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Luxury Performance Sedans



  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    2,971 GS sales? I wonder what caused such a large jump?
  • 5-Series 4,445
    E-Class 3,955
    GS 2,971
    M 2,120
    RL 1,134

    Still waiting for Audi and Caddy...

    Bad month for Audi A6:

    This August = 1,208; Last August = 1509 (-20.0%)
  • Reuters compiled a list of the 20 top-selling vehicles in the U.S. through August of 2006 as reported by the automakers.

    Total sales of the top 20 vehicles fell 7.5 percent or -329,212 units to 4,072,044.

    Following is a list of the top-20 selling vehicles, ranked by total units.

    RANK VEHICLE 2006 2005 (2005 RANK) %CHANGE
    1 Ford F-Series pickup 545,963 625,047 (1) -12.7
    2 Chevy Silverado-C/K pickup 434,937 522,227 (2) -16.7
    3 Toyota Camry 302,636 299,507 (3) +1.0
    4 Toyota Corolla/Matrix 274,074 235,980 (6) +16.1
    5 Honda Accord 250,663 258,514 (5) -3.0
    6 Dodge Ram Pickup 250,144 283,310 (4) -11.7
    7 Honda Civic 225,212 203,673 (7) +10.6
    8 Chevrolet Impala 197,304 160,579 (13) +22.9
    9 Chevrolet Cobalt 163,343 148,831 (15) +9.8
    10 Dodge Caravan 151,858 166,917 (12) -9.0
    11 Nissan Altima 154,909 178,703 (9) -13.3
    12 GMC Sierra pickup 142,129 171,139 (10) -17.0
    13 Ford Taurus 125,185 147,770 (16) -15.3
    14 Ford Explorer 127,569 183,999 (8) -30.7
    15 Ford Focus 126,670 143,360 (17) -11.6
    16 Chevrolet Malibu 122,345 139,735 (18) -12.4
    17 Honda Odyssey 125,588 121,292 (20) +3.5
    18 Chevrolet TrailBlazer 118,718 169,552 (11) -30.0
    19 Ford Econoline 119,829 120,939 (21) -0.9
    20 Ford Escape 112,968 120,182 (22) -6.0
  • M35/45

    August 2005 = 2,623

    August 2006 = 2,120

    Percentage change = -22.2
  • This August = 4,445

    Last August = 4,359
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The Explorer and Trailblazer are doomed. I cant think of a better time to roll out the "300 of SUVs" (riiiight). Amazing how Toyota cars continue to dominate the market even when they are near EOL, like the Corolla. I dont know how Toyota does that.
  • TYD

    5-Series 35,754
    E-Class 29,154
    GS 18,539
    M 17,541
    STS 17,262 EST
    A6 12,244
    RL 8,066

    Caddy sold 2,658 in August but did not report sales for July so I had to use their monthly average for the reported months.

    Since April BMW has only outsold MB 21655 to 20495
  • Here's a comparison of sales for the April-August period for 2005 vs 2006

    E-Class 22,064 (2005) vs 20,495 (2006) (-7.1%)
    5-Series 21,063 vs 21,655 (+2.8%)
    STS 17,465 vs 11,637 (-33.3%)
    GS 16,365 vs 12,029 (-26.5%)
    M 12,316 vs 11,020 (-10.5%)
    A6 7,506 vs 7,760 (+3.4%)
    RL 7,735 vs 5,464 (-29.4%)

    Used April 2005 as a starting point because that's when the new GS and M really had their first monthly inventories in place. They both came out in March but gave the dealers a month to get an adequate supply.

    What do these numbers mean? Beats me - I'll let others spin them.

    Happy Labor Day
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    If I were a BMW or Audi exec. I'd be pleased. If I worked at Cadillac or Acura, not so much. I'm not sure what Cadillac's initial expectations were (Acura expected 20K cars a year and thats just not happening), but the STS isn't selling well.
  • Are these US or Global figures?
  • Yep, Audi of America must be pretty pleased AGAIN:

    "AUBURN HILLS, Mich.,1 Sept 2006 - Audi of America, Inc. today reported August 2006 sales of 7,115 units, an increase of three percent compared to year ago sales. Through the first eight months of 2006, Audi dealers have sold 54,575 vehicles, an increase of 5.4 percent over the same period a year ago, and an annual record pace for the brand."

  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    First, the BMW 5 Series continues to trounce sales of the "made to out-perform" Infiniti M35/45.

    Sales of the 5 Series in the USA were up 2% over the last year through August 31, 2006 and sales of the M were down 19%.

    Now in the latest issue of MotorTrend, the Infiniti G35S came in second to the BMW 330i.

    Problem is second was last place in this comparo!

    Looks like Infiniti's dream to "outperform" BMW is nothing more than sheer fantasy. :shades:
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    Actually closer to down 19%. :)
  • hpowdershpowders Posts: 4,301
    One year August 2005 through August 2006:

    MB E Class: -21.1% BMW 5 Series: +2%

    YTD through August 31, 2006:

    MB E Class: -5.8% BMW 5 Series: +11.3%
  • I just got off of a college football bulletin board. Lot of taunting between teams. You know, "we're better because we won this, etc. etc...

    I just realized coming back to this one, there seems to be alot of that going on here too. Frankly, it's kind of funny.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Looks like Infiniti's dream to "outperform" BMW is nothing more than sheer fantasy.

    Which is more important, sales numbers or comparison tests results? The M won the majority of the comparison tests against the 5. The new G has lost one comparison test thusfar, we'll see what happens with the rest. In any case, the G35 will continue to trounce the 330i in sales.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Oh c'mon Lexusguy the M won comparison tests against a old and dated 225 Hp 5 series. The M45 won a comparison test against a BMW530i (unfair advantage for Infiniti in terms of displacement.

    These tests mean nothing today with the new and improved engines that currently exists in the 5 series.

    Independent of sales the 5 series and 3 series remain benchmark vehicles as they have for decades.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Don't forget that the G35 is considerably less expensive than a comparably equipped 3-series. BMW rocks, but the G is a helluva value. The comparison results are also pretty close. It's like comparing chocolate ice cream vs. vanilla ice cream.

    Speaking of college football, watch out for my Oregon Ducks! (But our uniforms are the ugliest if you're over 21 years of age. If you're young, "they are phat" according to my kids.) Here's hoping Notre Dame goes down in flames.

    Carry on with the trash talking.
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    Sales figures are only one way to look at what is "best". Personal preferences, whether founded in fact or perception play a huge part in that decision. Look at all of the people that perpetually buy Kellogs Corn Flakes verses another brand...just because they're happy with it...same with the person that buys a Chevy because their parents had one and their grandfather bought one. People tend to overlook the bad points and amplify the good points once they've made up their mind that something is the "best" Everyone' needs are different, whether because of price, physical size, passenger space, trunk space, towing capacity, etc. A big component of what people will buy is also based on how convenient a dealer is and what the "snob" factor is. This may be based in fact, or not, but again, it depends on each individual's needs and desires.

    To blatantly state that one thing is the best and that everyone else is dumb if they don't agree with you, especially based on numbers (BMW has been around as a brand for a long time and has a much bigger dealer network to have built up brand loyalty). It took Toyota a long time to become a leading seller. Things like Ferrari, Maserati, etc. may arguably be better performers, but will never reach the sales levels of BMW. Can you say that BMW is absolutely the best under just sales volume?

    Your rationalization that Infinit won those comparisons because they used vehicles with larger, more powerful engines, and compared it to a "lesser" vehicle doesn't hold if you factor in the somewhat relevant price per performance factor. Match up a Porche with BMW, and you might not win, either price be damned. So, I find it somewhat childish to always hear one thing must be best because it sells more. I'd rather keep it to why one is better, not just blatant blather that is MUST be better because it sells more.

    Many people will buy a brand to make a statement, whether it is a good product or not. Not saying that BMW is a bad product by any means, just that it is not "Best" for all for many reasons. Let's focus on trying to ferret out WHY one is perceived better, not the childish MINE IS BETTER THAN YOURS because more people buy it.

    That argument may very well have flip-flopped in another 25-years once the Infiniti brand has been around a bit longer. Look at where Japan was 50-years ago, little industry left (not to discount what happened in Germany, but the level of consumer goods started at significantly different levels) and look at it now...
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Sales figures are only one way to look at what is "best". Personal preferences

    James that is exactly what I wrote on my last post. Sales does not indicate much in terms of a car's excellence.

    If you read my last post I wrote:

    Independent of sales BMW 5 and 3 series remains benchmark vehicles.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Independent of sales BMW 5 and 3 series remains benchmark vehicles.

    Perhaps, but you must admit that having the G and IS nipping at the 3's heels only benefits the 3 series buyer. Would there even be a 335i if not for the G35 and IS350 having 306hp and being able to smoke the 330i in a drag race?
  • james27james27 Posts: 433
    Competition is good, and drives the threshold of what is considered good, necessary, and desireable. It is up to the user to decide if he needs state of the art, and some of the advances that come available. SUrvival of the fittest usually makes thing better in the end for all levels of the food chain.
  • Why such a large drop off in sales across the board, with few exceptions? Guesses: one, bursting of the housing market bubble, making buyers feel much less extravagant! Two, uncertainty about gas prices.

    We just might be seeing the end of the performance/horsepower wars between AMG/BMW M and Infiniti/Lexus.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    We just might be seeing the end of the performance/horsepower wars between AMG/BMW M and Infiniti/Lexus.

    I don't think thats true. I don't see anyone trying to outgun Bugatti, but there's still an expectation that a new generation car has more horsepower than the last. I don't see that changing.
  • It probably should end, but I don't think it will. I think most for buyers at this end of the scale the cost of gasoline is not a consideration. Although I must admit I'm surprised at the number of complaints about the M45's gas mileage. One would think people able to pay $50K and up for a car wouldn't care whether they got 16 mpg or 21 mpg.
  • I for one care about mileage to some degree. There are killer deals out there on BMW 7's but I for one wouldn't take the risk on a 3 year lease not knowing what was going to happen to gas prices.

    I am happy to report that my '07 MB E350 Sport has - even though I am still in break in - beat the mileage of my V6 Honda Accord. The 7 speed auto is amazing and probably the reason for the great mileage (20.7 mpg in 85% city stop and go).
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    Two, uncertainty about gas prices.

    We just might be seeing the end of the performance/horsepower wars between AMG/BMW M and Infiniti/Lexus.

    Oh really? Well in that case tell that to performance car loving Europeans who spend about double in gas prices than what we spend today in North America.

    Buying a luxury and performance car is not a rational and economic decision. As gas prices keep going up the prestige and status of being able to afford a gas guzzling performance car also goes up. In fact I claim the opposite: As gas prices go up there will be even more priviledged and wealthy people seeking to buy gas guzzling AMGs and BMW Ms.
    If gas prices go down then demand for AMGs and BMW Ms will begin to sputter.

    The above may not sound rational, but that's the whole point of luxury (being able to afford scarcities that the majority cannot afford).

    Is it mere coincidence that the recent increase in fuel prices is also accompanied with exponential growth for BMW Ms, Audi RSs/S and MB AMGs? I dont think so. In fact BMW, Audi and MB are plannig to expand their offerings of such cars and many Japanese competitiors will be introducing new vehicles with humungous displacement.

    In the case of high performance cars all I can say is thank God for high fuel prices.
  • I do have a fondness for the German cars we talk about here. It is somewhat confusing that they do seem to follow (in some respects) rather than lead in the HP (and more importantly but hardly ever mentioned torque) contest (I almost said "war.")

    The M comes out with 280HP whilst BMW has the 225HP -- and while Audi does have a 265HP V6 bi-turbo (which was at that moment on its way bye-bye to be replaced with a 255HP engine with almost 40 "torques" less and at a higher RPM to boot) well the M was leading.

    A misstep from Lexus with a 240HP G was all that left the two NEW Germans both with very nice but somewhat "nearly" ample power of 255HP from being tied for the lowest power along with the STS V6.

    For a brief moment in time 255HP could have been interpreted to be the new paradigm of power. Nah!

    The Japanese keep upping the ante. Now here come the 2007 Audi and BMW offerings -- ta da 255HP. What is up with that?

    BMW coulda put the 300HP turbo in the 5 series and Audi coulda blown on the 3.2 and breezed to 300HP in a heartbeat, too -- yet the Japanese LPS cars, all of 'em, get the power, the Germans follow again.

    One would think, if you read the magazines, that power sells. The numbers don't quite seem to support this.

    While hardly a dog, the 530xi automatic seems "this close" to sluggish -- even "feeling" less willing than the Audi 3.2, which is saying something.

    The M and G, however seem quite full of urge (even the M with its 5 speed transmission feels so much stronger than any "comparable" Audi or BMW -- yet, the BMW, at least -- sells like hotcakes.)

    So what is next?

    Will the 6 cylinder versions of all these fine LPS cars have to be close to, at or slightly above 300HP just to stay in the game? And, if so, when can we expect the engines from Audi and BMW that we know they can produce with half their engineering staff on vacation, to finally make it to the LPS cars.

    Audi has just boosted the 2.0T to 220HP -- and the thing isn't even sweating. Not long ago all you could get out of the 3.0L in a 530 was 225HP. The outgoing 1.8T Audi motor was also 225HP.

    Are they just taunting and teasing us?

    Meanwhile both Infiniti and Lexus (especially) seem very willing to move up the efficiency and power ladder oh, about every other year.

    What's next -- follow the leader, one can only assume.

    I'm about 1/2 way through the A6 3.2 lease -- love the car, even starting to "almost" love an automatic transmission.

    But the new 2007 A6 3.2 without the technology package on the showroom floor is $54K. I'd like at least 295HP please, for this kind of money.

    Makes you wonder if Cadillac will sneak in another 45HP on the base STS and really make me wonder how the Germans will get away with being seemingly underpowered. :confuse:
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The Japanese keep upping the ante. Now here come the 2007 Audi and BMW offerings -- ta da 255HP. What is up with that?

    BMW coulda put the 300HP turbo in the 5 series and Audi coulda blown on the 3.2 and breezed to 300HP in a heartbeat, too -- yet the Japanese LPS cars, all of 'em, get the power, the Germans follow again.

    It's not really that Japan is leading and Germany is following. Yes Infiniti and Lexus's 3.5Ls are incredibly powerful, but so is M-B's. For 3.0L or 3.1L of displacement, 255hp is nothing to sneeze at.

    German V6s have often been smaller (and thus less powerful) than their Japanese counterparts. In the previous decade when Japan had 3.0Ls, Germany was using 2.8s, and doing just fine. With V8s, its the opposite. Japanese V8s are small comapred to their German counterparts (with the exception of Audi's 4.2), and make less power.
  • Why is the GS350 being completely ignored here? With the new engine, its power now puts it in the same league as the others here. Why is it being snubbed? Handling? Headroom? Too quiet? Trunk room? Awkward pull-down controls on left? Cushy ride?
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