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Hybrid Honda Accord



  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    If one looks at the interior of the other (losers) cars... Some other (retarded) cars are simply "metal boxes" ...


    There's no need to put other people down just because they don't own a HAH, or a Honda. You can enjoy your own car without belittling others.
  • cablackcablack Posts: 45
    There's no need to put other people down just because they don't own a HAH, or a Honda. You can enjoy your own car without belittling others.


    Amen to that. And not only that, but belittling others makes me even less inclined to listen to your arguments.
  • Today I spoke with American Honda Motor Company's customer relations person about my HAH's continuing problem of FM radio interference (static) when the IMA kicks in (blue lights on the dash). To recap: My local dealer had tried to figure out the cause of this problem for about 2 weeks, with the help of the Honda tech support people, but were unable to figure it out, and handed the problem over to customer relations.


    So today I got to speak with the customer relations person. He informed me that they were able to reproduce the problem ... in *all* other HAHs they tested. Every one of them. Honda has not identified a fix for this problem. The customer relations person said that the engineers have determined that "It is a characteristic of the car." The customer relations person said he is not able to offer me a buy-back, nor offer me a different vehicle, and that he has been advised that The Lemon Law does not apply here. He could not guarantee me any kind of fix would be forthcoming, although he did say that the Honda technical folks are looking into the problem. Possibly they will issue some kind of fix, but possibly they will not.


    When I asked him whether the Honda sales folks would now be disclosing this FM radio problem to potential HAH buyers, he said that it would be up to the sales people to determine that.


    Well. This does not sound like the Honda Motor Company I know. I am stunned at this cop-out. It appears to me that they have a design flaw that they didn't catch during their testing. But because it doesn't affect safety or driveability, maybe it just isn't a priority to fix it. I don't understand how this can possibly be acceptable to Honda, not to mention consumers. I would like to be optimistic that they'll come up with a fix, but my conversation with customer relations left me feeling otherwise.


    If anyone cares, for me the problem is most obvious when tuned to a classical or talk radio station. Again, the problem is only FM radio, not XM or AM.
  • It looks like a few of the electronic modules are radiating in broadbands which include the FM frequencies. It's tough to fix without redesigning the modules.


    With high level of DC power being converted to mechanical energy, there are losses that are radiated in various frequencies. Something may be harmful to human. You never know.


    Ear cancer has been linked to mobile phones' very low radiating energy. Leukemia has also been linked to people living around down-converting power stations.


    Please keep us posted on how this problem is solved.
  • Once you tap into the ECU pinout, I believe your warranty is voided.
  • >>> that "It is a characteristic of the car."

    B.S!!. It's reasonable to expect a radio to work without static.


    >>> and that he has been advised that The Lemon Law does not apply here

    That, of course, is just their opinion. Personally I'd be making phone calls to various consumer/state/legal agencies at this point


    >>> He informed me that they were able to reproduce the problem ... in *all* other HAHs they tested.

    hmmm - are *all* the other HAH owners on this forum listening to just XM ? - anyone?


    I'm starting to wonder if getting a HAH, this early in the product lifecycle, is such a good idea.
  • georgepburdell,


    I'm glad you brought this up again. I'll have some free time tomorrow and I will definatly check this out. As I mentioned in previous post, I listen to XM exclusively.


    You have peeked my interest to try my FM.
  • vietviet Posts: 847
    Sorry to Backy, Cablack and you guys. I did not mean to belittle anybody/ any car. It was just my quick joke at the wrong time.


    For the FM interference I will check on it. I have listened to my favorite FM Channel 99.7 oldie music without any problem. The voice commands to the Audio must be clear and correct. The Fleet Manager kept reminding me to read the manual.
  • azhahazhah Posts: 82
    Not the case. You may not modify the ECU or alter input in any way but "tapping" an output signal has no impact on the vehicles opperation or warranty. It's very common for after market electronics to tap into Tach and VSS among other things.


    As for the "FM Effect" I listen mostyly to 93.3 FM here in Phoenix and have not noticed this issue. Can you explain what exactly you hear? Is it just static or is there some pattern? I have noticed that if I place my cell phone in the tray beneath the radio/nav system that I will get this cyclical buzz-tone every few minutes but it goes away when I place the phone elsewhere.


     I don't see how this would rise to the level where "lemon law" would come into effect. They may simply have to replace or better shield the radio or maybe even the ant. lead. I do hope it works out for you one way or another!


    PS: I don't know of ANY newer cars that are "loosers" or "retarded." I think that was just a poor choice of words (looking for a laugh perhaps)
  • >>> "tapping" an output signal has no impact on the vehicles opperation

    From a purly electrical engineering point of view, "tapping" an output will cause additional drain and capacitance, so *could* take the signal out of spec causing a downstream component to get incorrect input. I guess it depends how you tap the signals and what sort of equipment it goes into.


    I have no idea what the warranty implications are.
  • azhahazhah Posts: 82
    Well, at least in the case of Tach and VSS the only thing recieving the signal is the dash instruments. All other readings required from this signal are internal to the ecu. These outputs, since for instrumentation use only, would not be an issue unless the change your instruments calibration. The latter not being very likely. It's not reading a voltage but a wave form.
  • I ran my HAH for 20 miles at all levels of acceleration working the gas pedal for the (blue) assist bars while listening to FM radio including classical and talk. I could NOT discern any audible sounds while in the blue bar area.


    My curiousity grows with your statement that it only occurs on 2 stations (claaical and talk). This seems very strange to me. I'm no tech but that does not make sense to me. I would think it would happen on all or none on your receive.


    Any radio techs out there.
  • vietviet Posts: 847
    I have listened to several FM channels. No problems so far.
  • I can hear the interference on every other FM station I try, but it isn't as noticeable on pop music or rock as it is on classical or talk, where there are more periods of silence. The classical and talk stations are at different parts of the FM radio spectrum.


    The static I hear sounds like someone is crinkling a plastic grocery bag.


    I hear the static always when the blue lights come on. I also hear the static sometimes when I don't see blue lights, including the time just before I see blue lights. But I don't hear it any when I see green (charging).


    When I had asked the customer relations person whether they tested this on NAVI and non-NAVI models, he said yes, although I wonder if he was sure about that. Mine is non-NAVI. Does yours have NAVI?
  • vietviet Posts: 847
    Mine gets the Navi. I will check on those FM radio carefully tomorrow.
  • Mine is non-navi. I still think it is a problem with the radio unit itself.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    What are the frequencies of the two stations you're referring to? Also, have you tried their adjacent channels?
  • One more observation, from this morning's commute: For the first time, I continued listening to 91.5 FM for my entire drive, and when I got to the 50 mph stretch of road (most of my commute is 30 mph), I saw the electric assist come on (blue lights) but did NOT hear the static. This was the first time I had seen blue lights without static, but also the first time I had listened to FM while driving 50 mph.


  • Just thinking out loud here....


    Maybe the frequency of electrical noise simply moves out of the radio band range at higher speeds.


    If the IMA motor is producing electrical noise when it's producing power (blue light), it would be logical that the frequency of the noise is related to the speed of the rotor, which in turn would be related to engine RPM (not road speed as the IMA is before the transmission)


    But even though the road speed was 30 mph vs 50mph, I guessing the engine RPM was similar ???


    >>> Hmmm.

    Agreed :)
  • OK - here's another thought:


    >>> The static I hear sounds like someone is crinkling a plastic grocery bag.


    I think I'm right in saying that the (VCM related) Noise Cancelation feature uses the same speakers as the radio. Maybe what you're hearing is a variation on the Noise cancelation problems another person has mentioned on this forum, particularly related to the VCM transitioning from 3 to 6 cylinders ( which if you're not doing highway cruising, would roughly match when the IMA kicks in)


    Possible ?
  • anon1anon1 Posts: 1
    Hello folks. We picked up an early HAH, and I was wondering what others' experiences were, so I started looking around here and thought I'd share my experiences.


    We started a local waiting list in July, placed deposit for MSRP, paid MSRP about the end of the first week of December when the first car arrived (which we had more-or-less ordered). We now have over 2400 miles of mixed driving: more city/less highway driving around Seattle (cold, but not a lot of freezing). I started keeping track of all mileage at odometer mile 89.


    The numbers:

    Overall: 2400 miles, 24.1 MPG.


    Worst interval mileages: about 17MPG for two different short 80 mile fillups when cold/short trips/ mostly city.


    Best interval mileage: 35.5 MPG for 127 mile trip of basically all highway, on cruise control 65-70 MPH most of the time. For one 10 mile section of this trip, on very flat roads, going 45-50, the computer listed just over 38MPG, but I was trying to be as light on the gas as I could possibly be.


    2nd best interval mileage: 31.6MPG for 225 mile trip over a snowy mountain pass and back (two legs/two different days), part of the way 25-30 mph with cable chains.


    Some thoughts:

    The car has two drivers, split 50/50? My wife consistently gets 3-5MPG less than me, although I drive faster. I am definitely aware of the dashboard IMA charge/assist/economy lights, and tend to drive this car (consciously at first, less consciously now) with the goal of conserving fuel based on the feedback from the lights; my wife does nothing of the sort.


    I think I saw in the owners manual that when the defrost is on, the A/C is on. This makes sense in order to defrost optimally, so it wouldn't surpise me. But when you turn on the defrost, the A/C On indicator does NOT turn on. When you switch back to regular airflow (not defrost), the A/C indicator is blank, and it may remain on still (???), because you can then push the A/C button and get an A/C Off sign, and then toggle between A/C On an A/C Off. So, when it's blank it confuses me. In any case, we find ourselves driving around with the defrost on a lot of the time because of the cold damp weather this time of year here, and I think we're using the A/C much more than one would expect, despite trying to remember to turn it off. A/C=worse mileage.


    On cruise control on the highway, it doesn't do too bad. The large engine has a truly large capacity to burn fuel and sink your mileage in an instant. I have a great time driving it, I really like the power and acceleration, it is smooth and quiet. But hitting the gas too often simply sucks fuel like there was no tomorrow. This is completely to be expected for a heavy mid-sized car with 255HP. There is no (reasonable/insert your adjective here) way around the physics of moving that much mass that quickly and saving fuel in the process.


    I see the car as the V6 Accord that I was tempted to buy for a couple of years, but with the added bonus of better mileage than a V6 Accord deserves, and slightly better performance. It is not an economy car; it is a relatively powerful car with slightly better mileage than expected.


    If you tend to have a lead foot and love accelerating from stop lights, up hills, onto freeway onramps, and passing cars on the highway, then your mileage will be terrible. If you only do that when the occasional urge strikes :-) then you won't be too far off these numbers, I think.


    My personal opinion is that whatever the primary drive system and fuel type of the future will be (gas/diesel/fuel cell/electric/whatever?) most cars will have a hybrid system built along with the primary system. Recapturing and reusing energy with a hybrid just makes too much sense, and can be used with most any primary fuel/engine source, for both economy and performance purposes. As the technology matures and proves itself, the price comes down, and it becomes widespread, it will be no big deal at all. Think of disc brakes, fuel injection, overhead cams, and whatever else....


    Good day to all....
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Posts: 2,363
    Thanks for a thoughtful and balanced summary. Sounds like you bought the car for the right reasons, and it's always good to hear a real owner's experiences. Please report back as the miles pile up.
  • fxtoolfxtool Posts: 20
    Thanks for the post! I second your opinion on the mileage. I am still trying to drive in the eco zone, but with a 100% horsepower boost from my last car, it is quite difficult.


    Sidebar: Is anyone driving with the climate control on auto like the manual suggests? That seems crazy but I am slightly concerned with mold growth in the a/c in the summer.


    Anon1- Don't stay too anonymous, keep us posted.


  • >> Maybe what you're hearing is a variation on the Noise cancelation problems another person has mentioned on this forum, particularly related to the VCM transitioning from 3 to 6 cylinders ( which if you're not doing highway cruising, would roughly match when the IMA kicks in)


    I just don't know. There is static when the VCM starts up.


    I spoke again to the Honda dealer service guy who had done all the work on my car, and told him about the 50 mph stretch with electric assist but no static. He was puzzled too, since his test drives included plenty of 50 mph driving and plenty of static.
  • Very similar to my experience though my MPG is only 22 average. Overall a pretty nice car to drive. What part of the country are you in? I suspect that temperature plays a huge part in the mileage received.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    I finally got to drive the HAH today, but it wasn't easy. I stopped into a local Honda dealer and asked a sales rep if they had any HAHes in stock (yes, just one) and could I drive it (no). "Oh, it's already sold," I offered. No, he said, they just didn't let anyone drive it. Hmmm, I opined, that would make it difficult for people to see if they like the car. He agreed. Could I as least LOOK at the car? Yes, and he went off to find a key. Fifteen minutes of searching later, he found a key and we went to the back lot to find it. It was sitting in a row of Accord coupes--silver without nav. He started it up and pulled it out. "C'mon," he said in a conspiratorial tone. And I slid into the driver's seat. He directed me to drive through the lot of the neighboring dealership, so we would not be seen. I felt like we were doing something illegal, which heightened the excitement of the test drive.


    He told me we'd need to keep the drive short so the miles wouldn't be noticed. [Now, at this point I thought this was all an act, but he was either a great actor or was being sincere.] We hopped on the freeway for a little less than two miles, then went on some suburban streets. Total loop was 3.9 miles, about 60/40 city/highway. Highway was at 65 (the limit), and city was between 30-45.


    Oh yes, the car. This is a very luxurious car. Extremely comfortable driver's seat. Very quiet, even under acceleration (totally silent at idle of course). Great light show from the gauges. Very powerful and smooth pick-up--and I only pressed it about 6/10ths, since it was new. I can imagine what it would do if I had floored it. Handling was not razor-sharp but excellent for a family sedan--just a hint of body lean on two sharp turns I did. The electronic steering was super-smooth, with almost no road feel, yet it didn't feel disconnected. Ride was generally well-behaved, but I noticed that small bumps like tar strips were felt rather abruptly, more so than on some smaller cars like the Cobalt and Mazda3. The switchgear had the typical Honda precision and quality feel. I didn't task the brakes and they felt normal--nothing odd about the operation or feel. Same thing for VCM. If it were not for the ECO light, I never would have known when the car dropped to 3 cylinders and switched back to 6.


    The auto-stop was another matter. When coming to a complete stop, the car suddenly became totally silent. No noise or vibration accompanied the engine shutdown. But the instant I lifted my foot off the brake, the engine started up with a slight shudder. Which means the engine stopped and restarted a few times as I made my way through a left turn behind a line of cars. I'd rather that the car run on electric power only at low speeds, to avoid all the engine restarts on turns and when driving in stop-and-go traffic.


    How about fuel economy? My drive was not optimal for fuel economy: cold start in cold weather, weaving through a parking lot, and driving just 3.9 miles with 3 stop lights and several stop signs along the way. The computer said I got 25.0 mph for the loop. That's what I estimate my 4-cylinder compact car would do under similar conditions. I accelerated briskly onto the freeway, but I tried to use a light foot on the city streets, and the ECO light was lit for much of the city segment. Based on this short drive, I think the fuel economy of the HAH will depend greatly on how it's driven. Drive it like a hot rod, and it will return hot-rod fuel economy. But ease up on the gas, and I think you'll have a good chance to exceed the EPA ratings once the engine is broken in and you figure out how best to keep the car cruising on 3 cylinders.


    Did I like the car? Heck yes. If I were in the market for a powerful, mid-sized, near-luxury sedan, I'd definitely consider the HAH. But "powerful", "mid-sized", and "near-luxury" aren't high on my criteria for cars.
  • vietviet Posts: 847
    I filled up the second gas tank for my HAH today. Moat driving were in cities/ some on highways (with congested traffic):


    MPG on dash: 28.9

    Manually calculated MPG (with some margin of error, of course): 28.0


    For the fist few times I saw my battery got charge 100%.


    Today, I stopped by at the Toyota dealership where I had got heavily ripped off in 1993 for $500 to have my leaking cylinder sealed with...silicone. Here is some interesting info.:


    New Prius 2005, package #3: Asking price $27,900 (with $3999.99 dealer mark up) + TTL. No Navi. 110 HP.


    New HAH 2005 with Navi. :$32,505 + TTL, 255 HP.


    Some other guys/gals bought their HAHs in Plano, Texas at MSRP with some minor accessories (Mudd guard, etc.) were given and installed by the dealerships.


    Backy, do you like the HAH but will not consider buying one? The HAH handles sharp turns real well. I usually drive at 2000 RPM or a little bit more (at 60 - 70 MPH) so I constantly get pretty good MPG. The acceleration is really superb. The HAH is truely a sport car "camouflaged" under a sedan body.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    I wouldn't consider buying one only because I'm not in the market for this kind of car right now. I drove it to be better educated as to how the latest in hybrid technology from Honda performs, and in case I win the lottery tomorrow and want to upgrade from one of my compact cars. Or maybe my stock options will take off and I'll suddenly have all this disposable cash burning a hole in my pocket. :-)


    The comparison to the Prius is interesting. Some people are paying close to $30k for a new, loaded Prius. The HAH is much more car for that money. However, the Prius can return overall fuel economy in the mid-40s, maybe higher--about 50% over what the HAH should achieve, and has AT-PZEV emissions. The Prius also has out-there styling that says, "Look at me, I'm green!" So I suspect that the people willing to pay $30k for a Prius would not be interested in buying a HAH for the same money.
  • rlkrlk Posts: 14
    As for the A/c causing worse mileage, I haven't noticed much of a difference on the tanks where I ran the a/c versus non/ac. The difference was actually less than 1 mpg. I'm unsure of the defroster/ac issue though. So far most of my tanks have been between 28-30mpg mixed driving. The outside temp and of course the way people are driving their cars seems to have a bigger influence.


    On another forum though the was mention of an power over boost on the brakes which I have felt only a time or two. This happened after I started up the car and was pulling out of the parking lot. The car had not even reached 10mph and when I pressed on the brakes the car slammed to a stop like no other. For the next time or two that I touched the brakes the car was super touchy. What could the issue be and has anyone else experienced this???
  • Strange. I've never heard any kind of interference on my Insight? I guess Honda redesigned the electronic DC/DC modules.


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