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Hybrids in the News

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Comments

  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    "Toyota Motor Corp. will begin making its ecologically friendly hybrid model in China by the end of 2005, the first overseas assembly for the company's Prius vehicle...."

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004- /09/15/financial1104EDT0083.DTL&type=business
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Is this an assembly of a kit Prius? I wonder what percentage of components will be shipped to China from Japan?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Other automotive joint ventures in the PRC are pretty picky about requiring significant local componentry. This has been an issue for makes like VW and Audi that need to increase local content, but don't want quality to suffer. Maybe this will be an exception because of the specialized components, especially the drivetrain and battery, in the Prius. However, there is no reason that components like plastics and interior bits could not be sourced in China.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Sylvia, please stay with me on this, because there is evidence that "prices paid" does directly relate to "news" articles about hybrids - because ALMOST every single article refers to "how much more expensive" hybrids are than comparable non-hybrid models, and that is just NOT TRUE IN *EVERY* CASE like the news articles make it out to be.

    For some reason, they all seem to ALWAYS point out the HIGH END of the difference, instead of the ATTAINABLE low end. And if "the masses" who read those articles get persuaded (falsely) that Hybrids are such an uncostworthy purchase, then we are all harmed by having fewer low-emmission and lower gas cosumption vehicles on the roads.

    In my case, I consider myself VERY educated on Hybrids, the technology, and have read most of the major news articles I could locate on the web in the last few years. My ex roommate and co-worker for five years leased an EV-1 for our company, then he purchased an Insight for himself, then he purchased a Civic Hybrid, and then he purchased a 2004 Prius. I have ridden in and driven all those cars over the years. I knew his gas mileage stories and his maintenance costs.

    So when I went car shopping in July, I used all my knowledge and resources and personal experience and narrowed down to the EX or the Hybrid. I knew ALL ABOUT paying $4000 more for the hybrid, because I had read all the press articles.

    I shopped my local dealers and there was a USED 2004 EX (3000 miles) on the lot I liked very much, it was loaded. I looked also at the only used Hybrid on the lot, a 2004 MT HCH with 4823 miles.

    I drove both cars, and liked the additional engine pep of the EX. But I had just gotten rid of a Chevy Avalanche Z71, with it's smoking 13.5 MPG - so the added attraction of the Hybrid's 12-15 MPG edge over the EX turned the tables for the Hybrid.

    I had bargained both down to $17,800 for the EX and $19,324 for the Hybrid. So for $1,524 more I got the Hybrid. I have NOW WAY OF KNOWING if I could have bargained that EX down farther, but that was the bottom line prices that they brought out to me on the "four square" sheet at the dealership.

    Now, maybe I'm way more educated than the normal car shopper, maybe not. I know I'm not that good a negoatiator, but the FACT remains INDISPUTABLE that I could have had a Hybrid or a comparable non-hybrid of the same car line for a difference of only $1524.

    That flies in the face of all the news articles, and I apologize for that, but it is a fact nonetheless.

    So my point is that "Hybrids in the News" should be taken with a grain of salt and people should do their own shopping before they believe the $4K to $5K difference claims.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    I don't have an issue with people discussing that - they just need to "move" or "keep" those posts in either the Prices Paid discussion for the vehicle or the main vehicle discussion.

    The news topic gets easily derailed AND means people looking for pricing info/advice/opinions won't always find it.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    They may not need to ship them to China, if they are already being manufactured there. Not many areas of manufacturing are left out of the China bidding.
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 458
    I had bargained both down to $17,800 for the EX and $19,324 for the Hybrid. So for $1,524 more I got the Hybrid. I have NOW WAY OF KNOWING if I could have bargained that EX down farther, but that was the bottom line prices that they brought out to me on the "four square" sheet at the dealership.

    17800 for a used 04 Civic EX is beyond ridiculous. The dealer probably wanted to sell you the HCH and was high-balling the EX. If you want a real-world valuation, go over to the RWTIV board and Terry will give you a number that would have been very close to what would have brought the EX home.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    So my point is that "Hybrids in the News" should be taken with a grain of salt and people should do their own shopping before they believe the $4K to $5K difference claims.

    I don't doubt you did OK on your purchase. But you are comparing used to new which is what the articles all allude to. Maybe the dealer wanted to unload the used HCH. Maybe it has a history that is not great. Maybe it was a demo. It is not new if it has over 100 miles on it. My dealer told me they add $1000 to MSRP on all Honda Hybrids, that is in San Diego. Not sure about the rest of the country. That makes it an easy $5000 over a comparable Civic without hybrid. So your argument is relating to one very isolated incident and cannot be considered as the norm. The average Joe that goes in to buy a HCH is going to pay $4k to $5k more for that technology.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't understand--the buying climate in one city can't be considered the norm, but the buying climate in San Diego CAN be considered the norm? Since when is California considered the norm for any kind of behavior? ;-) Here in the Midwest (the geographical norm if nothing else), dealers are discounting the HCH. Check out the TMV prices--hundreds under MSRP.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I would think that it is by the fact it is the largest market. That is why the $4-5k span. It is $5k higher in San Diego. Maybe only $4k where you live paying MSRP. I don't really see the argument as there is no doubt people are paying a premium for all hybrid cars. I watch the "prices paid" and have not seen anybody buying for $1000 under MSRP. Maybe in the midwest the people are coming to their senses and not treating the hybrid as some kind of godsend.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Unless you are the subject of a news article, your personal experience is likely to be different than the one in the news article.

    Quote larsb- I had bargained both down to $17,800 for the EX and $19,324 for the Hybrid. So for $1,524 more I got the Hybrid. I have NOW WAY OF KNOWING if I could have bargained that EX down farther, but that was the bottom line prices that they brought out to me on the "four square" sheet at the dealership.

    Now, maybe I'm way more educated than the normal car shopper, maybe not. I know I'm not that good a negoatiator, but the FACT remains INDISPUTABLE that I could have had a Hybrid or a comparable non-hybrid of the same car line for a difference of only $1524.-end

    The FACT is that you paid $19,324 for your used HCH, $3,434 more than I can buy a new 2004 Civic EX 4 door automatic for today.

    Regarding "four square", remember that the dealer is the one "working" the numbers. If the dealer brings out a four square sheet they are truly maximizing their profit.

    We can debate MSRP to MSRP w/o argument (I would hope) however, debating the personal price paid for a vehicle is a hopeless discussion.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote moparbad-"We can debate MSRP to MSRP w/o argument (I would hope) however, debating the personal price paid for a vehicle is a hopeless discussion."-end quote

    OK let's do that MSRP comparison and not argue about it - this is from the Edmunds website:

    EX Styles (MSRP: $17,750 - $18,800)
    Hybrid Styles (MSRP: $20,140 - $21,140)

    Lowest diff = $1340. Remember, no arguing !!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Another new Hybrid commentary that focuses on economic incentives to drive efficiency:

    http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/09/09_201.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Interesting math, you had to have gone to school in the 1990s. I see $2340-$2390 difference.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Prius has outsold HCH in 2004 (through July) by about 11,000 cars in the USA:

    http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040915/- BUSINESS04/409150321/1033
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    What is the point of V10 in that thing? This V6 hybrid super sedan prototype was showcased three years ago, with 400 HP, 0-60 in 4.5s, AWD, capable of achieving 300 km/h and 42 mpg.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Automobilemag.com drives the new GMC Sierra Hybrid:

    http://automobilemag.com/news/new_2005/Pickup_Trucks/0409_gmc_sie- rra_hybrid/
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"Interesting math, you had to have gone to school in the 1990s. I see $2340-$2390 difference."-end quote

    Last time I checked, $20140 minus $18800 equals $1340....is my calculator broken?

    ( Highest price EX versus lowest priced Hybrid )
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    "economic incentives to drive efficiency"

    i.e. how can we force those stupid consumers to buy the kind of cars that we, the elite intelligensia, think are the "right" cars. That is, small, underpowered vehicles with good mileage and low emissions.

    I also have a problem with incentives that focus on a particular technology (e.g. hybrids) rather than the results gained from the tech (e.g. better MPG, low emissions).

    Finally, I thought it was pretty funny that some greenies were AGAINST the hybrids being allowed in HOV lanes because hybrids are most efficient stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic. LOL
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I thought it was pretty funny that some greenies were AGAINST the hybrids being allowed in HOV lanes because hybrids are most efficient stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

    I saw it as a balanced state of mind that many seem to lack. On a lighter note, wouldn’t it make sense to have these HOV lanes clogged up as well, to harness the hybrid efficiencies!

    That said, hybrids show improvements in highway driving as well. Accord hybrid is expected to deliver 38 mpg.
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    I agree with you, I just thought it was funny. ;-)

    Personally, I'm against HOV's in general although that recent traffic study by the Texas place showed a 1-2% decrease in congestion.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I know you will never give up on your idea of what is accurate. To compare the highest priced Civic to the lowest priced Hybrid is the same as comparing an Accord to a Lexus IMO. You need to stick to comparables. If the highest priced Civic is comparable to the cheapest HCH then you are correct in your math. Otherwise your math is defective.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote gagrice-"If the highest priced Civic is comparable to the cheapest HCH then you are correct in your math."-end quote.

    You are correct - that statement is true. The highest level EX is comparable to the lowest level HCH. You are trading a sunroof and a fold down rear seat for 12-15 extra miles per gallon and the "climate control system" which is standard on the HCH and not available on the EX.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "You are trading a sunroof and a fold down rear seat for 12-15 extra miles per gallon and the "climate control system" which is standard on the HCH and not available on the EX."

    Of course, the HCH has a lower engine oil change schedule, if I remember?

    Severe useage oil change schedule (double for normal useage):

    HCH - 3750 miles
    Civic EX - 5000 miles
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Why don't we do the right thing and move this discussion to the Honda Civic Hybrid forum, before we get scolded.....?????
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    That is one PATIENT dude !!! LOL......
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Regarding C3 Start and Stop

    http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/news/industry_news/news-5645ciadje

    quote- the system would be deployed with PSA diesel cars equipped with particulate filters within 18 months, to achieve emissions results comparable to those of Toyota’s Prius petrol-electric hybrid system, which Satinet said could not be profitable at its current price.-end
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    That is a deceptive article. The "emissions" he was talking about was CARBON DIOXIDE, but he implies they are actually SMOG related.

    In reality, the car likely emits significantly higher levels of NOx & HC.

    Unless you see an actual emission rating like PZEV (US) or a European equivalent, don't assume it is clean.

    JOHN
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "That is a deceptive article. The "emissions" he was talking about was CARBON DIOXIDE, but he implies they are actually SMOG related.

    In reality, the car likely emits significantly higher levels of NOx & HC.

    Unless you see an actual emission rating like PZEV (US) or a European equivalent, don't assume it is clean."

    John,
    This article does not say anything about being just CARBON DIOXIDE. My reading of this article indicates that the author meant both CO2 and other pollutants.

    Do you have information from another source on the Citroen C3 Stop-Start model?

    Anyone fluent in French? I found the following site:

    http://www.citroen.com/site/htm/fr/actualites/040901_c3stt
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Do you have information from another source on the Citroen C3 Stop-Start model?

    Yes.

    Several different articles were published recently, and not a single one of them mentioned SMOG related emissions.

    JOHN
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Ford gets the prize for milking something for all its worth but GM isn't far behind - snip - Keep New York beautiful took on new meaning here as General Motors Corp. rolled out its Glam Truck, one of its hybrid pickups outfitted as the ultimate beauty salon.
    http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_gm_glamour_truck/index.htm
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Yes.

    Several different articles were published recently, and not a single one of them mentioned SMOG related emissions."

    John, could you share the links?
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    Might want to cross-post these in the Hybrid Diesels? discussion.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    >MPG obtained on Prius: 60
    >MPG of car (truck) Prius replaced: 20
    >Weekly gas costs with Prius: $10
    >Weekly gas cost with other car: $30
    >Annual gas savings: $1560
    >Savings over ten years (if gas price remains >constant): $15,600

    >This shows how dangerous gross generalizations >such as, drivers would need at least 10 years >and 100,000 miles to recoup $2,000-3,000 in gas >savings, are. They may be true for some >drivers, but clearly not for all. (Who are >those unnamed "analysts" who are making those >assertions, anyway?)

    You are absolutely right about dangerous gross genralizations. For example, they show a weekly gas savings of $20 ( $30-$10) and an annual savings of $1560, that equates to a 78 week year.

    If the math is that far off, how can you possibly believe or rely on the rest of the article ? A 78 week year is a gross generalization, exaclty a 50 percent fudge.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Why does the "Reply" button not include the original message number.

    While the intent of the "Reply" button is good, the execution is dismal.

    SORRY THIS IS OFF-TOPIC move if you need too :)
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    The post number is no longer in the reply because:

    -if we have to move a post the # sticks with it...so it looks odd to have reply #561 showing up in a discussion with only 15 posts.

    -once we get our upgrade in (hopefully soon) people will be allowed to view in conversation mode (like we do now with post #'s being in chronological order) or in threaded mode where the numbering will display in thread number (56 > 56.1 > 56.2, 57, 58, 58.1 . 58.1.1) and the message title headers can't change to react to the person's viewing. Probably sounds confusing - will make more sense when implemented.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    John
    Thanks for the posts.

    I think the question here is how low are the emissions of the C3 while running. This would determine if the vehicle is similar to the Prius in emissions.

    I don't think it will be quite as low, because the electric motor means the Prius engine doesn't work as hard as the C3.

    Even if the engine is very low emissions, the fact that the C3 ICE runs whenever the vehicle is in motion will mean higher overall emissions vs. the Prius.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Sylvia,

    Thanks for the answer, Now it makes sense. You and the other hosts do a excellent job of trying to keep the messages in the right categories, keeping the threads on topic and keeping the bickering and personal derogatory remarks to a minimum.

    Thanks again for all your hosting work!

    MidCow.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    <blush> aww, shucks. thanks!

    Now...back to the news...any scoops out there today?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This may be the only way Toyota can make money on the Prius...

    "The Prius, so far the only Toyota model for sale as a hybrid, is sold at a hefty premium over ordinary gasoline-powered vehicles of similar size."

    http://www.iht.com/articles/539083.html
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    But Prius isn't as expensive as the smaller Lexus IS300. Is it? ;-)
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  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you would read a couple of posts down from the one you replied to, you would see that I corrected the math error in my original post. Based on that, what do you think about the generalizations made in the article?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7540&sid=17- - 3&n=156 Calling it a "very important strategy," General Motors is finalizing plans to roll out at least two hybrid models in China, revealed Troy Clarke, director of the automaker's Asia/Pacific region.

    GM is finally taking action to reduce fuel consumption. I would expect to see hybrids offered worldwide in GM vehicles.
    Good news!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "Engineering consultancy Ricardo predicts that hybrid-powered vehicles (petrol-electric or diesel-electric) will account for 6 percent of the European car market by 2010."

    Did you notice in the first article that they did not even mention Japanese hybrids. I think the Eurpoeans are much better at keeping their money at home than we are..
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Europeans can keep more of the car-buying money at home because they have lots of good European-sourced small cars to choose from. But until the European makes catch up on hybrids, the Europeans are left with existing (imported) hybrids like the Prius. Once the diesel hybrids become reality, I expect they'll be popular in Europe.
This discussion has been closed.