2005-2007 Toyota Avalon

analyticangel

Agent
In answer to your question......
Where do you live in Florida
Try emailing internet sales at precison toyota in tampa and let me know how you make out
They offered discounts immediately off MSRP which was better than south florida where I am
Wouod be interested in hearing prices if anyone bought an XLS with just VSC/mats

tweaker

Jeffcarp- Since your reply to me a few weeks ago, I have been researching the GPS units intensely. If you don't mind I have a couple of questions:
1. Since (I assume) this forum is not appropriate for GPS discussions, do you know a forum that deals with Q&A for GPS units?
2. I do like the features of the Garmin but am apprehensive about the speaker on the end of the power cord especially in situations where the outlet is in the console as on the Avalon. Do you have any problems with the speaker configuration on the Garmin.
Thanks!

1violinist

The information seems to be correct, although we don't know any details if there's any difference between 05 and 06. Please check out the source:

http://www.donlen.com/buildstart_toyota.asp

blackdog4

A major dealer in the Boston area has an ad in the paper today for $3000 off the MSRP on a 2005 Avalon. The car is probably loaded but the dealers are starting to deal.

rwb2

Just went to the Columbus Auto show and went directly to Toyota's display, trying to compare my 2005 LTD to the other models. The Toyota computer guy took my info and insisted on sending me another, newer, Avalon brochure which, this time had correct specs, interior colors and wood grain stains (did you know there were two and you could match them up), etc. I had just thought my wood grain happened to be darker. He said there were other glaring mistakes in the brochure. Hymmmmm. maybe I should have waited a year. The good news was there were many different brands with satellite radios and many different odd locations for the receivers, some much wrose than the side of the trunk. The Toyota salesman said that his dealership had Ziebert replace one receiver onto the top of the car , over the rear windshield. All said, the Avalon appeared to be the best value at the show, as described by my 2 critical friends, in fact, by far the best value.

rwb2

So, make us all happy, and go buy a Sonata and live happily ever after.

sixtynine

They can all show the track name and title with a little work. Get yourself a tag editor, rip the CD's to your hard drive, run the tag editor and add the title and artist tags then burn to a cd and your done. Then use the new CD.

sixtynine

I bought a Limited with every available option. Paid $40,492 + tax and title. Sticker is somewhere around $43,500. I paid a little more than I could have because I bought one in Indigo Ink Pearl and thee are only 3 with Nav systems out there, one in port and 2 scheduled to be built in early April. If I bought a Blizzard Pearl I would have been able to get it for around $39,000 with the same options.

Here's what I did (hope it helps someone.) Dealers in my area, SE Florida were only selling at MSRP.

I went to carbuyingtips.com and found a sample Excel spreadsheet to figure dealer costs, etc. Then I went to the toyota web site and used there links to visit the web site of every dealer from Key West to Valdosta, GA. I got each dealers email address then put together my offer sheet using kbb.com invoice prices. I also found out that Toyota dealers receive a 2% holdback. In addition, dealers in the southeast get an additional 1% "wholesale financial reserve." I used all the numbers to create my spread sheet and then copied and pasted it into an email which I sent to approx. 35 dealers. Responses varied from "were selling at MSRP" to "I'd like to accept your offer." Like I said I ended up paying a little more to get the color and make the wife happy.

FWIW, I have determined that the vehicle I wanted with all of the options (might not have had a couple of small ones) would MSRP for $43,452.00 and the dealers actual cost, factoring in the holdback would be $35,585.54.

buckwheat

I am confident the saftey features found on the 2005 XLS & LTD. will make their way to the 2006 XL & Touring, perhaps not as standard but surely as an option, Toyota has hinted as much. August is not a long time away for those interested in Vehicle Stability Control & Brake Assist on the XL & Touring.

Thanks for the link 1stviolinist, I have seen the link here at Edmunds before but don't remember the forum.

pmcb48

" the new Avalon is really a luxury car"

Just Me, if you need your new Avalon to be a luxury car, then more power to you. It's quibbling, but I don't think the Avalon is a luxury car, and I'll enjoy my Limited just as much when I get it knowing that. It is a luxurious car, a car that provides features and comfort found in cars costing much more. But a true "luxury" car? No. For one thing, a true luxury car would not have a trim level like the XL. Just like no crying in baseball, there are no cloth seats in a luxury car.

jll1

When I first started reading this forum I found it very informative for checking out the pros and cons of the 2005 Avalon. If one had a question about how this or that worked, you could expect to soon see several excellent responses.

Now, it seems, a preponderance of posts here discuss whether the Avalon is or isn't a luxury car, is or isn't a large category car, is or isn't better than a Kia, is or isn't quieter than a Ranger pick-up, looks better in one color or another, is or isn't faster than a TL, etc, etc, etc - or whether you got a better offer than I.

Please HOST, provide other threads for those concerns listed above. Or give us additional threads that cover (1) Navigation, (2) Laser Cruise Control, (3) Smart Key, (4) XM Satellite, (5) colors, etc, so we can easily find topics of interest to us.

I DOUBT I am the only one that feels this way.

solara00

Interesting. Can you tell us what tag editor you use?

Thanks.

smith1

"I am confident the saftey features found on the 2005 XLS & LTD. will make their way to the 2006 XL & Touring, perhaps not as standard but surely as an option, Toyota has hinted as much."

Where did you see this hint?

sixtynine

Tag&Rename. Do a google search.

You'd think since MP3's have been around now for almost 10 years that Toyota and others would all suport this format in thier CD players. Why don't they? Must be some deal with the RIAA.

katbog

I finally make the decision to go ahead and buy the Avalon XLS in Blizzard Pearl. I negotiate a deal with the Internet Sales Manager. I work out a trade-in price for my 1997 Avalon. He is going to get the car from another dealer that same day.
I am on my way to the bank and just call the salesman to confirm the final price (adjusted for trade in) and it is $1000 more than our original agreement. When I question him on this, he said that he made a mistake on the calculator and the original price he gave me was $1000 too low. He said that he would talk to his manager and see if he would honor the price.
He calls me back later and says that the car I wanted has been sold but he can get me one like it later this week ( I'm sure this will be at the higher price.).
What do y'all think? Should I keep working with this guy or talk to another dealer?
I can't believe what a hassle this has become.

analyticangel

What city are you in and do you have other options/dealers to deal with?
Did you get a buyers order or anything in writing from them ? What is a huge discount off the MSRP or could you do just as well elsewhere?
I would be suspicious of this dealer for sure and would hesitate before trusting anything they tell you . Good luck

just__me

I said almost like a Luxury car, almost approaching a Lexus. Read this link, they think so to, "NEAR LUXURY", and that is on the 2004 Avalon when you look at the engine size. What would thery say about the new 05 Avalon with a more powerful engine and overall improvements, style as well.
http://www.donlen.com/best_value_analysis.asp

just__me

jll1... If you research the posts, the Nav, Laser Cruise Control, Smart Key, XM, colors etc., have been discussed over and over again until perhaps there isn't anything more to add. The Avalon has beren discussed in great detail covering all sorts of things including the gold package and tires. If you have another question about something you haven't seen yet, fire away, and before you know it the ladies and gentelmen here will be happy to help you. After a new introduction of a car everything is hot and heavy and questions asked and gone over again and again and eventually most impoertant things are covered as they have been here.

katbog

I am in metro Atlanta. I had been talking to another dealer at the same time as this one. I have left him a message and may see if I can work out a deal with him instead. Both deals were for approximately $1500 over invoice. I think the original dealer may have made an honest mistake when he calculated it for $500 over invoice instead of $1500, and that is something I would have worked with him on. I just started to get a little suspiciouse when the car was suddenly "unavailable". I also had given him a $500 deposit in order to have it transferred to his dealership. I hope it is not too difficult to get the deposit back. Thanks for your reply.

fin

katbog: I am also in metro Atlanta. There are at least 6 Toyota dealers within 1 hour of my house. Please post the dealer names and describe exactly what happened in the forum titled "buying experience" once you buy a car. Thanks.

mikes.

If I were you, I'd bail right now. Sounds too much like the old bait & switch trick to me.

Do you have the e-mail(s) he sent showing the price? If so, you might try to stick them with those. But personally I'd be shopping somewhere else.

MikeS.

jll1

Thanks (just me) for not beating me up too badly in the woodshed.

It just seems there may be a better way. However, it appears I simply may need to input the Search This Discussion box when looking for specific areas of interest.

dan41

Even at $1500 over invoice, this would have been a good deal. However, as others have said, the way the deal happened or for that matter, didn't happen, I would be very careful about trusting this dealer/sales person. Even if you don't have anything in writing from the dealer, I would leverage their offer to find you another car and sell it to you at $1500 over invoice by calling other dealers to see if they have what you are looking for "in stock" and are willing to match the offer from dealer "x" for $1500 over invoice.

Good luck and let us know how you make out! Dan

chipmunk47

What is SO great about leather seats? They are cold in winter, hot & sticky in summer & hard to clean. I just took delivery on an XL - white with ivory interior. Beautiful car! "Luxury" in a car? That is pure nonsense. A car is a negative asset.

just__me

Your welcome. I would never beat anyone up as they share their honest feelings. Some people posting for the first time ask something such as how come no side molding etc. It's obvious they never read any of the former posts where this item was discussed over and over again. Then the people on this forum no longer reply and the individual posting doesn't get an answer to their question and wonders why. It takes take time to read all the posts but it's one way to find many of the answers that are here. Personally I think this is a great forum and it has helped answer many questions. Our host Pat has done an excellent job and a very fair one to boot. So I'd like to say to any new posters, take some time going back to January or February 1 and read the posts, if you have a question you may find your answer there.

ronn

Guys..I might get in trouble here, but there is a big difference incomparing the Lexus and Avalon to the Avalon and Kia or Sonata.
The Kia and Sonata may have come along way, but the interiors in those are cheap!!!!! The over all design is cheap looking as well. When I see either of the cars, you don't turn your heads for a second look. I knoe someone who bought a Sonata, and it has not only had problems, but the seat fabric is already beginning to wear.
While you might think a Avalon is a Buick, I DONT THINK SO!!! Lets remember that the Lexus and Avalon are the same basic car. They are made by the same company, and have quality in both. I hope other Toyota Avalon owners will back me on this one, or I will be slammed alone.

groza

Picked up our 05 XLS last week. Car has Bridgestone Turanza EL400's. Ride quality seems much harsher and "twitchier" than the 2 XLS's we test drove. The two demonstrator cars (w/Michelin's) had silky smooth rides, expansion strips & RR tracks were no problem, and the cars were very responsive. The Turanza's make the car feel more like a BMW or Maxima SE. Seems like the Turanza sidewalls are stiffer; or compound is harder. Anyone have similar experiences?

ronn

Hello everyone, I would just like to say that I
have had so many questions answered about my Avalon since I bought it. I have found this Forum to be so helpful. I do hope that we can continue to help each other here, and help others know what we have to help them make logical choices.
While opinions are opinions, the one area that I find frustrating is the continued talk about the Avalon being, or not being a Luxury car.
For those of you that are thinking about this car, this is the way I feel about it. I drove many cars before deciding on this one. I drove cars that were in the LUXURY CLASS, BMW, LEXUS, and ACURA> All of these cars were great, but none of them that I drove were any more luxurious or had a better drive than the Avalon. KEEP IN MINE, I DROVE THE ONES IN THE SAME PRICE RANGE, except I drove the RL. And yes, the RL in my opinion was not any better and had more road noise than the Avalon.
While each of these had many of the same options, and some were different, I found the Avalon to be the most quiet and smooth of the above mentioned. The Lexus was the same. We do not have a Lexus dealer were I live, so I decided on the Avalon.
After doing further research from friends that own the above, my friends with the BMW have had many problems, and find the nav. controls to be very complicated. As for my Lexus friends, one of them traded the 330 for the Avalon. He did not see any difference, and loved the new look. While Avalon is not yet mentioned as a top Luxury car,it has all the ingredients of one. Comfort, style, quiet ride, and most options that you can get on any. The most improtant factor is that of the Toyota manufacturing, which produces Toyota and Lexus, and they are known for there continued performance for being a reliable car. Luxury is all about what a person feels is Luxury to them. In my eyes, the Avalon is a Luxury car. It meets all the standards that the other Luxury cars I drove had as well. If you are buying a name only, go for the others to have the Lexus name, or BMW. . If that is not important to you, this car will be a great choice for you. I have had my Limited for two months now, no problems, no noise, and it's getting 22-24mpg in town with gas. Hope this post might help others decide.
SORRY THIS IS SO LONG
RONN

analyticangel

Groza
I read the reviews on the Turanza' and they were not as good as the Michelin's I was familiar with Michelin MXV4 as that is what I have on my Volvo and they are good for South Fla wet driving When I ordered my Avalon XLS (still waiting to hear abouyt picking it up) I specified on buyers orders I wanted the Michelins on the car and they agreed to it
Go back to your dealer and complain if you just picked up the car maybe you can get them to switch it out Drive another with Michelins and dem,and satisfaction Good luck

williamt

"What is SO great about leather seats? They are cold in winter, hot & sticky in summer & hard to clean. I just took delivery on an XL - white with ivory interior. Beautiful car! "Luxury" in a car? That is pure nonsense. A car is a negative asset."

Here's my opinion. It is simply a fact of modern marketing that people expect an expensive car to have them. I love leather--on my shoes, my belts, ladies' purses, and car seats too. My late wife and I disagreed on this, however; she insisted on leather seats despite the comfort difference. Nobody has ever argued to me that cloth seats aren't more comfortable, just like a pair of slippers is more comfortable than your fine street shoes. And Toyota uses the best upholstery cloth I have ever had. I had gray cloth seats in an '88 Camry that were just starting to show some wear on the driver's side after 188,000 miles when I sold it. My daughter's new Sienna's cloth looks identical.

Now I will confess, if Toyota didn't make them standard on the Limited I would probably choose leather seats anyway. As I said, it is expected in an expensive car (and yes, "luxury or not," $30 to $40 thousand IS expensive to most people.)

just__me

I agree with you regarding leather versus fabric. My XLS has leather, but to be honest the fabric I saw in the XL looked great and felt great. If it was offered in my XLS would I have gone for the fabric, possibly yes, maybe no. The fabric feels plusher when you sit in it and on cold days or hot when wearing shorts you don't jump. However I do feel keeping the upholstery clean it's been easier with the leather. I take care of cold and hot seats with the tint on the windows I have done, that has really made a huge difference especially when very hot here in SC, I no longer have to jump when wearing shorts upon first getting into the car thats been sitting in the sun. Tinting makes a huge difference.

ronn

Hey Just Me...I had a Camry that I had for nine years with fabric seats. Never worn etc. Starting to show a little discolor.
I like the Leather seats because when you have a suit on, it is easier to get in and out with. I use to cling to the seats on occasion when dressed up. Do you use a certain Leatehr cleaner? I have the perforated seats, so I do want to be careful. Actually, in my last car, I never put anything on them, and it stayed fine for 5 years. I guess you read my long post?

jms132

My wife and I drove the 2005 Avalon Limited on Saturday, 3/19 and signed the purchase agreement.
Driving Experience:
The Limited is impressive. The smartkey takes a little getting used to, but is a very cool feature after that. The rear seat is incredible with plenty of room (I am 5'10"). The reclining feature will make for great road trip naps for rear passengers. There is also a handy access to trunk behind the armrest. Huge legroom for someone much taller for me. The front seat is large and accommodating. The tilt/telescoping steering wheel and the seat extender are really nice. The radio flap takes a little getting used to, but I don't mind that. The fan cooled seats are the 'coolest' thing I have ever felt. Makes you want to drive with it on all the time, even though it was 35 degrees when we test drove. I did not test the laser cruise control. The rear sunshade is nice, goes down when you put car in reverse (and then stays down). On the road, the car was extremely quiet and nimble. For such a large car on the interior, it does not drive as bad as other large cars (buick etc). Smooth braking and acceleration, no real blind spots and quite windshield wiper operation are all key features that made us buy.
Purchase info:
We have to wait two weeks for delivery. The dealership I went to, Toyota of Bedford, Ohio, is selling them at full MSRP through the sales department. I went through the internet department and they knock of $500. I was able to get them to knock $800 off and then we talked trade. I got them to bump my $2k trade (value at Edmunds) to $3k.
Bought:
2005 Avalon Limited, Titanium Metallic with Graphite interior, Mats, Laser Cruise and Vehicle Stability Control.
MSRP = $35,529, my price $34,729.
I feel I received a fair price for such a hot car. They have a demo only on the lot as people (such as myself) are buying up to two months out on the delivery cycle. They even limit your test drive to 15 minutes since so many people are lining up to drive it.

ange

If you walk away you allow this salesman to do this to everyone. Try the dealer manager re honoring the original quote. This sounds like fraud.

If you have the data on paper you can make him deliver.Selling your car isn't right. I am sure he got more commission and he was looking at the dollar signs when he got an eager buyer.

This is happening all of the time. Honda did this. Now as the 05 Avalons come out very few discount. I contacted three dealers before one gave me a price below MSRP. To the others I said"thank you" and walked away---no discussion.

On the internet you can find dealers that have 20 or more Avalons.I will never go back to a dealer who is taking an advantage of these new models. They are greedy and probably in the long run are that way with all of their dealings with the customer.

The old saying car salesmen and lawyers still goes on.

ronn

Congrats on your new purchase. After getting use to the smartkey, you will love it. I find it so nice not to have to take keys in and out of pocket. JUST KEEP THAT POD WITH YOU, AND IT OPENS AND STARTS GREAT. I wish for you much enjoyment with your new Avalon. I have had mine about two months now, and I love it. Enjoy the great gas mileage as well.
RONN

just__me

Many years ago while visiting a factory, the Vice President was proud to point out that the product just manufactured carried a well known advertised name, cost so many dollars and would retail for so many dollars. He then proceeded to show me the same exact product put in a different box as a private label for a large retailer and was so happy to point out that it cost 4 times less and therefore would be sold for a lot less at retail. From that day forward I began to see certain products with well known labels selling in a department store and the same item under a different private label or non advertised product in a discounter selling for a lot less even though it was the same item. The point is, as consumers we are some times blind sided by advertising and status. What is a luxury car? Yes perhaps a Mercedes top of the line is a luxury car, certainly a Bentley or Rolls and maybe an 8 Audi and 7 hundred series BMW and top of the line 430 Lexus (Acura RL, maybe). So where does the Avalon fall among this inspired group of automobiles. For me after riding in some of them (not the rolls or Bentley) I can't see the spending thousands more for subtle differences. The leather might be finer and other tactile touches of material, but IMHO, this in your face finer material doesn't deserve the 15 grand or more some one is willing to pay for it because the car has a status name plate. But that is my choice, different strokes for different folks, its what makes the world go around. What defines luxury for me is how the car handles and the comfort of the seats and room for my passengers etc., and in this sense the Avalon XLS is luxury the way I see it and the best quality car I have ever owned. Years ago I drove my bosses Mercedes for a week when he left town. I felt conspicuous on the highway and therefore uncomfortable driving a car that people were staring at. It was then that I decided I don't want to drive a status label, I don't want to be noticed. But that is me, everyone has the right to how they feel and how they handle their ego,and there isn't anything wrong with that.. One last thing. Have any of you ever gone into a model home that was decorated to the hilt in a plush neighborhood? Then you went to another area, saw a sparsely decorated home, or void of any decoration or furniture, and you weren't impressed. Yet it's the same home built the same way minus the corning counter tops etc. The first home was marketed and sold, the second one wasn't marketed and sold for a lot less, but to different buyers. The moral is there is something for everyone, and we believe what we want to or are led to believe. IMHO, the Avalon is a worthy quality car, we can nit pick all we want even with a rolls, but in the end nit picking minor glitches doesn't mount to much. I'd rather be a smart buyer and save the money and in that sense I believe the Avalon is at a very fair price. Hope I didn't wear out my welcome.

just__me

Hi Ron.. I use "Blue Magic" leather conditioner cleaner, it's inexpesive. It works for me, I put in on the cloth then wipe it in, let it dry and wipe it off. Yes I did read your long post, and now I posted a long one, .

wesg

Just placed an order for a LTD, Silver Pine Mica (green), Vehicle Stability, floor mats. The dealer told me something about a "factory preference order". Any experience on how long it will take to receive this car? Thanks...Wes

sjohnson11

Kirkendoll, I live in Kansas too, which dealer gave you $500 over invoice? tia
Steve

havalongavalon

"Picked up our 05 XLS last week. Car has Bridgestone Turanza EL400's. Ride quality seems much harsher and "twitchier" than the 2 XLS's we test drove. The two demonstrator cars (w/Michelins) had silky smooth rides,.."

Groza, there may indeed by differences in ride quality between these tires; but you may also want to check that the tire pressures were correctly set in your vehicle.

After we picked up our XLS (w/Michelins) on March 1st, the ride quality on familiar roads & bumps felt harsh, harsher than our 1997 Camry that we had traded in. After a while I thought of checking the tire pressure. I found that all four tires were overinflated at 40-42 lb (cold). I adjusted them to 32 and this cured the problem, the ride has been excellent since then.

I took the car to Toyota service to confirm that I had set the pressure correctly and the service manager acknowledged this oversight in the car's preparation. He told me that tire pressures are set very high in all vehicles when they arrive -- around 60 lb. So, the pressure must be correctly reduced in every car before delivery.

Of course, overinflated tires may affect not only ride comfort, but safe handling as well.

norskey

Absolutely not. The Avalon appears to be an excellent car, but it is NOT a Lexus. For starters, The Avalon is the most "American Toyota ever" according to Toyota - designed, engineered and built is the USA. Most Lexus, as I understand it, are designed, engineered and built in Japan by mostly different teams. The new engine in the Avalon is not used in any Lexus models. This is not detracting from the Avalon, just pointing out some major differences with the Lexus line. Nels

mwalker

I have driven the new Avalon 3 times in the last two weeks. I love it!!! I just need to select a color and let my toyota dealer know!! I have chosen the limited model, mainly for its seats and nav system. This forum has been very helpful. I have only one concern with the new Avalon. The center console near the nav controls really rubs against my knee. I have a 97 camry now and the dash/consle design does not come out this far.
THANKS,
MARK

ronharv

In your shoes I wouldn't go near this guy again, even if he offered the original deal you expected. I try not to do anything to encourage duplicitous people, let alone become a participant in my own exploitation.

ronharv

I prefer cloth to "leather" also (and the Avalon's seats are "leather trimmed," which suggests more vinyl than leather). Actually, if given an equal-cost option between leather or cloth, I'd still take the cloth. Which means it's a matter of taste.

ronharv

Tires can make a huge difference in ride quality, handling, and noise. I've got four new Goodyear Assurance tires on my '03 Avalon (mainly because of superb user reviews at tirerack.com) and they're terrific, far better than the Michelin Harmonys and the prior Continentals. (The Michelin Harmonys are now on my Taurus, where any additional noise will never be noticed.)

jcu1963

"As you might already be aware all interior colors do not come with all exterior colors as has been posted here. The below link to the Avalons colors will give you a breakdown on match-ups.

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2005/avalon/color.html"

Given the numerous color combinations for both interior and exterior, can you also indicate which wood, i.e., dark or light, on the interior, goes with which interior and exterior colors?

Thanks.

havalongavalon

HOST: let me know if this entry belongs under some other, tire-related topic. Thanks.

The last time I had to replace tires on my 97 Camry I was ready to buy Michelins again. The salesman asked me if I had heard about Franken tires (a Japanese brand only recently marketed in NA). He brought out a recent CR issue where Frankens were rated #1, especially for aggressive tread design for performance in rain (main weather here), whereas Michelins were rated OK but fairly far down the list. Not only that, a set of Frankens sold for almost 30% less than the Michelins. I bought the Franken tires and was really pleased and impressed with their performance. I will be looking to replace our Honda Pilot tires with Frankens if possible, and I hope Franken will also make them in the Avalon size when the original tires need replacing.

groza

"The statement about having a full size spare makes no sense since in any car I have owned with a space saver spare, the spare tire well is large enough to carry a full size tire."

Badgerfan: I checked dimensions of spare tire wells for several cars. Most have depths of 6-to-7 inches. Diameters of the doughnuts themselves are all about 23 inches.

The wheel well on the XLS, with 215/55/17 tires, is 9-1/2 inches deep; OD of the Avalon tires is 26-1/2 inches.

As I said in my original post, one reason the Avalon's trunk is smaller than other sedans is because of the full-sized spare. The Avalon trunk could be 15% larger because of the spare tire. But it's not, so we have to evaluate the tradeoff of smaller trunk vs full-size spare.

groza

havalongavalon: Thanks for the reply. Tire pressures on the Turanza's are all 32 psi. Dealer, who is being cooperative, may offer to swap out Bridgestone's w/ Michelin's from inventoried, unsold XLS's.

mackabee

I don't get it. So you are saying the new Avalon's trunk is smaller because it has a full size spare? What about the previous generation Avalon? That one had a full size spare also. Explain to me the difference in trunk size due to full size spares.
:O(

Mackabee