Cadillac STS/STS-V: What's New for 2007?

libertycat

Anyone interested in the upcoming Cadillac STS which replaces the Seville? I doubt Cadillac will make it an ultra luxury sedan as the current one is mid-level, but I hope they do since they already have the mid-level Deville. I can't wait till Edmunds has some pictures.

Kirstie_H

You might want to swing over to the Future Vehicles board, where there's a lot of discussion on future Cadillac models. You can use the Browse by Message Board feature in the gray sidebar at the left to get there.

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

fjk57702

There has not been much information on the STS. We know that it will be rear wheel drive on the sigma platform (CTS, SRX). There has been talk of a V6 as well as the V8. May offer 4 wheel drive. The STS_V version may offer the V12 that the Cien had (but not with 750 horsepower). Price range will probably (with V6) move downward from present levels. If they use much the same interior as the SRX, the price will probably be down from present levels too. This would permit a higher end something to come in on the sigma platform later. (like a twelve or a sixteen) (Fleetwood Sixty Special)

cadman88

This is what I have heard from insiders on another board. It will get a V6, V8, and probably a V12. The interior will be STS only, meaning it will not look like the CTS, unique to the STS. There will be an AWD version, probably named STX, X for AWD. There could be a coupe and/or convertible, but thats just speculation right now. The DTS (2006) Deville, will move up a little, above the STS, and a S-Class/7-Series/A8, ect. model will be produced above the DTS.

fjk57702

The DeVille is now marketed as 3 distinct models, so the DTS/DHS could be a bit up market relative to the STS. I would expect the high end model (S-class/7-series equivalent) to be a sigma platform RWD model. I would hope that the STS gets a different interior than the CTS/SRX. The STS should be more up market than the SRX. With both a V6 and V8 the STS will encompass a wider market than it currently does. The V6 should be a price leader.

Kirstie_H

This discussion will be moving over to the Future Vehicles board later today -- you can get there using the Browse by Message Board feature in the gray sidebar at the left!

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

arenn

Does anybody have any concrete info on this car? I've been scouring the net but coming up almost completely empty. With MB redoing the E-class and BMW redoing the 5-series both about a year before the STS is supposed to debut, this gives Caddy a great opportunity to leapfrog the competition - if they do it right. I'd be interested in knowing what direction they were going in.

libertycat

I hope Cadillac makes the jump from the mid-level luxury Seville to a full-size STS replacement. The Deville already fills the mid-level position at Cadillac so right now at Cadillac it is a little awkward with two vehicles competing against each other. Most likely the one main reason to get a Seville is the fact you could probably get huge discounts on it. Anyway, if Cadillac wants to truly compete with Lexus, Infiniti, Audi, and BMW, they need to make a fun-to-drive FULL-SIZE luxury sedan with lots of room, lots of gadgets and a price under $60,000. IMO, the Infiniti Q45 is the best of this class and it has a starting price around $50,000 so hopefully Cadillac can do as well as the Q45 for a similar price.

regfootball

they ought to just make AWD standard on a car that expensive and not even screw with a RWD only version. Unless the folks in AZ only want RWD.

garnes

Don't you think traction control is adequate for RWD? Doesn't it control the acceleration in snow for RWD? I have never driven RWD with traction control. I've heard it helps a lot though.

As a side note - I think traction control on FWD is silly. I find it worthless as the FWD is pretty solid through the slippery stuff all by itself.

gearman

Here are some brief observations from a recent inspection of an STS prototype:

As has been cited on the Catera and CTS boards, The 2005 STS is built on the same Sigma platform as the CTS and SRX vehciles. That will bring the considerable benefits of double a arm suspension geometry to the front and rear,

At first glance, the STS appears to be a slightly larger CTS, but with some subtle styling improvements to reduce the jarring surface juxapostions so characteristic of the CTS.

In profile, the STS presents similar volumn proportions as the CTS.

From the front, the four stacks of vertical lights are very similar to those seen on the SRX, as is the grille treatment.

From the rear, the appearance is more similar to the XLR than to the CTS.

Overall, I found the exterior appearance to be more appealing and less challenging than the CTS.

The STS features vented rotors at all four corners, but I was disappointed to note that they are single piston units as opposed to multiple piston units; I have recommended the use of 4 pot Brembos instead, particularly on the v series.

The interior is a mixed bag. The instrument panel is a noticeable improvement over the gimmicky "home computer theme' CTS center stack arrangement and other odd bits. The proposed STS dash has more traditional appearance.

The proposed STS instrument panel is a more coherent design than the bizarre BMW 745 arrangement (oh goody, gimme column shift again ! How many computer mouse wheel clicks to change the radio station? And unlike the silly 745 will all of that shiny brushed metal stuck to every edging, the STS was tastefully restrained. Let BMW try to recreate the 54 Mecury or the 58 Buick with their love of metal decoration. Overall, the STS did not strike me as being up to audi 8L standards in this specific area.

The door panels on the STS were my least favorite parts: They appear to have the same shapings as the CTS panels, but with slighly improved plastics. Wood trim is applied to the horizontal sufaces surrounding the window controls, but not to the doors as is the case on the current STS, the new audi 8L, the Jaguars, etc. Instead, the use of wood trim had an unfortunate low rent Toyota / Lexus appearance. Room for improvement, but then again, this was a prototype.

The seat tracks are improved over the current STS's exposed tracks, and the grab handles are the damped type that one finds in VW's Golf and other cars cars.

My overall reaction to the interior is that it's a bit improved over the cheap and cheesy CTS interior, but it's far from class competitive in terms of fit/finish and material quality. The French company that supplies VW's higher end interiors should be consulted on the matter of the STS interior.

Styling issues aside, GM's interior designers, should spend a couple of minutes inside VW's higher end products, particularly the Toureg and the Audi A6 and the new A8L, to understand what is the current standard in this price class of car. Even some lowly Toyota and Nissan products offer rear window sun shades, why not the CTS, STS, etc?

Positive features are the possiblity of awd and a V-12 engine for the STS-V.

considerable thought has been given to some interesting systems interfaces, including the possiblity of linking the high-beam circuit into the adaptable cruise control distance measuring system to produce a simple means to automatically dim the high beams when approaching slower cars from the rear.

The proposed Bose sounds system will again be class leading, so that's another terrific feature.

Seat shaping has been given some careful thought. The seats are wonderfully contoured, and have a very similar feel and multiple density cushioning as found in the Catera (!) and in the new Maybach sedan, and to my rear end at least, more comfortably shaped than in the BMW 745 or Toyota's Lexus 430 (Having spent some time in all four of those cars last weekend).

As is the case on the Catera, (not the CTS), the current STS, the 5 & 7 series BMWs. the E & S class Mercedes, Toyota's larger Lexus products and Renault's higher end Infinity products, The STS offered rear ventilation with a rear compartment control panel for use by rear seat passengers. Unlike the E mercedes, the vents are limited to under seat and the end of the cener consul; there are no B pillar rear vents which are becoming a class standard. Unlike Toyota's LS430 product, the STS did not appear to offer the sort of sophisiticated rear control panel accessible in the center armrest. Rear seat cushion and seatback adjustments did not appear to be offered, which is a curious absence in this class.

To be confirmed is the availability of fold down rear seats, but they are expected in this class and likely given that the Sigma structure permits their provision on the CTS.

Unknown at this point is whether the awd version will employ the sophisticated and effective awd software that Ford developed for use on the Volvo R sedan and other upcoming higher end products. That software permits rapid changes in torque distribution front /rear and side / side based upon multiple measurements including speed, rate of longitudinal acceleration / deceleration, rate of lateral acceleration / deceleration, rate of yaw acceleration / deceleration, speed of gas pedal release and brake pedal application, and rate of steering wheel movement. As a result, the car will seamlessly transition from an oversteering mode at corner entrance into an understeering (and yaw acceleration damping) mode upon throttle application at corner exit. Terrific stuff, and if Ford's using it on a $38k Volvo, GM should be using it on a $50k Cadillac.

Overall, I thought that the STS is off to a very good start, with some obvious room for improvement in the areas of brake caliper design, and interior materials / fit / finish.

arenn

Thanks for the informative posting. I'm not sure where Caddy plans to position the STS yet. I guess I see it probably as a 540i/E-class competitor. So it would probably not have all the refinement of the 7-series for example. But some of your comments are troubling. What is the world would it take to get GM to create a class leading interior? With BMW and MB having all new versions of their mid-luxury sedans, the STS has to be at the top of its game in every respect. Or it will fare poorly compared to the E 500 et al.

I consider the revamped STS to be the key product of the Caddy revitalization. If they get it right, they'll have huge momentum behind them with what will finally be a broad enough base product line to compete with the Germans and Japanese. If they come out lackluster, they could really stumble. The shortcomings of the initial CTS were forgiven because the expectations were so low. With the very positive reviews the XLR and SRX are getting, as well as the sales momentum of the CTS, the bar has been raised. The STS should not leave the factory until it has been nothing less than perfected to the point where it is class leading in every respect.

Cheers.

merc1

I too think that was a very good review if I buy it.......kidding. How did you get a look???

M

libertycat

is very cheap on all their makes from Chevy to Saab besides Cadillac. Looking inside a Deville, Seville, or CTS, I see excellent quality that works well too. I, for one, refuse to complain about Cadillac quality as it is great. However, GM needs to improve their other brands' quality starting with Saab, then Buick, then Pontiac, then Saturn, then GMC, then Chevy, and lastly Hummer. I believe the quality of the Deville AND Seville is ABOVE the quality of an E Class, 5 Series, S80, and A6 and equal to that of the Town Car.

merc1

eehhh what?

M

msgreen

Many thanks for the review. Can you tell us where you were able to see the prototype? I fully agree with your comments about the interior. Cadillac MUST get this right. I am constantly amazed at auto companies trying to save a few bucks on the interiors of their cars only to turn off many buyers. It cannot possibly cost much more money to put in higher quality materials and those cost could be passed on. No one looking at such a car will balk for a couple of hundred bucks more. You did not say much about engines. Can you tell us what the prototype had? Horsepower or any other details? Thanks

libertycat

I don't think much engine information is available yet; I'm interested in that too.

libertycat

you had BETTER put a whole darn lot of wood (definitely as much as Seville or even more) in the STS or else this one current advantage (lots of wood) of the Seville and Deville in my mind will vanish and I will forgot about Cadillac. I wish the CTS had more wood trim than it has. The Ford Taurus SEL has more wood trim than the CTS, LOL!

eaton53

Maybe you should be looking at Jags.... they got a whole plank across the dashboard.

I want Cadillac to concentrate on performance, not maximum wood content.

logic1

I hate wood in cars. High quality metal. Fine. Wood. Maybe if I want my car to look like a '70s era rec room.

At the very least, maybe Caddy could do like Mercedes and its AMG varients and offer a wood interior on the base model and pure metal and plastic interior for those of us who pay big money for cars because we happen to like machines.

msgreen

I stopped in at my local dealer yesterday to look at a new 04 CTS on their lot; however, I spent most of my time talking to the rep about the upcoming STS. He claims that it will be out in late Spring next year and will have both the 3.6 V6 and 4.6 V8 engines available (260 and 320hp, respectively). Otherwise, it will be a slightly larger CTS, with some styling tweaks and higher grade materials inside. May also have a six speed auto transmission, and an AWD option. He said that no prices were out yet, but that the V6 would probably be somewhere under 50K and the V8 over 50K. I have read similar stuff on other boards and in car mags, so we'll see....

libertycat

Wood is beautiful. Not old fashioned on the inside; only the outside. The current Seville and Deville have nice wood and I HATE aluminum trim. Lots of companies are easily able to do both (powerful and nice interior).

logic1

wood and aluminum. I would go with the metal.

Depending upon the mpgs, I would probably also want the 3.6 with the 6 speed auto. RWD only please. I love being able to push the rear end out when the mood strikes.

wsag26

With the ElDorado gone, Cadillac has told us in actions that they want to get rid of "old people cars" and want class. First, the Catera showed signs, then the redesigned Escalade in music videos and all for a while, the CTS, the awaited SRX, and the V-series models coming in Early 2004 including the first, CTS V.

The STS should be the perfect replacement for the Seville. Wonder if the DeVille will keep it up or get replaced (leave Lincoln in the pond alone Cadillac, there Town Car is still a boring vehicle). The STS will include V-6, V-8s, and probably a V-12 (no surprise, if Caddy Escalade is coming out with a 500 horsepower V-12, which will let it regain the power of being the most powerful SUV IN THE WORLD). I haven't got any pictures yet, only the same one that Edmunds.COm has. If I do, I will update.

libertycat

I'm glad you're also able to see my side (liking wood). I'll respect your opinion too.

eaton53

But only where it is appropriately integrated into the design.

That's easy in a Jag, a little tougher when your car looks like a stealth fighter.

b4z

Why not various "atmospheres" like what Audi offers?

mrmanguy25

To those of you who expect the STS to compete with the S class and 7 series, you are crazy. How can you call the DeVille mid-level? Have you sat in one? It is a huge car. When it get's redone, it will be the S class and 7 series competitor. The Seville has been, and always will be smaller than the DeVille (ever since it's introduction in the 70's I believe). I think that with a bump in power, the sigma RWD platform, and a redesign, the STS will compete well with the E class and 5 series very well.

arenn

I too would expect the STS to compete against the E-class and 5-series. Both of those cars have been completely redone. The E-class is top notch. I will assume that BMW will only improve the 5-series as well. That makes it critical for Cadillac to get it right with the STS. Below grade interiors might slip by in a $30K C-class competitor like the CTS, where other factors can override that. In a $50K car where the competition is so strong all around, this would be a disaster.

arenn

The Car Connection has spy photos of what is ostensibly the new STS.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6161&sid=17- 8&n=158

The accompanying text says things that are contrary to what I've heard from other sources about the car to date (e.g., saying it will be built on the Epsilon platform), so YMMV.

libertycat

The Deville is priced mid-level and is full-size, but price and features is what matters when making classes. Since when is aluminum and black interiors considered sporty? I think it's plain ugly. It's all a matter of opinon and I think it would be easy to make a sporty car with beige leather and lots of wood inside but a sporty look outside. The Seville costs more than the Deville currently so that is why we think it might be the ultra luxury and the next Deville (probably called the DTS) will be mid-level.

arenn

Here's an STS article from Auto Week.

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=06802167

According to the article's sources, the STS is being positioned as a 5-series competitor, not a 7-series competitor. From what I have read, there is still a big debate going on about whether or not to make the DTS part of the "new Cadillac" or to keep it as a luxury boat for existing customers. I can see the tempation for the latter as the DeVille is Caddy's best seller and a new S-class type car would likely sell far less units per year (even MB sells less than 2K per month - though surely at obscene profit levels)

Interesting that it sounds like Caddy is not planning on doing a V12 based V-series, given the "400HP" figure quoted. The CTS-V already has that, no? Oh well, it is too early in the cycle to debate this. I remember the will it be the LS6 or LS1 for the CTS-V discussion. (I admit to having ulterior motives for wanting the V12 - I want Caddy to start production on the XV12 which puts us a step closer to the Cien).

eaton53

To compete with the S-Class.

Leave the DeVille FWD with the Art & Science treatment.

libertycat

libertycat

The Seville should be mid-level luxury sport and the Deville ultra luxury. I like the new Cadillac styling and hope they both have slightly different versions of it. If they had a DTS (next Deville) and STS available with AWD, I wouldn't mind the ending of FWD. I need AWD where I live.

regfootball

it would be ok for caddy to leave a big large FWD car in the lineup as a volume seller, like the Deville is now.

As long as it had a HALO car that could rival the E class or Sclass

msgreen

this car needs to be positioned opposite the 5 series BMW and E class Mercedes, not the 7 and S classes. As it is, the STS is likely to be a 50K+ car, which is close to the upper bounds of where Cadillac has operated with any volume. They need to ensure that they can solidify a customer base in this area and not try to jump into the more shaky ground above 60K with a car that is one of their bread and butter cars. If the STS is a success and attracts a serious following, then it can move more up scale in the future (see Lexus 400/430 history). For starters, however, Caddy needs to get the STS right. Top notch quality interior, very good paint, and merciless testing to wring out as many bugs as possible before it hits the show rooms. Material quality will be very important and will send all kinds of messages. Great performance and lousy materials will not win over many BMW/Mercedes/Lexus owners. Cadillac is moving in the right direction and this is a great opportunity to "get it right" from the start.

libertycat

LOL, except the Seville probably will start in low 40's with a standard V8 and the Deville will start in the low 50's. DTS=7 Series, A8, XJ Type, Q45 competitor, STS=E Class, M45, GS300/430 competitor. I think Cadillac currently has GREAT material quality and unless they change that, it still will.

regfootball

even if caddy moves upscale they still need a huge plush FWD boat like the Deville for cheap as an aspirational car for those geezers and others who never quite found out cadillacs weren't worth aspiring to anymore.

its looking up with the XLR CTS and SRX though, things are looking good.

but cmon, why doesn't the new CTS motor have the manual available.

libertycat

They could make a RWD sports sedan that is big and luxurious (the DTS) and everyone would be happy. I mean, old folks love the RWD Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis. They would be stuck with those unless they could afford the $50,000 sticker price for the DTS, which hopefully will be roomy, sporty, luxurious, and powerful. It is possible to make a sports sedan that can also please the elderly.

logic1

into the niche currently filled by the DeVille.

Unfortunately, GM has not given much to go by on the new Buick sedans, so it is hard to judge whether the strategy will work.

Edmunds review of the new Buick Ranier is encouraging. Apparently the SUV is quieter with noticeably softer driving characteristics than its less pricey Chevy and GMC cousins. Not for me, but arguably in line with what the future DeVille type buyer will look for.

libertycat

That is exactly what GM is saying.

msgreen

would agree that Caddy's have GREAT material quality, especially if you compare their interiors to Audi, Lexus, etc. Yes, they are better than their run of the mill GM brethren; but not yet "the best". There are plenty of complaints about interior materials quality on any number of internet boards. My point is that the additional cost for a level or two higher materials quality is usually not much and can make a huge difference in a buyer's perception of the car on first glance. Given that the STS is still about a year or so away, I would hope that Cadillac is going to ensure that when it hits the show rooms it is READY to compete big time with some of these other top brands. Pricing it a few hundred bucks more and blowing away buyers with beautiful interiors and paint is one way to do it without notable design changes. Maybe, as you suggest, they will do this anyway. My point is that they had better do it, given how important the STS will be to the company's overall image and bottom line.

libertycat

Mercedes, Volvo, and Audi and equal to Lexus and Lincoln. I know others feel differently but this is how I feel. I HATE BMW interiors especially, because they just look soooooooooooooooooooooooo ummmmmmmmmm i don't know how to describe it, they look very slapped together in a hurry and not very luxurious at all.

merc1

Do you feel the 7-Series interior looks "slapped together" also, since it's of a different design school from all previous BMW interiors?

M

libertycat

I think all BMW interiors look that way. I don't know how to describe it. They look very unattractive from the 3 Series to the new 7 Series and 5 Series. They just have ugly looking wood trim and seats and look very ugly to me.

merc1

Wow. I've never heard that before. What interiors do you find attractive?

M

Kirstie_H

Hey guys - there's an active topic on BMW styling. Let's take this discussion there and leave this one for Cadillac enthusiasts.

libertycat

FGS, kirstie. No one could POSSIBLY love Cadillacs more than me.

libertycat

I find Cadillac, Jaguar, Lincoln, and Lexus interiors attractive. Audi and Mercedes interiors aren't bad. Saab and BMW interiors ARE bad.

notyourname

http://www.gminsidenews.com/sts_spied.shtml