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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The GS430 eschews all of the 300's tried and true mechanical bits for wires and computer chips. There are a couple of cars that have gotten electric steering and brakes to "feel" right, but the GS430 is not one of those cars, and the variable-ratio effect just makes things worse. That was the wrong thing to copy from the 5.
  • bartalk3bartalk3 Posts: 692
    Sales of the GS hybrid are minuscule. I think they plan to produce 2,000 for an entire year. My local Lexus dealer's quota for the YEAR is 8. The one they had sitting on the lot stickers for $60,000 and has an EPA of 25/28.
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Well that's true-airline and car seats seem to be designed for an "average-sized" person. Lucky him!
    I have the comfort seats in my 5-series but as for legroom, my 6'2" frame can use more seat travel.
    The only vehicle I have tried that really had generous legroom that satisfied me is the BMW X5.
    Not only did I find the GS cabin confining, but my right leg kept hitting the console.
    Maybe in my next life, I will be born regular-sized, hopefully-not in a king-sized world! :surprise:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Well, if it makes you feel any better, my 545's brakes are almost as bad as the 2006 GS 430's. There is no way you can modulate the brakes to provide a smooth stop, no matter what the speed. Always a little "jerk" at the end.

    I was in NYC recently and rented a Hyundai Sonata at the airport, and I couldn't believe how smooth the brakes were-sort of how BMW brakes used to be-smooth and powerful.
    Drove the 330i last summer and like the 545, found I couldn't stop the car smoothly.

    When they have something good, why can't they leave it alone?

    Next time around, if BMW's brakes are still "jerky", I will move on to a different vehicle which is why this Fall, I will be doing some early research on the new LS.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Sales of the GS hybrid are minuscule. I think they plan to produce 2,000 for an entire year. My local Lexus dealer's quota for the YEAR is 8. The one they had sitting on the lot stickers for $60,000 and has an EPA of 25/28.

    Even if they sell 2,000 a year, I really don't think its going to give them much, if any extra overall sales of GS. I think what the GS450h is going to do is cannibalize sales of the 430. I don't really see a shopper who was otherwise going to buy an E550 or 550i picking Lexus instead because of the 450h.

    I understand that they made the car to say "Look what HSD can do", but I think the execution is flawed (more so than the regular GS), and I still believe not making it AWD was a huge mistake.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    My opinion about Bose has not changed.

    I think about the best in car sound system I have ever heard is in the Infiniti M's if equipped with the technology package.

    Audis system has never been, by me, given a grade less than a B+.

    The virtual inability to find any high end, non mass market retailers who represent Bose products coupled with a 7+ year tour of duty as a program director and music director for FM rock radio stations (where we regularly were disappointed by Bose products to the extent that we chanted "no highs no lows, must be Bose") has pretty much left me with the opinion that Bose makes good to excellent systems for cars. Period.

    I have not heard the new love of Audi's life, from B&O, but for the price they want for this system it better be great and make coffee too, for that matter.

    My Audi A6 has about the second (or third) best system I have ever had the pleasure to have in a car. The Infiniti M, I am "convinced" would have been better.

    When asked, I usually rate the Audi Bose Premium system as an A-.

    I have enjoyed Bose noise cancelling headphones on transoceanic flights.

    I assume the Bose clock radios that I have enjoyed in several upscale hotels are also among the best.

    I can only comment that the apparent marketing and retailing of Bose products seems aimed squarely at the mid priced (and then discounted) market; and, subsequently, my FM mantra is still remembered -- perhaps unfairly.

    BOSE in car systems are generally a clue that the audio in the car will be no less than good and possibly excellent.

    BOSE is a successful company and I do respect what they have done and the aural pleasure they have provided me in several of my cars over the past years.

    The Q7 was quite nice, indeed in this respect.

    I can't see myself paying for the B&O system especially having heard the Infiniti M system.

  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I assume the Bose clock radios that I have enjoyed in several upscale hotels are also among the best.

    Nope. Listen to the Henry Kloss designed Cambridge S-Works radio. Better in every way (and of course much cheaper) than the Wave Radios.

    I agree with you that Bose car division generally does decent work, and has done a few amazing systems, such as the Infiniti's, which is a worthy competitor to Lexus\Mark Levinson.

    However, I think the home division's products are simply an affront to all things audiophilia, the very definition of snake-oil. Priced like Bowers & Wilkins, sounds like Radioshack. Your mantra is also quite correct. The "Lifestyle" systems don't go above 13khz (no highs), or below 50hz (no lows), and are made out of plastic and Wal-mart fiberboard (must be Bose). They are also completely MIA from around 200hz-300hz, so no real mids, either.

    If you do go to a mass-market retailer that carries Bose products, ever notice that the Bose stuff is always in its own room or section, where it can't be compared to the Polks and JBLs? This is because Bose is well aware that a direct comparison would make people start to wonder why those $140 JBL bookshelf speakers sound so much better.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    This is your post #38. Isn't it interesting how some time later the 5 series is the leader of the pack even though a short while ago, it placed nearly dead last in a comparo?

    "The RL will probably win the 6-cylinder contest on price/power/performance."

    Did the RL fulfill it's mission?
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,044
    Calling the Paul Harvey icon a "clock radio" is only one of several reasons You are considered entertaining by (I'm assuming here) several of us.
  • pearlpearl Posts: 336
    Well, hpowders, not all BMWs are like yours. My 97 528, 5 spd, with 144K on the clock, has superb brakes without a hint of "jerkiness". What is amazing to me is that I have been shopping new LPS cars and have yet to find one that I "want" more than my ten year old bimmer. Doesn't have all the latest techo stuff, but it is QUIETER, handles and rides better than than the GS, M, RL, gets better gas mileage, accelerates just about as quickly, and frankly, looks a darn sight better too. I am planning to have a couple of minor items fixed at the next service and will probably just keep it. My wife has a Garmin Nav for her car, so will use that for trips. If Bangle had not done such a disastrous job on the looks of the E60, then it would have been my next car. Given what's out there, I'll keep my E39.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Why not trade up to something like an '02 or '03 540i?
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Whew, that post was from a long time ago! I don't think it has lived up to that standard.

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    This seems to be the trend now with LPS and ELPS brakes-electronic systems which one can't modulate smoothly-not only my 545, but also the GS 430 and the 330i-same thing.

    Drove a Hyundai Sonata the other day and the brakes were smooth as silk-the way BMW brakes used to be.
    But you can't blame Bangle for the brakes.
    Someone on the 5 series forum blamed Bangle because his wife is 5' tall and can't find a comfortable driving position. As if Bangle designed the seat travel.
    Gimmee a break!
  • bfeng7bfeng7 Posts: 47

    I'm impressed. Many would have taken the bait...

    It would make my day if people would see Bose as a company with multiple priorities. Their home products started out by trying to be the best performing audio in the world (and I think the 901 was close to that in the 1960's). In the 1980's, their focus shifted to making systems with very high WAF ... which is an admirable goal ... but also a shift in priorities. In the 1990's they started doing the Wave systems, again a shift in product tradeoff (convenience against performance).

    With automobiles, we don't get to design the package ... and this has kept the focus of my division more consistent over the last 20 years. We just, "want to make the best sound in a car." The hurdles to achieving this desire are complex beyond most people's imaginations, but I'm personally satisfied with the way the M45 turned out (the 14spkr 5.1 system).

    Anyway, as our products become dated in the marketplace (like the current Infiniti G35 system), they become less competitive ... so to say a Bose system doesn't sound that great relative to other choices in the marketplace is not so much a sign that we can't do better ... but a sign that once something goes into production it stops evolving for the better. The current G35 was designed many years ago. But, it's not fair for me to expect a layperson to acknowledge this because they can't ask Bose to customize a car to include the newest and best technology when they shop at the dealer.

    Anyway, I appreciate the nice words, and take some of your criticisms more seriously than you might guess.
    I hope you have a chance to listen to the new G35 coming this fall.

    John Feng
  • bfeng7bfeng7 Posts: 47

    I would like to present a slightly different picture:

    "all things audiophilia" The home entertainment division at Bose produces products with a very highly refined tradeoff between audio performance, convenience, and small packaging. If you remove any of these constraints, it's not a fair comparison.

    "snake-oil" I assure you that the operation of all Bose products are based on very sound, and even to a degree conservative science. You may not like the design tradeoffs and perhaps the marketing messages don't seem quite right ... but the acoustic performance is actually decent. The Lifestyle bass boxes have plenty of output below 40Hz, when properly setup in a room, and I can't think of a single lifestyle type cube speaker which isn't capable of adequate output >13kHz. The entire range for string bass and bass guitar are covered. I will stick my neck out to say that the majority of Americans over the age of 35 can't hear above 15kHz with enough sensitivity to make it important. But all the lifestyle systems can make plenty of energy above that if needed. It maybe that you don't perfer the 'tonal balance' targeted by the automatic equalization (...our car systems have bass and treble controls ... and sometimes they work as advertised).

    "Priced like Bowers & Wilkins" Ahem, a Meridian system with DSP room equalization costs at least $20k for a 5.1 system, and then you have to add the DVD player, control unit and amp. A B&W 5.1 system consisting of 805's and a ASW sub will come in at over $6k, plus source/control/amp.
    The point of Bose Lifestyle is this (among other things). The main 5 speakers have to be REALLY small. Compare the sound of a Bose cube to anything else of that internal volume. The cubes are decent. Ditto the bass box.
    It isn't meant to be an "audiophile" system, and it isn't priced that way either. As to whether you can do better piecing something together yourself ... let me just say you can make different tradeoffs to satisfy different priorities.

    John Feng

    P.S. If you get a chance. Compare a Mark Levinson 6.5" car audio speaker to a 6.5" JBL part out of a Prius. Then go and listen again. Don't let the looks bias what you hear.
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,860
    Thank You!! As I am older than thirty five, I fit the criteria....When I was younger I still couldn`t hear that much difference between really expensive systems, and he cheaper (dollar wise) systems...Mind you now , that isn`t to say I couldn`t tell the difference just that imo it wasn`t worth it....Tony
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    "all things audiophilia" The home entertainment division at Bose produces products with a very highly refined tradeoff between audio performance, convenience, and small packaging. If you remove any of these constraints, it's not a fair comparison.

    Perhaps its not fair to judge the Lifestyles against much larger speakers, I will give you that. However, compared against speakers of similar size, and similar convenience such as the multitude of HTIB systems out there, the Bose systems still fail miserably. To me, it sounds like the "audio performance" part of the tradeoff got left on the cutting room floor.

    but the acoustic performance is actually decent. The Lifestyle bass boxes have plenty of output below 40Hz, when properly setup in a room, and I can't think of a single lifestyle type cube speaker which isn't capable of adequate output >13kHz

    I would argue that the acoustic performance is wholly inadequate. From S&V: "280 Hz to 13.3k Hz at ±10.5 dB" for the satellites. Thats completely incompetent in two critical ways. First: a +\- 10.5db allowance is simply rediculous. A properly designed speaker should be able to perform within +\- 3db from top to bottom, no matter its size. Second, according to S&V, its already rolling off heavily at 13khz. Thats 7,000hz of the audible spectrum that's simply gone, on speaker system that can cost $4000!

    As for the "bass module", S&V measured "46Hz to 202Hz at ±2.3 dB" Well, at least it isnt all over the map in terms of output. Still, I would rank this performance with the worst subs on the market. There are major problems here. Deep bass is nowhere to be found. (Though, no one in their right mind would expect 5.5" paper drivers to be capable of deep bass).

    The biggest problem though is that frequencies well over 80hz are coming out of a subwoofer. Thats well into the midbass\midrange area, frequencies that are very localizable, and should be coming out of the main satellites, not the subwoofer. And you've still got the 202hz-280hz frequency chasm where neither the Sub nor the satellites are doing the proper job. If Bose home products really are about "sound, conservative science" and not "10,000% profit margin: the Bose way" why does Bose refuse to publish any actual scientific specifications for their products?

    "Priced like Bowers & Wilkins" Ahem, a Meridian system with DSP room equalization costs at least $20k for a 5.1 system, and then you have to add the DVD player, control unit and amp. A B&W 5.1 system consisting of 805's and a ASW sub will come in at over $6k, plus source/control/amp.

    One could spend $500K on a 5.1 Wilson Audio system. Thats not what I was talking about. There are plenty of systems from companies similar to the Acoustimass\Lifestyle speakers in size and price (including B&W) but night and day superior in performance. Take Mirage's Nanosat, for example. One could easily put together a system based around Nanosat speakers and Pioneer, Denon, or Yamaha electronics for WELL under the Lifestyle 48's rediculous $4,000 price tag. The Nanosats are similar in size (4"x5"x4") to the Bose cubes, but Mirage engineers have managed to squeeze in such modern inventions as silk\titanium tweeters and advanced titanium deposite midranges, allowing for a 110hz-20khz +\-3db response. Pair em with a real sub like the Omni S8, and you've got a serious home theater.

    It isn't meant to be an "audiophile" system (I would certainly hope not) ,and it isn't priced that way either.

    I would argue that a speaker system that can price up to $4,000 is very much in the "audiophile" range. This isnt a $100 Aiwa boombox we're talking about here. Bose is the AOL of audio. Blanket marketing and lots of hype, terrible performance, very little substance, and massive price gouging.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    Bose in-home systems seem to be discounted -- off of list price. Perhaps this still makes them over priced, I am not really as well equipped to argue the point as I sense you are. I do read, monthly, S&V and HomeTheater AND Widescreen Review -- and I often read the PerfectVision and some more or less obscure publications.

    I am wondering, however, what your take is on the Bose in-car systems?

    I've not heard the Lexus top of the line system, nor the Audi B&O system -- the Infiniti M's system is very impressive, however; and, the Audi A6 "premium" system (circa 2005, i.e.) is also impressive, but as it was unable to play DVD-Audio and lacked the individual in-seat speakers of the M with the technology package, it slid to #2. Perhaps the B&O system from the Audi 8's will be offered in the 6's -- perhaps the Infiniti M system will be adapted by Audi and others.

    Just wondering your take on the CAR systems -- I am pretty much in agreement with your observations about the home systems, other than the price mention. Bose systems seem to be relatively low in price, based on my experience.

    Other than my cars, however, I don't own any Bose products. I ultimately "settled" on Sony noise cancelling headphones and a wonderful Nakamichi "clock radio."

    As I recall, however, these were not exactly price decisions -- my A/V retailer of choice simply does NOT sell Bose products and I typically do not buy speakers from Best Buy or Circuit City.
  • bfeng7bfeng7 Posts: 47
    Is there a place we should take this audio discussion (as it's getting far from an M45 discussion).

    Cubes: I have to see how S&V did their testing. The only review I know is one done by Professor Polhmann. He didn't say the sound was high-performance, and he did mention the treble was a little soft (which a LOT of people like in contrast to the hyper-realistic clarity of many high-end systems). He did not point out any major flaws with the sound. I'm sure that if the 200-300Hz range was missing, he would have noticed and complained about it.

    I did find a review that talked about a 10.5dB variation from the cubes (
    I don't know anything about Mr. Shea, but I don't recall him being in Mr. Pohlmann's league. Perhaps you are getting your facts confused.

    As with many things in life, testing properly is very difficult. If you test in a room, the room response will dominate the midrange. I've have mega-buck midrange units and cheap ones in the same room, and the room response dominates. Did they check power response? Did they new on-axis at 1meter? Did they do nearfield measurements? What kind of smoothing did they do (1/3 oct, 1/2 oct, etc.)? Point me to Mr. Shea's testing procedures and I'll be happy to evaluate the accuracy of his data.

    By the way, if you take most really good systems and check in-room power response, you'll find that none of them are dead nuts flat. My Aerials, my big ribbons, all the best speakers I've owned have a room power response that gives a little emphasis in the bass and has a nice smooth taper at the top end. I recently had the pleasure of characterizing a pair of 801N's in a purpose built playback room (purpose built starting with the exterior walls). The frequency response from 100 to 15khz covered a range of 7dB. Plus treble took a dive above 15kHz (the room was designed by a renoun acoustician, and my measurement mics cost nearly $3k so I believe the data). One nice thing about this setup? The highs didn't get piercing and fatiguing after listening at live levels for a while. That high end harshness is something I get from a lot of B&W's new "N" series speakers. Overall, this system sounded even better than my big Aerials.

    Finally, working for Bose, we have LS35's and 48's in a number of places, and when properly setup and calibrated, I haven't seen any major frequency response anomalies. I'm not saying that AdaptIQ can correct for anything. It cannot. If you have a big bass null in your room, or lateral standing waves ... there will be big and audibly annoying suckouts and peaks (zero times any gain is zero, right?).

    Now, I'm not saying the cubes are the best speaker from 200Hz to 20kHz. FAR from it. There were compromises made to get them very small (far under a liter total for the jewel cubes). I haven't seen many home theater speakers that size. If we doubled or tripped the volume (which doesn't result in a much bigger WxLxD), the performance equation would be totally different.

    I'm surprised the sub only played to 42Hz. Put in the right spot, an LS38 system should play to 35Hz and lower.

    Size: the LS28/48 jewel cubes are far smaller tha 4"x5"x4".
    Also, don't get hung up on exotic cone materials. Rather, if you focus on the mechanical parameters of an idea cone material and you'll find paper is pretty damn good in nearly all respects. Think about internal loss, stiffness versus weight, weight versus thickness. And you do know that a lot of the non-linearities in a speaker are not due to the cone but the other parts (magnetics, spider, etc.)?

    AOL: You and I might not like AOL (I'd never use it). But they must be offering something a lot of people want (for the price they are willing to pay). Advertising only gets you initial says. Satisfaction gets you repeat business and customer loyalty.


    John Feng

    P.S. Scientific specs? Specs are like statistics (Damn ones, that is). Specs, as used in the audio industry, are pretty much useless and can be spun by any OEM to mean pretty much anything. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If you like the sound of a Bose car or home system, then it's good for you ... period. If I shower you with impressive specs, it might bias you to think a system performs better (or worse) than it really does.
  • bfeng7bfeng7 Posts: 47
    I've lived with a number of B&O systems, and my brother has his entire apartment outfitted with exclusively B&O gear (all current models) ... down to his TV and phones. My $600 mini-monitors in the garage sound more accurate to me. B&O is, first and foremost, a style and exclusivity company. One could argue that Bose is also all style, but at least we pioneer things like efficient Class-D power supplies and amps, DSP correction for vehicle cabin acoustics, 5.1 surround in cars, etc.

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,044
    Interesting discussion, John.

    I was a sales engineer for Bruel & Kjaer Canada in the '70's, so it's nice to have someone who thoroughly understands the measurement of sound weigh in on this stuff.

    Hang in there.

    As far as being on-topic goes, my observation is that the actual functioning of the cars discussed here is so nearly flawless as to leave the board deader than dead unless people pursue cell phone/bluetooth issues, the audio system, navigation and (the always entertaining) menu-driven controls.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    I dont think I've ever heard a Bose car stereo that I would call below average. Most are pretty good, and a select few can challenge the best of the best in OEM designs, such as the Q45 back in '02, and now the M. I certainly have nothing against Bose in the car arena, they obviously do what they can within the constraints of what the manufacturer wants. You generally don't get a choice as to who makes the sound system in your car, but if I could, I would definitely choose Bose over the Alpine systems that Jaguar is unfortunately stuck with, thanks to the Ford connection. Alpine is mediocre, at best.

    I've got a pair of big Sony studio cans that I use for traveling. No active noise cancelling, but they keep most noise out without being uncomfortably tight, like the Sennheiser 280s. At my desk, I've got a new pair of Beyerdynamic DT880s, paired with a Headroom MAX that I bought on Audiogon. The Beyers are fantastic, the perfect middle ground between the sleepy Sennheiser HD600s and punch-in-the-face agressive Grado SR325s.
  • rich545rich545 Posts: 386
    I'll tell you one thing, the Bose system in my Cayenne rocks. One of the best car systems my untrained ear has ever heard. 350 watts and tons of bass. Hell, the sub is so large that they chose not to have a spare tire just to accomodate it!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    I have auditioned B&O systems (home systems) several times over the years. Their style is their outstanding trait. Their sound and function are good or better -- but I just can't say I ever thought their price matched their sound.

    They loooook maaaaavelous though.

    Why Audi chose B&O can probably be chalked up to "style" and exclusivity -- the sound is certainly not mediocre, but I do question $7,000 especially knowing how great the M35's technology package sound system sounds.

    From a "big bucks" but more mainstream point of view, perhaps they could have gone with Linn. But, then again, I thought they were after exclusivity and I think someone already has tapped Linn for their in-car systems, I just can't remember who.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    From a "big bucks" but more mainstream point of view, perhaps they could have gone with Linn. But, then again, I thought they were after exclusivity and I think someone already has tapped Linn for their in-car systems, I just can't remember who.

    Aston Martin. I'm curious as to why Audi, Mercedes, or BMW haven't gone to one of Germany's own ultra high-end audio companies, rather than one of the Harman brands or Bose. A car stereo based on MBL Radialstrahler technology would be pretty awesome.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Posts: 5,343
    . . .dutifully posted by our fellow LPS fans and owners, one would think Acura and Audi (vying as they do for the "honor" of selling the fewest number of cars each month) will soon be driven out of business.

    According to Audi (press release):

    "In the first five months of the year, Audi handed over 383,600 vehicles to customers worldwide – 11.5 per cent more than last year (344,137). In May, Audi was able to achieve a growth rate of 9.2 per cent compared with the same month last year, selling 79,200 vehicles. This adds up to the best May and the best five months in the history of the company."

    I have read from time to time that Audi and BMW (and Mercedes) models often compete so fiercely that BMW will outsell Audi for a time, then Audi turns the tables and tops BMW.

    Here, however three 5's for every A6 seem to be the way things go.

    From the point of view of one of the flag bearers for Audi (or so one would think sometimes, eh?), it is good to know that Audi -- overall -- continues to beat its own best sales records.

    Whenever these cars succeed, I submit the market succeeds -- the near LPS cars being the beneficiaries of some kool performance and technology features.

    Is the RL (and Acura overall) well? I assume Acura is fine -- the success of the RL notwithstanding.

  • bfeng7bfeng7 Posts: 47
    Why Linn? Why not Meridian, or Snell, Spendor, KEF, B&W, Totem, ProAc, and so forth? What I'm trying to say is that it is not an easy thing to become an automotive audio supplier.

    First of all, 99.9% of the OEM premium sound market (call it the Tier 1 supplier market) has TREMENDOUS constraints on price. Premium audio == profit for the OEM, and in these tough times they want to milk all the profit they can from the optional items. I can't tell you how much OEM's spend on audio systems, but I don't think you could buy a single of the cheapest ldspkr from B&W for what OEM's want to spend on the 10 channel amp and 19 assorted speakers in the car.

    Also, don't forget that the car imposes very difficult environmental conditions on the parts. Can you imagine a loudspeaker being required to hold back pressurized soap water for 16 hours, and still function well afterwards? How about baking the the electronics at 85 deg C while the amp plays full blast (wonderful for the life of capacitors).

    Perhaps what companies like Linn or Spendor offer of the most value is their sense of what sounds good/bad.

    P.S. Infiniti is a wonderful brand. They seem willing to spend what it takes to put in quality components ... when they target a feature (be it audio or engine or brakes). That's why I might very well replace my 540i with a G35 6MT sport (the new one).
  • bfeng7bfeng7 Posts: 47
    I beleive the biggest threat to BMW and Audi, other than DC, is Infiniti. Lexus seems to have decided NOT to pursue the hard core sports sedan enthusiasts. THeir business plan is working fine (luxury then sport) and I don't see why they would be motivated to change.

    What with BMW and Audi's horrible reliability, Infiniti could poach a lot of business if they get refinement kicked up a bit and their styling a bit more classy (they seem to have plenty of sport).

    John Feng
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "What with BMW and Audi's horrible reliability..."

    Ummm, I'm thinking that you are quoting ancient history here. A couple more problems than Infiniti? Maybe. Horrible reliability? Not even close. Yeesh!

    Best Regards,
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,860
    You sure know your audio stuff, but you are wrong on Audi and bmw reliability Tony
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