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Hybrids in the News
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Comments
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004- /09/15/financial1104EDT0083.DTL&type=business
For some reason, they all seem to ALWAYS point out the HIGH END of the difference, instead of the ATTAINABLE low end. And if "the masses" who read those articles get persuaded (falsely) that Hybrids are such an uncostworthy purchase, then we are all harmed by having fewer low-emmission and lower gas cosumption vehicles on the roads.
In my case, I consider myself VERY educated on Hybrids, the technology, and have read most of the major news articles I could locate on the web in the last few years. My ex roommate and co-worker for five years leased an EV-1 for our company, then he purchased an Insight for himself, then he purchased a Civic Hybrid, and then he purchased a 2004 Prius. I have ridden in and driven all those cars over the years. I knew his gas mileage stories and his maintenance costs.
So when I went car shopping in July, I used all my knowledge and resources and personal experience and narrowed down to the EX or the Hybrid. I knew ALL ABOUT paying $4000 more for the hybrid, because I had read all the press articles.
I shopped my local dealers and there was a USED 2004 EX (3000 miles) on the lot I liked very much, it was loaded. I looked also at the only used Hybrid on the lot, a 2004 MT HCH with 4823 miles.
I drove both cars, and liked the additional engine pep of the EX. But I had just gotten rid of a Chevy Avalanche Z71, with it's smoking 13.5 MPG - so the added attraction of the Hybrid's 12-15 MPG edge over the EX turned the tables for the Hybrid.
I had bargained both down to $17,800 for the EX and $19,324 for the Hybrid. So for $1,524 more I got the Hybrid. I have NOW WAY OF KNOWING if I could have bargained that EX down farther, but that was the bottom line prices that they brought out to me on the "four square" sheet at the dealership.
Now, maybe I'm way more educated than the normal car shopper, maybe not. I know I'm not that good a negoatiator, but the FACT remains INDISPUTABLE that I could have had a Hybrid or a comparable non-hybrid of the same car line for a difference of only $1524.
That flies in the face of all the news articles, and I apologize for that, but it is a fact nonetheless.
So my point is that "Hybrids in the News" should be taken with a grain of salt and people should do their own shopping before they believe the $4K to $5K difference claims.
The news topic gets easily derailed AND means people looking for pricing info/advice/opinions won't always find it.
17800 for a used 04 Civic EX is beyond ridiculous. The dealer probably wanted to sell you the HCH and was high-balling the EX. If you want a real-world valuation, go over to the RWTIV board and Terry will give you a number that would have been very close to what would have brought the EX home.
I don't doubt you did OK on your purchase. But you are comparing used to new which is what the articles all allude to. Maybe the dealer wanted to unload the used HCH. Maybe it has a history that is not great. Maybe it was a demo. It is not new if it has over 100 miles on it. My dealer told me they add $1000 to MSRP on all Honda Hybrids, that is in San Diego. Not sure about the rest of the country. That makes it an easy $5000 over a comparable Civic without hybrid. So your argument is relating to one very isolated incident and cannot be considered as the norm. The average Joe that goes in to buy a HCH is going to pay $4k to $5k more for that technology.
V10 Hybrid!
Quote larsb- I had bargained both down to $17,800 for the EX and $19,324 for the Hybrid. So for $1,524 more I got the Hybrid. I have NOW WAY OF KNOWING if I could have bargained that EX down farther, but that was the bottom line prices that they brought out to me on the "four square" sheet at the dealership.
Now, maybe I'm way more educated than the normal car shopper, maybe not. I know I'm not that good a negoatiator, but the FACT remains INDISPUTABLE that I could have had a Hybrid or a comparable non-hybrid of the same car line for a difference of only $1524.-end
The FACT is that you paid $19,324 for your used HCH, $3,434 more than I can buy a new 2004 Civic EX 4 door automatic for today.
Regarding "four square", remember that the dealer is the one "working" the numbers. If the dealer brings out a four square sheet they are truly maximizing their profit.
We can debate MSRP to MSRP w/o argument (I would hope) however, debating the personal price paid for a vehicle is a hopeless discussion.
OK let's do that MSRP comparison and not argue about it - this is from the Edmunds website:
EX Styles (MSRP: $17,750 - $18,800)
Hybrid Styles (MSRP: $20,140 - $21,140)
Lowest diff = $1340. Remember, no arguing !!
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/09/09_201.html
http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040915/- BUSINESS04/409150321/1033
http://automobilemag.com/news/new_2005/Pickup_Trucks/0409_gmc_sie- rra_hybrid/
Last time I checked, $20140 minus $18800 equals $1340....is my calculator broken?
( Highest price EX versus lowest priced Hybrid )
i.e. how can we force those stupid consumers to buy the kind of cars that we, the elite intelligensia, think are the "right" cars. That is, small, underpowered vehicles with good mileage and low emissions.
I also have a problem with incentives that focus on a particular technology (e.g. hybrids) rather than the results gained from the tech (e.g. better MPG, low emissions).
Finally, I thought it was pretty funny that some greenies were AGAINST the hybrids being allowed in HOV lanes because hybrids are most efficient stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic. LOL
I saw it as a balanced state of mind that many seem to lack. On a lighter note, wouldn’t it make sense to have these HOV lanes clogged up as well, to harness the hybrid efficiencies!
That said, hybrids show improvements in highway driving as well. Accord hybrid is expected to deliver 38 mpg.
Personally, I'm against HOV's in general although that recent traffic study by the Texas place showed a 1-2% decrease in congestion.
You are correct - that statement is true. The highest level EX is comparable to the lowest level HCH. You are trading a sunroof and a fold down rear seat for 12-15 extra miles per gallon and the "climate control system" which is standard on the HCH and not available on the EX.
Of course, the HCH has a lower engine oil change schedule, if I remember?
Severe useage oil change schedule (double for normal useage):
HCH - 3750 miles
Civic EX - 5000 miles
On the list for THREE YEARS.
http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/news/industry_news/news-5645ciadje
quote- the system would be deployed with PSA diesel cars equipped with particulate filters within 18 months, to achieve emissions results comparable to those of Toyota’s Prius petrol-electric hybrid system, which Satinet said could not be profitable at its current price.-end
In reality, the car likely emits significantly higher levels of NOx & HC.
Unless you see an actual emission rating like PZEV (US) or a European equivalent, don't assume it is clean.
JOHN
In reality, the car likely emits significantly higher levels of NOx & HC.
Unless you see an actual emission rating like PZEV (US) or a European equivalent, don't assume it is clean."
John,
This article does not say anything about being just CARBON DIOXIDE. My reading of this article indicates that the author meant both CO2 and other pollutants.
Do you have information from another source on the Citroen C3 Stop-Start model?
Anyone fluent in French? I found the following site:
http://www.citroen.com/site/htm/fr/actualites/040901_c3stt
Yes.
Several different articles were published recently, and not a single one of them mentioned SMOG related emissions.
JOHN
http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_gm_glamour_truck/index.htm
Several different articles were published recently, and not a single one of them mentioned SMOG related emissions."
John, could you share the links?
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/business/9604045.htm
http://newpaper.asia1.com.sg/top/story/0,4136,72743-1,00.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/537825.html
http://motoring.iafrica.com/newsbriefs/345938.htm
http://www.autoindustry.co.uk/news/industry_news/news-5645ciadje
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northwest_weekly/story.jsp- ?story=562041
http://www.carpages.co.uk/citroen/citroen_paris_motor_show_14_09_- 04.asp?switched=on&echo=543051698
...notice how SMOG related emissions are not mentioned.
JOHN
>MPG of car (truck) Prius replaced: 20
>Weekly gas costs with Prius: $10
>Weekly gas cost with other car: $30
>Annual gas savings: $1560
>Savings over ten years (if gas price remains >constant): $15,600
>This shows how dangerous gross generalizations >such as, drivers would need at least 10 years >and 100,000 miles to recoup $2,000-3,000 in gas >savings, are. They may be true for some >drivers, but clearly not for all. (Who are >those unnamed "analysts" who are making those >assertions, anyway?)
You are absolutely right about dangerous gross genralizations. For example, they show a weekly gas savings of $20 ( $30-$10) and an annual savings of $1560, that equates to a 78 week year.
If the math is that far off, how can you possibly believe or rely on the rest of the article ? A 78 week year is a gross generalization, exaclty a 50 percent fudge.
YMMV,
MidCow
While the intent of the "Reply" button is good, the execution is dismal.
SORRY THIS IS OFF-TOPIC move if you need too
-if we have to move a post the # sticks with it...so it looks odd to have reply #561 showing up in a discussion with only 15 posts.
-once we get our upgrade in (hopefully soon) people will be allowed to view in conversation mode (like we do now with post #'s being in chronological order) or in threaded mode where the numbering will display in thread number (56 > 56.1 > 56.2, 57, 58, 58.1 . 58.1.1) and the message title headers can't change to react to the person's viewing. Probably sounds confusing - will make more sense when implemented.
Thanks for the posts.
I think the question here is how low are the emissions of the C3 while running. This would determine if the vehicle is similar to the Prius in emissions.
I don't think it will be quite as low, because the electric motor means the Prius engine doesn't work as hard as the C3.
Even if the engine is very low emissions, the fact that the C3 ICE runs whenever the vehicle is in motion will mean higher overall emissions vs. the Prius.
Thanks for the answer, Now it makes sense. You and the other hosts do a excellent job of trying to keep the messages in the right categories, keeping the threads on topic and keeping the bickering and personal derogatory remarks to a minimum.
Thanks again for all your hosting work!
MidCow.
Now...back to the news...any scoops out there today?
"The Prius, so far the only Toyota model for sale as a hybrid, is sold at a hefty premium over ordinary gasoline-powered vehicles of similar size."
http://www.iht.com/articles/539083.html
Thank you.
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Share your vehicle reviews
GM is finally taking action to reduce fuel consumption. I would expect to see hybrids offered worldwide in GM vehicles.
Good news!
Environment: Sales of hybrid vehicles to grow rapidly in Europe
Hybrid Electric Vehicles are on the way
Did you notice in the first article that they did not even mention Japanese hybrids. I think the Eurpoeans are much better at keeping their money at home than we are..