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Acceptable Charge?
I received a $30 charge for "Parts Cleaner" at a Subaru dealer while getting a head gasket replaced. Is this a scam?
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If you got charged $30 for parts cleaning, then they saw you coming.
I don't know any shop that would charge that much for parts cleaning, unless they tanked a block for rebuild, but that is only for rebuilding the block.
$545 total bill
I go to the Pontiac dealer to have one bearing replaced and serpentine belt to be put back on. environmental charge/miscellanous/shop supplies: $18 I don't have the exact bill near me but they called it one of those items, but I thought that was kinda steep. $255 total bill.
Those are acceptable charges and while some shops will incorporate those charges into the labor charges, some shops itemize those charges.
Almost all shops now charge an environmental charge of $2-$5, depending on the repair.
One squirt of this, 3 towels (that get cleaned anyway). As for never-seize, we all tubes of that stuff are like Tabasco sauce, with a shelf life of years. What next? Charges for water and electricity?
Why not? There are two choices: Either bury various minor costs of doing business into vague, imprecise, all-enveloping bills (that'll be $500 to fix your whatchamacallit) or break out as many of those costs as practical, so that consumers can see the 'real' labor charge, the real parts costs, the various incidentals, and so forth. Maybe it's the CPA in me, but I'd far rather get a fully-detailed bill than a single non-specific number - or even two numbers (parts & labor). To use your examples, you're paying for part of the business's electricity and water whether or not it (and other incidentals) are separately specified. If a sound method for allocating those costs to each individual job can be arrived at, how is the consumer worse off by actually seeing the detail rather than just burying it in a (bulked-up) labor charge? If one customer doesn't want the detail, he's free to ignore it and focus only on the total. If another prefers to understand the individual component charges, they're there. I'll choose the latter every time.
jb
Plus, there's the tire fluffing service I told you about a while back.
Think about how cheesy it looks to charge a man who has just spent $1,500 at your shop for a "rag".
When I go to a repair shop, I check the hourly labor rate and I compare that to what I know about flat rates and parts prices. When I see "shop fee" all I see is a charge on top of a charge. It feels like "stacking" and that's exactly what I believe it is.
If you have to "stack" to make your profit you might as well stop [non-permissible content removed]-footing and just raise your labor rate $1 or whatever.
It's just a kind of jive, isn't it, I mean really? I charge $50 and hour, the shop down the street $60, but when you get my bill (having come to me because of my attractive pricing) I hit you with rags fees, nuts and bolts, and a bathroom cleaning charge?
Sorry to be so petulant about this but it doesn't sit right with me.
Environmental fees might be okay, especially if there is a big notice plastered on the shop wall explaining that this will be added.
I'm tempted sometimes to tell the shop "I'll bring my own rags, they are the same as yours, and you can KEEP them, too, when you're done".
When I open my own shop, I won't break things down to the penny - I hate it, in fact. If someone asks where I came up with my per hour labor rate, I'll be glad to explain it.
Then, if that doesn't work, the person should go to his family doctor or dentist and ask for an explanation of charges about a minor procedure.
I just don't get your point. Bill "A" says"
Parts: $1,000 Labor: $500 Total: $1,500
Bill "B" says" Parts: $1,000 Labor: $499 Rag: $1.00 Total: $1,500
Where's the beef?
Unless you can establish that the shop(s) which break out the detail are charging a larger BOTTOM LINE than those that lump all the minor stuff into a vague, undefined 'labor' charge, then there is no point to your point. But if that's the case (higher total prices at the shops which fully detail their charges) then customers will flock to the lower-priced shop.
So long as the total charge is the same between shop "A" and shop "B", I as the customer would far rather see the detail making up the total than see the SAME total lumped into one or two broad categories.
jb
-juice
If the repair from shop A, which buries incidental charges into labor (as you apparently prefer) has the same identical bottom line total cost as the repair from shop B, which breaks out solvents, rags, environmental charges, and other items into separate lines, then how can you possibly say that shop B is skimming? I think that is an offensive statement without any basis in fact.
jb
Now remember, I was just talking about the rag fee, okay?
Let me pose a hypothetical question to you. What if say a fancy restaurant presented you with a "napkin fee" for your meal? Do you find this charge in any way similar to this rag fee business?
Exactly the same - and my response also is exactly the same: What matters is the total cost. If fancy restaurant A charges $35 for a 6-course meal, and the fancy place across the street charges $30 plus $3 for the tablecloth plus $2 for napkins, for what is otherwise the identical meal, WHY WOULD YOU CARE? You're going to pay $35 either way.
The basis for your annoyance at the more granular breakdown of a total that is exactly the same as a single sum completely escapes me.
jb
For me, when I see a charge of a 'rag-type fee' in my bill, it comes across as the dealer trying 'nickel & dime' you. I agree with Shifty, it's all a part of the cost of doing business, and I'd rather see that line item be buried in the total bill. I know that rags and oil are going to be used, but I don't need to be reminded of what those items cost. All it does is to set the stage for an argument with the dealer. My wife's a perfect example. Whenever she sees that line 'rag-charge' line item, she's set to launch herself at the dealer. It doesn't make her happy to see that charge broken out, instead, it makes her furious. I think for most people, it's really counter-productive for the dealer to show that line item. I really do. For me (and my wife), the bottom line is all that counts. I'm really not interested in every little single line item to be shown.
Jack, the 'CPA' in you is indeed showing.
Bob
????? Does it bother your wife when the car insurance bill arrives listing $300 for liability, $100 for collision, $50 for medical, $35 for uninsured-motorist, and $15 for comprehensive, totalling $500? Would she really prefer that the insurer just sent a single line: 'Car Insurance: $500'?
When she goes to the grocery store and runs here cart through the checkout stand, would she really rather be handed a 1-inch-long receipt saying 'Groceries - $58.75' - or does she want a slip showing each item she's paying for? My wife wants the latter - but she's a CPA, too, so I guess that explains it.
Sorry...I just can't identify with the rag-charge breakdown. I will always prefer a more detailed statement. If I'm interested, I can review it. If you're not, you can skip straight to the bottom line. How it can somehow be worse to provide the detail utterly escapes me.
jb
Should the dealer subtract the amount of time the mechanic takes to go to the bathroom while working on my car, or how many paper towels he used to wash his hands, and subtract and/or add that from my labor bill? I mean, really, how detailed do you need to be??
Sorry, I don't buy your argument for the need of full disclosure of absolutely everything. Neither does my wife, or most people for that matter.
Bob
So when you go through the grocery checkout, you'd rather the 50-cent cost of the rags you're buying (paper towels) be buried - along with the rest of the 'detail' - into a single bottom-line charge? Grocery stores have ALWAYS provided every single detail of what you're purchasing, down to the last penny. I've been on this planet for 59 years, and I've never heard even one single complaint about that. Now a few repair shops begin to make small moves in that direction, and somehow it generates controversy and even criticism? Egad.
jb
If you ate in a fancy restaurant and they presented you with an additional "napkin fee" how would you FEEL about that, even IF you knew the charge was totally righteous? "Zee bill, monsieur, iz $190 for you and zee lovely lady...and...oh...zoot alors!...I am forgetting zee napkin charge for .15 cents!"
My "problem" is the complete "cheesiness" of the gesture. I feel it breeds suspicion in the customer who, regrettably, is alreadya bit too suspicious of car dealerships. E.G.===>
4 new hi performance tires = $1,000
60,000 mile service = $585
rag fee = $1.35
I just don't think business practices like this help customer relations at all. It seems awkward and unprofessional...the rags I mean.
EPA, etc might be a different matter -- not that I think EPA type charges should show, either, but at least the customer feels better about paying an EPA charge than a "rag" fee, seems to me.
Anyone share this attitude with me?
the safe thing to do when presented with the existence of lawyers is to document everything. but I do have some problems with the metal tags pop-riveted to the sidewalls of my tires saying "do not puncture"...
dictate the need for more cost/expenses on security infrastructure especially as newer & more demanding legislation is passed in these areas but in the meantime - do you think my company is going to say out of their own good graces. "mr customer, i know we had to pass on the xtra expenses incurred for security upgrades via this surcharge however now that we installed all the xtra lighting & fencing and other things and our expenses are no longer very high - i am now removing the previously instated surcharge" NOT!!! ok - i'm rambling but bottom line on the line item charges - once instated - rarely removed. oh yeah, and in reference to the grocery list - that pint of ben & jerry's i bought at the store, although showing on my list for 3.99 - that 3.99 is not broken down into old B&J's actual costs of raw materials, manufacture, packaging, lighting, rent, transportation, storage, advertising, etc etc of all the things it takes to get B&J to the shelf for me to buy - it just says 3.99 - everyone ideally is getting their cut & covering their expenses and making profit along the way. if not, then i couldn't buy that pint for 3.99. ok, i'll be quiet now - ken
Bob
If my wife found out I had a $190 dinner with a lovely lady, I'd have a much bigger problem than the extra 15-cents...
jb
A few said that they added the EPA(environmental) charge and a shop supplies charge or combined those two charges. Some had tried to itemize the shop charges for folks, but met with some staunch critisism and reverted back to the shop supplies charge.
Now they ALL say that there is a big sign in most their shops about standard charges and that they go over those standard charges with the customer before they start, which they say is the key to not having an unhappy customer.
ballistic,
So when you go through the grocery checkout, you'd rather the 50-cent cost of the rags you're buying (paper towels) be buried - along with the rest of the 'detail' - into a single bottom-line charge? Grocery stores have ALWAYS provided every single detail of what you're purchasing, down to the last penny. I've been on this planet for 59 years, and I've never heard even one single complaint about that.
That is interesting, because some years back, a certain major grocery store started charging 5 cents per large paper bag unannounced and there was far more than a single complaint on that one.
They then went to an announced 5 cents per bag, which still met with resistance and then finally to a deal where if you bring the paper bag back, they discount 5 cents per bag that they used your returned bag.
So, yes there has been the same type of thing in grocery stores and yes, it met with the same critisism.
For installed parts, the auto repair receipt includes a labor element to install the parts. Grocery store "take out" food (sandwich, barbequed chicken, salad bar, etc.) equates to installing a collection of parts but they do not itemize the labor charge to prepare the food on your grocery bill, they simply roll it into the "parts" cost. If this same grocery store scenario would carry over to the auto repair business, you would simply have a bill that says water pump $300. But, an auto repair receipt does detail the parts and labor so it really says parts: water pump $95, gasket $5, labor to install water pump: $250.
Not trying to argue but, in my opinion, an auto repair bill is already more detailed than a grocery bill. Would you prefer that the grocery store A) itemize a take out sandwich: bread (2 slices @ 20 cents each), mayo (10 cents), ham (.20 lbs @ $5.59/lb.), lettuce (2 leaves @ 5 cents each), provolone cheese (2 1 oz. slices @ 10 cents each), sandwich wrap (1 @ 5 cents), plastic gloves (2 cents), paper towel (1 cents), disinfectant (1 cents), etc, etc.or
DaveM
When they protested, he would explain that the bridge was nicely painted, so that it would look good in their photos and that this was a "big job" and the tolls really didn't cover it.
Some went nuts on him but more than a few coughed it up once they heard the "logic" of it.
nobody bit. can't see how some nutcase with a headset on for WAKO radio can get it done.