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  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    Thanks! fwiw, my wife's CPO looks and performs as new with 16K on the clock-and it cost considerably less than anything remotely comparable from Japan or the US. Yeah, we've really got buyer's remorse...
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    "can't think of any other car I would choose over an X3."

    Umm...check out the new RAV4 V6. Almost the same dimensions and capacity as the X3. The X3 will be hard pressed to match it's straight ahead performance even with the 255hp motor. Yes, it is a little short on lux features compared to the X, but likely not by that much, since the X is no lux-mobile either. But the mechanical bits appear to be in place. OK, the x-drive is no doubt superior to the front-drive bias system on the Toyota.
    But with the price difference....the Toyota is a pretty compelling option. So I'm thinking...reliability in exchange for some luxury, and you pocket the extra cash (which is enough to buy a Yaris for the son/daughter entering college). Not a bad deal. But of course, it is not a BMW, so if the snob appeal of the propeller badge and kidney grill is important... ;)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "straight ahead performance even with the 255hp motor."

    But there is a handling aspect to the X3 that will not be present in the Toyota. The X3 handles almost as well as a sedan.

    A Rav4 is not a stripper version of an X3. One could say it's a compelling argument if one forgoes the luxury and handling of an X3. Using the same thoughts, one could always get a loaded Sante Fe over the Rav4, pocket the money and take the family on a vacation to Hawaii.

    As far as reliability - it's a crap shoot either way.
  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    I doubt many X3 owners go to bed at night wondering if they should have bought a Rav4.
  • jrynnjrynn Posts: 162
    with the price difference....the Toyota is a pretty compelling option. ... But of course, it is not a BMW, so if the snob appeal of the propeller badge and kidney grill is important... ;)

    Until Toyota can match the BMW driving experience -- and not just "straight ahead" acceleration -- there will be people who choose BMWs rather than Toyotas despite the "price difference."

    You are awfully snide to suggest that it's solely a function of "the snob appeal of the propeller badge and kidney grill." That comment might more accurately describe why a buyer would choose a Lexus over a Toyota if you substituted "L" for "propeller badge and "Lexus grill" for "kidney grill."

    (And even then, Lexus buyers could reasonably argue that there are qualitative differences that make the ES better than the Camry, the RX better than the Highlander, the GX better than the 4Runner, and the LX better than the Land Cruiser.)
  • davidc1davidc1 Posts: 168
    I think the handling, braking and power is there for the new RAV4 Sport, in addition to the perceived reliability. But it's still missing the manual transmission.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    I agree with the handling...but the trade-off may be a harsher ride for some folks.

    The Sante Fe analogy is not really valid because the mechanical pedigree of the Fe is nowhere near that of the new RAV.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    Not with the old RAV. But some X3 2.5 owners may...with the new RAV.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    It's totally relevant.... There is a lot more to a car than dimensions and straight-line acceleration.

    If you've driven a BMW (ANY BMW), then you'd understand what the driving hype is all about. For those who have never driven, then you just see it as a big price premium.

    Driving any Toyota versus any BMW is like Night versus Day.
  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 19,126
    Of course, almost any new car will get you from point A to point B. If you are buying from a practical standpoint just buy 3 or 4 Yaris in case one is in the garage being fixed.
    Personally, the status image has nothing to do with it, I could have bought almost any car I wanted (and I don't even like to be driving a status symbol). I chose the X3 because it has the most room, best looks, best performance, most safety features, and is the best car I have ever driven (and that includes a lot of rental cars).
    Nothing wrong with being practical, but, if you enjoy the ride and the experience is important go for the X3, you only live once.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    Oh...I get it. Nothing drives like a BMW. So it would be superfluous to compare a BMW to any model. Don't bother to cross-shop anything. Just go out and buy that Bimmer. And God forbid anyone with the nerves to suggest an alternative.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Oh...I get it. Nothing drives like a BMW"

    I don't understand why on one you you say it's superflous to compare a BMW to anything, on the other hand you say a Sante Fe is not in the same league as the new RAV4? Can't have it both ways.

    You can cross shop anything you want, and if one is looking for basic transportation I wouldn't get the X3 or the RAV4. Basic transportation is available in the range of $15K.

    I think you would have had more success if you said the FX35 is an alternative. The new RAV4 will be all Toyota, unfortunately.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Well said. Your sensible comments are appreciated. (I'm glad at least one BMW owner in here can respond intelligently) I actually feel the same way you do. I still may opt to pay the premium and go for an X3, but there are also other models that offer a strong alternative -- depending on your priorities.

    bodble2… nice to hear about your thirst for intelligent responses. But I remind you, below is how you lit the fuse around here—snob appeal and badge buying. It will always do the trick.

    But with the price difference....the Toyota is a pretty compelling option. So I'm thinking...reliability in exchange for some luxury, and you pocket the extra cash (which is enough to buy a Yaris for the son/daughter entering college). Not a bad deal. But of course, it is not a BMW, so if the snob appeal of the propeller badge and kidney grill is important...

    So when you respond sarcastically… Oh...I get it. Nothing drives like a BMW… I’m led to believe that if you do buy an X3 it will be for the badge. Too bad you would pay the premium and not understand what you are paying for. If this is the case, I would suggest getting the Rav4 and saving the money.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    kd, I was being sarcastic. I know you can (and should) cross-shop anything you want.
  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    Yep, I read the CD article last week; I've been a subscriber since 1970. FWIW, I also subscribe to Automobile, Autoweek, R&T, and Thoroughbred & Classic Cars- not to mention Cycle World and Motorcycle Classics. I also pick up Car, Grassroots Motorsports, and Top Gear from time to time. As for the RAV4, it sounds like a competent vehicle-just not my cup of tea. The only Toyotas that interest me are the various permutations of the Mister Two. And as for Lexus, they make the best darn Buicks in the world!
    Now, one final time:
    How many BMWs have you driven?
    Thought so.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,572
    And the topic is the X3.

    There's four or five comparison topics in the archives that we'll be happy to reopen (or feel free to start an X3 v RAV4 one).

    If you just want to rant about other cars or other drivers, may I suggest:

    ""Wouldn't Be Caught Dead Driving One""


    "You Are What You Drive!?"

    Steve, Host
  • . . .drive it like you live.

    I just signed back in and found this word war about two vehicles.

    What is snob appeal? Do BMW's have it?

    Beats me?

    There are snobs of all sorts for all sorts of things.

    I know folks who own Saabs, Volvos, Nissans, Audis, BMWs and Mercedes (and plenty of other brands.)

    Nothing I can put my finger on would make me think that BMW appeals any more or less to "snobs."

    People that like and repeatedly own Saabs can claim they like their cars because they're quirky -- but the key on the floor isn't usually something that makes me feel the Saab fan is a snob.

    I freely admit to knowing nuttin' about the Toyota RAV that has been part of the preceding discussion. My ONLY comment is I would, personally, not look at the X3 and the RAV as having a similar intended market.

    My wife thinks the X3 is "mostly" a BMW car not a BMW SUV (of course even BMW calls it an SAV.)

    She might consider an Infiniti or Acura "SUV" but I doubt it. She momentarily "paused" at both the Cayenne and Touareg V8, but found them not quite as car like as the X3.

    Maybe she would've loved the Toyota -- my gut is telling me they are generally not cross shopped. I have no clue what, if any, snobbish behavior this suggests.

    I don't personally know any valets so they are not able to offer me any insights either.

    The X3 is a great BMW -- IF it is equipped with "all the toys" -- indeed, it seems to be darn near a Premium Car when all the option boxes (except auto trans) are checked off.

    My wife busts on my continuing to be an Audi customer -- but this has nothing to do with her being a snob as far as I can tell.

    Drive it like YOU live.

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I drove the X3 in deep snow after it was first introduced and the xdrive was amazing.

    The thinking here eludes me. For example taking the Cayenne turbo as an extreme example, if you ignore that fact, the Cayenne turbo hits 60 in 5 seconds can do 155 without breathing hard, compete with a 911 and is capable of serious off-roading; anyone can say the new RAV4 is just as good for $65K less.

    To me the same thought process holds for the X3, while not a speed rocket or off-roader by any means, it handles as competently as the 3 series sedan. Something the RAV4 will never do. Yes it's more expensive and probably faster as well. People don't buy the badge, they buy what the badge represents in terms of performance and the essential BMW character.
  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    People don't buy the badge, they buy what the badge represents in terms of performance and the essential BMW character.
    Precisely. BMW has remained focused on its "Ultimate Driving Machine" mission statement ever since the introduction of the "New Class" 1500 sedan at Frankfurt in 1961. In the case of the X3, BMW has managed to combine surprising off-road ability with-as you noted-the responsive handling of a 3er sedan. Now, if Munich would only cook up a "3.5is" version...
  • Wow, that's one impressive list of cars I must say. But do you drive/own any other brands, beside the Jeep???

    After having owned BMW's (325ic, 330ix, Z4, X5) for about 20 years, my cousin is switching to another "snob mobile": Lexus. His next car will be a Lexus (RX330 most likely). The one thing he says he'll miss about BMW is how grabby the brakes feel. To him that's the essential BMW character. :confuse:
  • div2div2 Posts: 2,580
    But do you drive/own any other brands, beside the Jeep???

    There are a lot of very nice cars on the market these days. As I mentioned earlier, we seriously considered an Xterra Off Road instead of the X3 but we finally decided it was a bit over the top for a daily commuter. In the past decade we've also owned a 1993 Pathfinder SE and a 1984 T-Bird 5 speed Turbo Coupe. Back in 2001 we were ready to pull the trigger on a CPO Audi A4 Quattro, but the local Audi dealer tried to pull a fast one(as usual) so we drove over to the BMW dealer and bought a CPO 528i. I'm also first in line to buy a pristine 1967 Cougar XR-7 when/if the original owner ever decides to flip it. My cars don't have to be BMWs, but they do have to be somewhat interesting.
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    I'm not sure I follow. The fact is the RAV does not come remotely close to any performance attribute of the Cayenne Turbo.

    But pitted against the X3, the gaps are much narrower. In some aspects the RAV actually goes one up on the X.

    I think the RAV will not compared well with a fully-loaded, sport-suspensioned X3 3.0 (especially if it gets the 255hp motor, and 6-speed steptronic). But I have seen, and driven a base (or lightly optioned) X3 2.5, and that model is nothing to write home about, anyway you look at it. It's underpowered, with few amenities and lux features, has cheap-looking material inside and out. To me, it disgraces the BMW marque. You can't tell me the RAV with V6 doesn't eclipse it. If I can only afford to buy an X3 in that guise, I'm not going to waste my time with a pretender. I'll rather go with a loaded "lower" brand.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "You can't tell me the RAV with V6 doesn't eclipse"

    Eclipse it how? It's just another option. Rather than Acura's take or not approach, BMW allows one to completely customize the vehicle. While the 2.5 isn't the speediest demon on the block it's meant as an entry level engine, with the same great handling characteristics as the other models. Whether or not the marquee is disgraced? I don't know but they seem to be selling quite well. I remember when the Boxster first came out. It was then said the Boxster disgraced the Porsche marquee. It seems to me the Boxster and X3 have something in common...a different vehicle than each manufacturer has previous made in an attempt to broaden their customer base.

    To some the new RAV4 might be a good value. Choosing the RAV4 over the 2.5 due to hp is an individual decision about priorities.
  • driver100driver100 Burlington, ON 7 mo/Tampa FL 5 moPosts: 19,126
    Beautifully said KD -sums it up perfectly.

    This all started with buying a less expensive RAV instead of an X3 so the kid could have a Yuris to go to university.

    IMO dad should get a car he will truly be happy with and Junior should get a job and buy his own Yuros or Yugo or whatever.

    Hopefully Junior will learn to earn money to buy his own car one day, which might even be a BMW!

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • My uncle (ex-military fighter pilot) used to have one of those T-Bird turbo, until he ran it into a street light and totalled it.

    I haven't owned a BMW yet. My 330i w/sport won't be here until the end of January, and we might even cancel the deal before then. But I have tested a few, and the one thing that tickles my curiosity is that ride has the best compromise between performance/sport and luxury. This aspect, however, is missing from the X3. According to some reviewers (and my cousin), the X3 ride is harsh and brittle especially with the sport package.

    I personally haven't set foot in it yet. SUV or SAV are not my thing. :P I prefer seating closer to the ground.
  • davidc1davidc1 Posts: 168
    Perhaps someone should create a X3 vs. RAV4 discussion? As far as the numbers go, I do think the new RAV4 will beat the X3 even with 255hp motor since the Toyota should be a lot lighter (I believe mags clocked RAV4 dong 0-60 in 6.5 secs). But I doubt a typical BMW buyer will cross-shop RAV4. That's just my guess. Non BMW fans might compare the two though.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,572
    Since large portions of the recent thread didn't focus much on the SUV, we decided to do a little year-end housecleaning.

    Steve, Host
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    There exists an archived thread X3 vs Forester vs ???. The Forester XT turbo has been clocked to 60 in under 5.3 seconds. It's fast. It's reliable. It's rated very highly by CR/IIHS etc. And the XT Turbo premium only has a hint of luxury.

    In the comparo forum there were some very passionate arguments made toward the Forester and all of them were on the money. If one discounted the handling, amenities, feel of the car, and one doesn't have the extra 10 grand for the 3L the Forester is a compelling choice. If one has the extra money and discount the Foresters' fiery acceleration the X3 wins, IMO.

    I suspect this will be something similiar with the RAV4. The Toyota fans are going to say hp, 0-60, value. The BMW fans are going to say handling, amenties and general performance. Nobody will be wrong. Just don't try to convince a BMW fan that HP = better performance. And don't try to convice a Toyota fan that BMW makes a better car.

    BTW - I found the X3 to be as compliant as the old E46 in terms of ride. The sport package admittedly is a bit harsh, but it is an option.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,572
    Out of the archives; we'll add the RAV4 to it for grins and see if others find the comparison apt.

    BMW X3 vs Subaru Forester/XT vs Infiniti FX 35

    Steve, Host
  • bodble2bodble2 Posts: 4,519
    The V6 is more than just an engine option. (Well, maybe in US it is). And the base X3 2.5 is not just an X3 with a entry-level engine. A vehicle in that price range with vinyl seats, plastic bumper covers, no Homelink, alarm? Well, it's your money. No engine, no lux, but it has THE FEEL!! Ok. But like I said, it's your $$. To each his own.

    Maybe the US market is different. But in Canada they have had low interest lease deals on the 2.5 for as long as I can recall. So they offer inducements 'cause the car is selling like hotcakes? :confuse: And I kinda doubt the situation is any different down south.
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