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Synthetic Oil Alternative

pmoskalpmoskal Member Posts: 25
edited March 2014 in Toyota
I was thinking of getting on the bandwagon and using synthetic oil for my vehicles after reading all the articles, but then I came to my senses after experience and some research was done. With a 13 year old Integra , a 5 yr old Sienna and a new 03 Avalon, I'm not convinced any of my vehicles will get synthetic oil put into it now -or- in the future.
For any engine 5 years and older I recommend through experience, to use a name brand-name oil and simply add a can of "BG MOA" oil additive. (ask you dealer on the next oil change..cars love this MOA). This product added on every oil change will have the equivalent benefits for the internal engine working... Most people change their oil every 3K-5K anyway so why spend the extra money when a can of MOA costs around $8. You will get the high temperature protection that you get with synthetic. You can purchase this at your local car dealer's servcie center (at oil change time) or at a local gas station(if you're a do-it-yourselfer) People say that the 'engine runs smoother', and 'I get better gas mileage' when switching to synthetic. My own experience, over many years, in using BG MOA in the engine along with using premium fuel (& not the 85/87 octane molatov cocktail stuff)is the same 'engine runs smoother' and 'I get better gas mileage. Same quotes as for the synthetic users so why go to it. Try this alternative.
Note, older engines will leak as soon as you put synthetic oil into them after being on regular oil. A can or 2 of BG MOA may even save that old engine.
I may even start using BG MOA on my new Avalon to really give it a treat. Don't forget also to once a year to use BG 44K in you fuel system. I welcome your questions.

Comments

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    pmoskalpmoskal Member Posts: 25
    travelerjb

    Interesting story you have. However you need not have change to a synthetic so soon, 80 miles into the XLS. Its a wash either way based on what I have heard. You need to first do the break-in period on your car, as mfgs recommend. Mechanics ech this statement, I would not even recommend using MOA in the first 500 miles. You said you did 2 months research...well I have 10 years experience in vehicles from 1977 to 2003 that synthetic is no better than regular brand-name oil with a can of BG MOA...same great benefits as you elude to ...
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    fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Put Red Line polyol ester based synthetic in your engine and you'll see what synthetic can be. I see no reason to use MOA in perfectly adequate hydrocracked petroleum engine oil. The latest SL lubricants are meeting standards that do not need boosting, or adulterating, with additives.
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    pmoskalpmoskal Member Posts: 25
    Thanks for your input 'fleetwood'. It helps explain my case for a viable synthetic oil alternative.
    The reason for MOA is to have the same benefits as if you were to use synthetic oil but at less money. Remember why synthetic was invented ... so the oil companies can get more $$$ & for those folks that do not do frequent oil changes. So what 'fleetwood' is saying is that if petro oil has good lubricants there is not need to add MOA.

    To conclude then, for a 'premium oil change' give your engine a can MOA --or-- if you want to spend the extra money, and support Mobil1 stock, use that synthetic oil. I saw what 4 cans of MOA did for a old engine(even my old 77 Olds 98) ...restored it similar to what 'fleetwood' is referring to if you put a 'Red Line polyol' into the engine. MOA & Mobil 1 is readily available.
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    travelerjbtravelerjb Member Posts: 46
    First of all the research I've done has born out exactly the opposite result. That the racing history as well as engine manufacturing techniques that have changed over the years has only reinforced my feelings about the clear superiority of fully synthetic oil (particularly Mobil One). Their track record since 1974 (the first year I began using it) is flawless, and now even SAAB has factory fill of it from the factory for your so called "break in" period. That nowadays is a pure fabrication which many uneducated (most mechanics these days don't know JACK anyway) mechanics seem to be brain dead about in the first place. I have a few friends that build engines and one has a wall full of plaques from various engineering schools for such things. He swears by Mobil One and wouldn't have dino oil in ANYTHING with moving parts. LOL. I totally agree with my high mileage car experience over the last 28 years. If you REALLY did your research it could only reveal ONE thing. That there isn't even a comparison between the two oil types, and all you're doing is trying to save money. Oh, and as for your "wonder" product which is nothing more than the old "honey oil" additive trick, it's still in NO way shape or form an approximation for the shear protection and superior lubricative properties that fully synthetics offer PERIOD. Again, it's YOUR money and you spend it the way you want to. Let's compare our engines after 250,000 miles and I can assure you it's going to be a "NO contest" deal. The Mobil One WINS hands down every time. I've seen it too many times with engines dismantles and revealing a pure, non worn, and spotlessly clean surface where as with regular dino oil NO WAY does it protect in the friction dept. that way at all. Break in is a pure fabrication for those that REALLY know what they are doing. Secondly "polising" in the tolerances is WAY better than "breaking" them in as the tolerances will remain much tighter and last the entire lifetime of the car as opposed to slowly increasing with time as well as shrinking your various seals (which dino oil has been PROVEN to do over time. Look at the bottom of the average car using oil and look at the bottom of my last 5 cars using Mobil One after putting over 250,000 miles on them. BONE DRY........DISCUSSION OVER...........
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    gnawk719gnawk719 Member Posts: 14
    If one is to use synthetic oil, should the same frequency between oil changes(i.e. every 3500-4000 miles) be used? Or can it be extended somewhat? About 75% of mileage is highway.
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    bretfrazbretfraz Member Posts: 2,021
    That's one of the major benefits of synthetics, being able to go more miles between changes. How many more miles is not an easy answer. While many people will spit out a number (7500, 10000, 15000, whatever) the only accurate way of knowing how far you can extend your drain intervals is by oil analysis. This will tell you how well the oil is holding up, what is going on inside your engine, and can help you accurately determine how many miles to go between changes.

    For example, I recently drove over 6500 miles on Mobil One before changing it. After sending in a sample for analysis it was determined that the additives package in the oil was almost gone. There was no sense in going further than 6500 miles so in the future I will change it a little sooner. So it doesn't matter if someone says, "sure, you can go 10,000 miles, no problem". That advice does not apply to you, your car, or your needs, only their's.

    Hope this helps. Good luck.
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    fowvayfowvay Member Posts: 29
    I'd love to see some laboratory analysis of the impact of adding this MOA. The last two editions of Lubes-n-Greases magazine has had editorial articles addressing the oil additive market and MOA was specifically mentioned.

    What happens to the pour point and flash point once you upset the chemical balance of your oil? Does it become more volatile? What about the basic resistance to aeration? Additives are murder on this one aspect of fluid reaction.

    Blindly adding additives to oil is a bad thing. If for some reason you feel that you NEED to add additives to your oil then you are simply using the wrong oil.

    If you think that synthetic oil was invented to simply add more money to the pockets of the oil manufacturer then why do you think the snake oil industry was started? BG, the company that produces MOA, also sells a line of synthetic oils that they tout as having a 15,000 mile drain interval. It's funny how these companies talk about having such a wonderful product but they have to market additives also. I question Valvolines actions in this matter too.
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    8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    One of the things MOA does give you is a roadside assistance program with it.

    For the extra $8 per oil change...I can make up the difference using synthetic oil from the start.

    BG 44K is the best fuel system cleaner out there.
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    pmoskalpmoskal Member Posts: 25
    Toyota's national service center tech said that they don't recomend synthetics at all in there cars but if you would like to switch you need to wait at least 1000 miles for the car to break in.
    I may consider synthetic at the my first oil change service but not earlier.

    Undoubtably BG's 44K is the best fuel system cleaner out there. Do you have any experince with Chevron's Techron product and if so, does it even compare to BG's 44K.
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    8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    Back when I had a Camry V6, with a pinging problem, my experience with Techron Clean-Up, to me was a waste of money. I hear a lot of good things about the Techron stuff.

    Ever since I tried the BG 44K, it cured my pinging problem (by removing the carbon deposits in the combustion chamber). It's rather expensive, at $20 a can. But it's something you can use once a year.
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    fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    The best synthetic alternative is current hydrocracked petroleum. Topic over.
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    pmoskalpmoskal Member Posts: 25
    Can someone explain what is meant with a
    hydrocracked petroleum engine.
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    8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    just run a quick search for

    "hydrocracked" in the search engine on the side.

    It will come up with the result you need
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    travelerjbtravelerjb Member Posts: 46
    and I'm very glad its YOUR cars you're using that dino oil in and NOT mine. Go right ahead and continue to belive the myth. I figure my proof is that I've been using it successfully for over 28 years and 5 cars with very high mileage to prove my point. You can all go on believing what you wish (and I can see you intend to). There's nothing new about this in human behavior. As I said, glad you do that in YOUR cars and not mine...........
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    pmoskalpmoskal Member Posts: 25
    Travelerjb, are you referring to the Hydrocracked stuff. If its about hydrocracked then we wait for Fleetwood.
    You may of voided your warranty , dog-gone-it, by switching at the 80 mile mark. People please don't switch so soon. Read your owner's manual , ask at the dealership. Nothing will happen people if you wait 'til your first oil change (3K or 5K) if you really need to switch to synthetic. Your new Toyota will run fine for years to come and needs to break-in in the beginning for Christ's sake. Syn Oil is too good to put into it right away. Maybe one day Toyota will catch-up and use synthetic, out of the factory, but until that time the Avalon needs to run on new Toyota Oil for at last the first 1000 miles and not be replaced / tappered with by introducing syn.oil any sooner. END OF DISCUSSION.
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    zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    Now, it's over!

    What was all that childishness about??
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    travelerjbtravelerjb Member Posts: 46
    when it comes to the final discovery that in fact fully synthetic oil (I prefer Mobil One) as the oil to BEGIN an engines life no matter what brand is the RIGHT thing to do. I feel my having done this and proven it's viability with the last 5 cars and exceeding a quarter million miles with each car proof enough for me and may that have followed my advice. In the end it provides a cleaner and tighter engine PERIOD with NO exception. Just because top BMW, SAAB, Chrysler and Corvette's come STOCK right from the factory with nothing less than Mobil One in the crankcase with NO miles on them to begin with says a hell of a lot to start with. I may end up a test case to prove that you can often ignore books and manuals to your advantage in cases like this one. I'll be glad to let you all know as time goes on how wonderful my new Avalon XLS runs as it so called "breaks in" LOL. It already runs as smooth as a babys butt, and you can't tell it's even on at idle. It runs like a raped ape and still get's 31mpg so far at 80mph on the open freeway to date. My next big trip comes up in June where I'll take it from Salt Lake up through Washington, Oregon, California and Arizona home. I have NO doubt that by then it will have proven that using the Mobil One from the start has born out some wonderful advantages. We shall indeed see..........(p.s. By the way I now have 1100 miles on it and the oil is still that brand new very light almost transparent honey color....can you say CLEAN?)
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    fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    For sticking your hand into the vortex of the black hole and pulling me out of that alternative universe! I'll see you in threads where IQs reach three figures.
    Now, it's over!
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    sparky53sparky53 Member Posts: 13
    I bought my xls in Nov.02,changed to Mobil One at 1000 miles.It is now May & I have only 1900 miles on it.Is it important that the oil should be changed after a certain amount of time even though the required mileage has not been reached.thanks for any help in this matter.
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    tbonertboner Member Posts: 402
    I put Mobil1 in my 1987 LeSabre at 55K miles and:

    - My whites are whiter and my colors don't fade.
    - My glasses don't streak
    - Women notice me at stop lights
    - I lost 36 pounds
    - My hair is more shiney

    and it took 3" off my waist size, LOL

    BTW, I think this article has the information about different ways of producing "synthetic" oils.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article- _id=3631

    Here's what happened, according to a detailed account published in the trade magazine Lubricants World. Late in 1997, Castrol changed the formula of its Syntec "full synthetic motor oil," eliminating the polyalphaolefin (PAO) base stock (that's the "synthetic" part, which makes up about 70 percent by volume of what's in the bottle) and replacing it with a "hydroisomerized" petroleum base stock.

    So maybe that is the hydrowhatchamawhoozits he meant?

    TB
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    8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    Here's the short story on the hydrocracking'

    It's similar to how oil companies extract the last bit of gasoline in crude oil.

    the left over by-products are stuff like motor oil, diesel, & kerosene

    Basically in a similar process the heavy motor oil is put in a pressurized hydrogen-rich environment. The pressurized environment raises the heat of the oil and is exposed to a catalyst which "purifies" the oil, leaving a "purer" conventional base stock, which has better properties than the "contaminated" base stock. Some studies have shown that the hydrocracked oil has properties similar (not quite meeting) to of a PAO (synthetic) base stock.

    Even though Mobil 1 is used from the factory, it is likely that it is not the same stuff that you buy at the auto parts stores, as the various manufacturers specify certain characteristics which Exxon-Mobil uses a special additive package than the ones on a store shelf.
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    zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    let's go find one, if we can!

    I wasn't dogging you, by the way, just joining in on the fun and foolishness.

    Soapbox mode - "On"

    I'm happy when someone tries a product, likes it, and sticks with it. That's good. That's so much better than changing types of oil, bar soap, hairspray, whatever, more frequently than changing underwear - too much change for no reason, and while change is good, it's nice to have a few stable things in our lives. For instance, I still use the same Trac II razor my folks gave me when I was 15 - through high school, ten years in the military and then some - I'm 39 now.

    At the same time, when people adopt an attitude that "What I use is the best and you're an idiot if you don't use the same thing I do", they become morons.

    It's ridiculous to think that just because I use a Trac II, my son can't use his high-zoot (and $27 for a pack of refills!) Mach 3 razor. He likes it, go figure.

    I see that a lot on these boards. There are very few people with actual engineering or mechanical qualifications or experience, yet so many will call people stupid because we don't follow them into the horizon. Why should we?

    They don't (most of the time) have a clue as to what they're talking about. They read an article, talked to some guy at work about it, so now they're an expert. Go figure.

    I'll use whatever oil I want in my car, based on my research and experience. And I have a lot of experience and have done lots of research. I'm not, however, going to come in here and basically call people stupid (like a few in this topic have) because you or they don't use "my brand".

    Soapbox mode - "off"

    I'm off to harrass the Hyundai and Kia guys about resale value.
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    fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    I will now move my "soap box" to other venues, like you, zueslewis! (:o]
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    swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    or french perfume? those are both alternatives to synthetic oil. only trouble is, they don't meet its lubrication and breakdown resistance standards. sorta like adding extra compounds to petroleum oil.

    oil and its permutations is a rather contentious subject, and these boards are no different from other forums in that regard. enjoy the arguments, and drive on.
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    zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    You stomped in here, shouting from the rooftops about all you know.

    Fleetwood and I have both forgotten more about automobiles than you'll ever know. Call me names, will ya'?
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    bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    tboner,

    How did you italicized and bold the text in the above post? I created the document in Word then cut and paste it here, but unfortunately without success; because the formatting is lost in the process.

    Please share your secrets with us less savvy computer guys.
    Thanks
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    bretfrazbretfraz Member Posts: 2,021
    http://www.htmlgoodies.com

    Read and learn, grasshopper.
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    tbonertboner Member Posts: 402
    Yeah, what he said above.

    Since I cannot actually use the < and the > I will replace them with [ and ]

    So for bold [b]Text you want bold[/b]

    And for Italics [i]Text you want italics[/i]

    But remember, don't use square brackets, but greater-than and less-than characters.

    TB
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    swschradswschrad Member Posts: 2,171
    it would be cool, but everybody will be doing it......
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    bwiabwia Member Posts: 2,913
    Thanks bretfraz for the link and thanks tboner for the tip on how to use HTML commands to bold and italicized text.
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    zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    Don't do this again, as YOU'RE the one with the attitude:

    "Zuelmyster and their pea-brain"

    Again, I've forgotten more about cars than you'll ever know.
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    pmoskalpmoskal Member Posts: 25
    Don't do what again...you must now be seeing things now in addition to forgetting so much.

    Actually you are the one with the attitude. Oh, I'm so looking up at you that you've forgotten more that I'll ever know. Did someone hit you over the head that you have forgotten so much.

    Do you have anything smart to say, ...if so can you say something smart & offer an experience in this thread on synthetics. I challenge you. You say you have so much experience, wow, but like you said you've forgotten it. It's tough to offer any viable input if you have none.
     What's your purpose in this discussion thread...I just read through it and you've offered zero input. You probably just like to enter 1 sentence entries that say that you've forgotten more than others will ever know. If you've forgotten so much then exit stage left. Oh, actually good luck to you, maybe one day you'll remember a little scrap of information that you can share with the readers.
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    8u6hfd8u6hfd Member Posts: 1,391
    Can you guys quit acting like little kids around here?
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    zueslewiszueslewis Member Posts: 2,353
    Kidding.....I'm off to my room.
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    luckylouluckylou Member Posts: 308
    I have enjoy reading this board , with so many different points of view. That is why I need your advice in synthetic oils.
    1st What is the difference between Mobil1 and Castrol Full Synthetic sold at Toyota dealerships ?
    2nd My wife and I purchased three weeks ago new 2003 Toyota Land Cruiser, we got now about 1300 miles on it but at 5000 miles it goes to the dealer for a lube job. I would like to use the Castrol Full Synthetic but I am not familiar with this brand except a few years ago Castrol was putting parafin in their oils is that still the practice ?
    I would like to hear from all you guys and your expertise.
    Thanks ahead of time.
     Lou
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    0patience0patience Member Posts: 1,712
    travelerjb,
    There are alot of statements that you make that are misleading and not totally correct.

    when it comes to the final discovery that in fact fully synthetic oil (I prefer Mobil One) as the oil to BEGIN an engines life no matter what brand is the RIGHT thing to do. I feel my having done this and proven it's viability with the last 5 cars and exceeding a quarter million miles with each car proof enough for me and may that have followed my advice.
    5 cars? That many?
    Ok, I have dealt with hundreds of vehicles, some going into the 400,000 mile range on standard off the shelf Chevron oil.

    I'll be glad to let you all know as time goes on how wonderful my new Avalon XLS runs as it so called "breaks in" LOL.
    Understand that there are many other variables to a good break-in other than the oil. Preference has been for standard (organic) oil for breakin, as it allows the rings to initially wear to your driving or common use.

    It already runs as smooth as a babys butt, and you can't tell it's even on at idle. It runs like a raped ape and still get's 31mpg so far at 80mph on the open freeway to date.
    Funny, what state has an 80 mph speed limit?
    And how exactly does a raped ape run? As far as I know, even a fast ape is comparably slow.

    I have NO doubt that by then it will have proven that using the Mobil One from the start has born out some wonderful advantages.
    It won't prove anything, other than the fact that it works for you.

    By the way I now have 1100 miles on it and the oil is still that brand new very light almost transparent honey color....can you say CLEAN?
    Or maybe it isn't doing its job??
    Part of the job of oil is to clean the contaminates out of the engine. If it doesn't suspend it in the oil, then it isn't picking it up and carrying it to the filter or pan.
    Personally, I get a little concerned if there are high miles on any oil and it shows no sign of use.

    Now, you can go on about how me or anyone else knows nothing all you want.
    For those who comment about how race cars use certain oils, that isn't a very good comparison, as those engines see high pressures and rpms.
    Unless you are running your engine at those rpms, which if you are I hope not on the streets my family drives, then there really isn't any comparison. If you want to spend the money on synthetic and additives, then there is nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with running synthetic, but I agree on the breakin part.

    To chastise or bad-mouth folks for using organic oil is wrong, plain and simple, not to mention the fact that your language needs a little cleanup.
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    tbonertboner Member Posts: 402
    Very good points. Another one about the "Oils Racers Use" they probably contain a very different set of additives formulated for track use, and probably not more than 500-750 miles.

    Motor oils for passenger cars have additive packs suited for 3K+ between oil changes.

    I'd say in some respectes, a motor oil used for racing has an easier life, as it probably isn't heated and cooled repeatedly or subject to short trip driving, etc.

    Heck, many top fuel funny cars tear down the engines after each run, so what do they do but go about 1 mile between oil changes, maybe?

    Nope, using what the racers use really isn't important to me, and probably isn't a great idea for your street driven car.

    TB
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    armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    The only full synthetic that Castrol makes is their European 0W30 oil I believe. Everything else that they label synthetic (Syntec) is a hydrocracked petroleum oil that is marketed as synthetic.

    IMO Mobil 1 for an over the counter synthetic oil is the only way to go. You can go better but for most people the shipping etc. is not worth the hassle.

    As to the racing oils, they do not have the same additive packages for normal street use and would probably result in more wear then a conventional brand's regular oil. Stay away from racing oil unless you are going to be changing it very frequently
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    pmoskalpmoskal Member Posts: 25
    Thank you 0patience...this is the type of input I'm sure we were all looking for.
    -For break-ins use standard oil...I could not agree more.
    -Synthetic is not the be-all and a end-all
    - I like your example on the 400,000 mile using Chevron oil. This is reality. I said it before and I'll say it again...use synthetic if you want to give money to the oil companies.
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    luckylouluckylou Member Posts: 308
    Thanks to Opatience , Armtdm, Tboner and Pmoskal for your advice.
    Right now the new LC is running as "smooth as a baby's butt " which whatever oil comes from the factory.
    I will ask the dealer to continue using the same oil every time the LC goes for a lube job every 5k miles.
     Thanks again .
      Lou
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    ethomas4ethomas4 Member Posts: 10
    Most of the race oils be it Synthetic Or Mineral based that are available today are actually more than adequate for street use.

    Take Valvoline VR-1 10/30 for example with over 2 thousand PPM of calcium " detergent " and around 300 parts per million of Magnesium " detergent/dispersent " and low sulphated ash formulated to boot. The problem with some of these dino race oils is they are not available in the correct viscosity for some applications.

    Now most of the blended Tri-Synthetics are a different story. Most are available from 20wt on up.Not all race oils are suitable for street use but the majority are. These are for the most part overkill but not engine life threatening.
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