own diesels since 1978, and there has been a tremendous change. I prefer the models that rely on their flywheel for smooth running, like marine engines. They're not very good for overtaking traffic though ;)
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