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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    It's my understanding that the high sulphur content in our diesel fuel is the deal-breaker in California. Can the Bluetec technology overcome this?

    Correct, but sulphur content will be dropping real soon . Currently US and Canadian regulations are imposing new sulphur content rules. Lower diesel sulphur content combined with Blutec technology is what will make Californian MB diesel sales possible.

    link title
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    This is great news. The fact that this will happen later THIS year is likely to have a pretty significant impact, don't you think?

    The impact of Blutec diesel on MB sales will be dependent on diesel prices. Unfortunately the trend so far is higher price hikes for diesel versus gasoline fuel, thanks to a healthy global economy that is bound together by diesel commercial transit.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    that's just about the same difference here in the states. $1k more for the diesel Benz. Just wish I didn't have to spend $50k to get a nice diesel sedan.

    Yeah, I don't know how other posters here get away with talking about the huge price premium for diesel.... In addition to the previously mentioned cars, the Jetta is about the same price gasoline or diesel.

    With trucks, however, there is still a difference.... A Chevy/GMC diesel will run you about $5k-$6k more. Of course, people aren't buying a diesel truck for the fuel efficiency or anything. They're all about the torque for towing.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Here in Western Canada, MSRP of the E320 CDI is $75,450 (cdn. dollars) vs $74,300 for the E350 (2WD)- a surprisingly low differential for diesel power. AND the CDI has 369 lbs-ft of torque which is more even than the E500 at 339 !

    It sells the same price here in Toronto. I just noticed the Cdn $ pricing of a E320CDI is at a 44% premium over the $US MSRP. That is pretty steep cosidering our exhange rate(US$/Cdn$) is only 15 percent.
    It would be advantageous as a Canadian to buy the MB CDI in a US dealership.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Warthog ---- Take a look at your own words:

    Good communication implies the observance of some conventions, such as spelling

    If you wish to add emphasis, do so with good prose rather than typeface.

    This all sounds more like a set of "instructions" for all of us. And, a bit critical, and perhaps directed at me personally as well.

    I assume you mean well, but I may need to check with the HOST on this. My spelling and typeface use has been fine, IMO, and I do not believe I have violated any convention or any terms of any agreement. And, I don't believe I have seen violations by other participants that would warrant the "communications police". I trust that the HOST will best determine if the spelling and typeface use has somehow been inappropriate.

    Your suggestion that I have not been polite is not the case. I have been nothing other than polite and professional.

    This whole critical and personal line of discussion, IMO, is much worse than any overuse of capital letters or mis-spelled words.

    I certainly agree that good communication skills are important, but this is going too far, getting way too critical, ruining the fun and pleasure, and getting off track. Sorry, but I just do not want to post further on it.
  • Have you ever piloted a big boat (not a ship, not a row boat, but a big boat) -- big enough to have two bedrooms a full stand-up shower and a flying bridge? A boat that during the off season sells here in River City for around $300,000. . . .

    Have you noticed that to pilot the thing you turn the rudder (the wheel?) long before the boat actually does much in response?

    Here we were in the US a few years ago with crummy diesel fuel and we've got the Europeans on the one hand with ever more potent, powerful and luxurious diesel cars; on the other hand you've got the Japanese coming out with kinda weird looking but finally practical "electric" hybrid cars.

    If you are Ford or GM whattya gonna do considering the time from thought to showroom is a couple of years away? The Europeans are ahead on the one hand, but partially attributed to their fuel, the Japanese are ahead on the other hand with a technology that it just might be possible to bring to market without too much fuss.

    So, perhaps if you're Bill Ford, you go for the hybrid -- then the fuel looks like its gonna clean up, then some wise guy starts analyzing the cost of batteries some 6, 7 or 8 years down the road. Then instead of using hybrids strictly for economy, the movement seems to shift to using them for performance.

    Turn the rudder -- and wait.

    Now, the Europeans (recheck the Audi A8L video and note that while the test did drive in a way you and I wouldn't typically consider, that this land yacht seems quite capable of massive power and speed in a giant lux car -- at over 30MPG) have gotten their diesels to be quite fashionable AND quite the hot rod. The Japanese for pity's sake are a cummin' with some high zoot lux and LPS cars with hybrid technology.

    Here in the US, we're trying in some respects to build econo diesels when the market seems to be, again, moving to such things as V10 Touaregs and super lux A8's and Mercs aplenty.

    Turn the rudder again.

    Meanwhile the fuel gets cleaner, the batteries get ever so slightly better and keep on keepin' on and we're talking about more [economy] hybrids by 2010!

    I could just scream.

    We have (several -- many? US cars) some ugly cars in an era when style seems to continue to reign supreme; we have 4 speed automatics when 5,6,7 and DSG,CVT,SMG and "tronics" rule. We offer NOT FSI engines but soldier on with throttle body fuel injection and so on.

    We turn the ship's wheel again -- and again we wait.

    The European and Japanese mfgrs have features, functions, contents, transmissions, engines and "all that jazz" in the pipeline -- apparently for years.

    Nice as it is, we bring out the Lucerne.

    Oh the ignominy.

    I can deal with ignominy.

    You probably can too.

    Can we deal with cars, US cars, that by 2010 will be caught up with European and Japanese cars circa 2004?

    Add to this, the ultra high costs for health insurance and all the other stuff piling on the US mfgrs -- and the aforementioned cars we produce seem to lack the expected pulchritude in a market that seems to value style equal to or greater than substance.

    The LPS crowd is dominated by European and Japanese cars because their executives turned the wheel of their "big boats" a long time ago.

    No wonder we're :sick: .
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    the aforementioned cars we produce seem to lack the expected pulchritude in a market that seems to value style equal to or greater than substance.

    It's called "all sizzle . . . and no steak!" :)

  • I contend that the sizzle sells the steak and the taste keeps 'em commin' back.

    For the most part, we're not quite getting either one right, although I think the taste actually has improved -- now we need some sizzle and we need some new sizzle NOT just retro sizzle.

    We're doomed. :surprise:
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    you crack me up.

    You think maybe some of the manufacturers will NEVER learn? NEVER get it right?

    It's the "survival of the fittest" in this business, and the "unfit" vehicles won't make it.

    Public perception is also part of the challenge. That can also turn like an oil tanker, unfortunately. It can often take a long time to replace lost confidence. But it begins with GENUINE reasons to reconsider a manufacturer, once they've had a history of problems. It starts with GREAT products, then the marketing takes it from there. Nothing worse than having to sell garbage . . . ultimately the stink gets out . . . and people remember.

  • I actually think a roll up, consolidation, whatever, might not be too far fetched.

    Three car mfgs like we have now, we may not have room for.

    The Chrysler 300C seems like a great attempt, quite a few of the Cadillacs at least are no longer an embarrassment, too. Ford has a couple of "Rembrandt's" in the attic too.

    Let's get these folks married.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I actually think a roll up, consolidation, whatever, might not be too far fetched.

    Whoa! easy on the irrational exuberance ;)

    Y'know, I can see it now: Paul Revere, with his head poking out of the sunroof of that Chrysler 300C, yelling: "The diesels are coming! . . . the diesels are coming!"

    Just maybe there will be a hero for the domestics in this modern history, and someone will listen and be prepared. Regardless, those diesels ARE coming . . . from Germany . . . maybe later on from Japan . . . we'll see.

    But one thing is certain . . . The attack is imminent.

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    watch those caps, dude. ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    OUCH! :blush:
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    With apologies to those who have tried to keep on topic, this discussion is taking a hiatus.

    The diesel and hybrid discussion simply does not belong here. And we are not here to continue to debate the etiquette of posting habits. I've addressed the former already, the latter is something that need not happen, but if it does, it certainly shouldn't become a running debate.

    We'll take a rest now. Everyone go take a nap. I'll wake you up when it's time for a snack. :)
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    There is some milk and cookies over there on the table. If you promise to be good, you may have some. :)

    Welcome back. Let's try again.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Cookie Monster says, "Yum yum . . . me love cookies. Thank you so much." :blush:

    Is there an official future replacement for the BMW 3.0 liter inline 6 cylinder engine? BMW has done miracles with their inlines, but is a V6 in the cards?
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    There is some milk and cookies over there on the table. If you promise to be good, you may have some.

    Are there any ol’ goats like me who remember Froggy from the Andy Devine Show in the 50s?

    “I’ll be good, I will, I will… heh, heh, heh.”

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I seriously doubt that BMW would even consider replacing their vaunted inlines for a traditional V6. The M3 has already shown what the engine can do at 3.2L. I think they'll just make the next one larger. BMW would be more likely to resort to forced induction than to abandon the inline.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Yeah. Andy ("Jingles") Devine's show had the old Buster Brown shoe commercial.

    I agree with Lexusguy. The inline 6 IS BMW. That is one sweet engine.
    They may refine it, but I don't anticipate them changing to a traditional engine.
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    If you have the length, an in-line 6 is inherently balanced...capable of high rpm and minimal vibration. In contrast, a v6 is much harder to balance - it requires extra parts or much larger harmonic balancers.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Is there an official future replacement for the BMW 3.0 liter inline 6 cylinder engine? BMW has done miracles with their inlines, but is a V6 in the cards?"

    I'm thinking that given that there is a brand spankin' new from the ground up redesigned I6 in the E90 and E60, the suggestion that BMW might move to an inherently unbalanced V6 anytime soon (if ever) is highly, highly unlikely. True V6s can be smoothed out with the application of high speed balance shafts (a misnomer if there ever was one as "balance shafts" are themselves highly unbalanced), but at their very best they'll never be as smooth as a completely unadorned I6. Why? Simple, because the I6 engine configuration holds all mechanical inertial forces in natural balance at all times (the H6 and V12 configurations do too). All a "balanced" V6 can do is approximate a balanced condition by spinning unbalanced stuff at high speeds to try and cancel out the natural imbalance of that engine configuration. The problem here is that the balancing devices employed are installed in such a way as to balance the average of the imbalanced forces, and as such, are typically only perfectly balanced at one specific RPM.

    When engines are tested for mechanical "balance", there are four different measurements typically performed (I say typical because Radial back in the WWII era were measured and balanced to as far as the sixth order), and they are as follows:

    - Free forces of the first order (i.e. once per rotation)
    - Free forces of the second order
    - Free movements of the first order (i.e. twice per rotation)
    - Free movements of the second order

    Naturally balance I6, H6 and V12 engines score a perfect zero in all four of the above categories, however, an even firing V6 (natural firing V6s are even worse) suffers from significant Free movement forces of both the first and second order.

    Hmmm, wordy enough; suffice to say, BMW has staked its place in the automotive world as the last manufacturer of I6 engines in the world. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

    Best Regards,
  • jjacurajjacura Posts: 808
    I go away for a couple months...and return to...familiar names and cookies on the table. Makes a man feel comfortable. Hey... Did anyone attend the Chicago Auto show? What else is new?
  • You mean as in "Pluck your magic twanger Froggie!! BOING!!BOING!! Hi ya kids, hiya hiya!!
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    A couple of things, actually. It looks as if Acura is abandoning touch screens for center stacks in the same vein as the RL's. Here's what the inside of the RDX looks like. - 35

    Another interesting development, and one I would definitely like to hear Mark's thoughts on is that "Audi will terminate their free maintenance on all 2007 models.", according to Autospies anyway.
  • The latest on the Audi is that indeed they may do away with the free maintenance for new vehicles, but will allow return buyers to extend their free maintenance as a type of loyalty payback...
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    The BMW 545 rocks with its superb 4.4 liter 325-hp 32-valve V-8 engine.
    However, after also driving the inline 6 for 12 years, I have to say when the power factor is taken out, I do prefer the inline 6- a little smoother, believe it or not.

    On another note, while you were watching the AD show with its hand-puppet, Froggie,
    I was tuned into Jon Nagy's Learn To Draw show.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "I have to say when the power factor is taken out, I do prefer the inline 6- a little smoother, believe it or not."

    I believe it! Dude, you must have one seriously sensitive Butt Dyno because according to the "Internal-combustion engines" chapter of my handy-dandy Automotive Handbook, V8 engines suffer from a very small Free Movement of the First Order. I'm impressed. ;-)

    Best Regards,
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    I could not have said it better myself!

    The BMW i6 is a World Wonder in the automotive industry.
  • I agree about the BMW i6. You would think some of the other companies would catch on.
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