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Hybrid Diesels?

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  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    http://carsguide.news.com.au/story/0,20384,19844037-21822,00.html

    Termed a "mild hybrid" by Mercedes because the motor is designed to help the diesel, the E320 is the company's first foray into production hybrids.

    It is also claimed to be the world's cleanest diesel and has a respectable average fuel consumption of 6.7 litres/100km.

    The low emission of the Bluetec is partly attributed to its refined diesel engine with three filters -- catalytic, particulate and a nitrogen oxide-reducing system known as DeNOx.

    The filters are highly sensitive to the amount of sulphur in the diesel fuel, so Bluetec is suitable for the US market with its 5ppm of sulphur...

    The E320 Bluetec will be joined later by a GL-based four-wheel-drive version and one based on an S-Class.

    Mercedes director of diesel engines Joachim Schommers says the $12 billion annual investment by his company on research and development is necessary to maintain mobility in the future.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,267
    Oh PLEASE bring that darned thing here. The bluetec E320 is already on the top of my list for my next car (if i can swing the payments by that time) just because its a diesel that still performs as good as its gas counterpart AND gets 37 mpg in the process. If they hybridize it, too .... woohoo!

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • orbit9090orbit9090 Posts: 116
    Until low-sulfer diesel fuel was avail. in the US (this month), there would have been no emission advantage to a hybrid, which was the reason hybrids were developed in the first place (to meet tougher emission regs).
    Extra MPG is a nice bonus.
    So, why don't GM & Ford have low-sulfer diesel hybrids ready to sell? Because they have missed the boat.

    They could have been Zillionaires...

    image
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    "no emission advantage to the hybrids"

    WEll, ACtually, that is yet to be determined.

    When the CARB states approve new passenger diesel sales, EPA will test them, and if they score equal to the PZEV hybrids, then we can say there is "no advantage."

    Until those tests are done, only the SHADOW knows....:)
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/000791.html

    This would be the best of both worlds.

    Who's gonna step up and build on of these?

    The irony is that diesel hybrids could be far more efficient and clean than anything now on the market, without any leaps in technology. The combination of modern clean diesel engines, Prius-style serial hybrid-electric systems, and biodiesel/vegetable oil fuels could provide amazing mileage, cleaner air, and vastly reduced petroleum dependency. Comfortable, powerful sedans could get upwards of 80 miles per gallon and be carbon-neutral.

    (More in the extended entry...)

    It's certainly not that diesel hybrids are somehow impossible. Diesel-electric hybrid buses are available and have been rolled out in (among other places) Seattle, Washington and Apeldoorn, in the Netherlands. As for autos, Ford, GM, and Daimler-Chrysler each built prototype diesel hybrids a few years ago which got mileage in the 70-80 mpg range. But the automakers opted not to produce them, as the cars couldn't meet strict air pollution rules while running on the sulfur-laden American diesel.
  • gagprice said "The Hybrid Civic is the only hybrid that gets decent mileage at a decent price. "

    It depends on what your goal is If is low TCO than a hybrid is not the answer! The only thing most hybrids offer are high mpg and low emissions, not economy or savings. Therefore the statement is somewhat oxymoronic because it contains two mutually exclusive statements "decent price" and "decent mileage". Hybrids cannot be found at a decent price. Even the Civic hybrid is expensive! So decent mileage is a moot point if it cannot be recovered in less than 3-5 years.

    The TCO solution is to pick up a cheap Rio or Aveo or even a Cobalt.

    LOL,

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Peugot 307 CC HDi Diesel Hybrid sedan

    The hybrid diesel engine, based on equivalent performance, heralds a genuine new benchmark in terms of fuel consumption, since it combines the exceptional effi ciency of a smaller capacity HDi engine, operating in its optimal operating range, with that of an electric motor designed mainly for use in town.

    Its mixed-cycle fuel consumption of 4.1 l /100 km means a gain of 30 % compared to a standard 2.0 litre HDi FAP version.

    Driving pleasure, a fundamental concern of the Marque, has not been compromised. In addition to the all-electric operating mode for use in town at low speed, which provides a high level of noise and vibration insulation, this hybrid HDi power train offers substantially improved acceleration compared to a traditional vehicle of equivalent power.

    The driver benefi ts on an ad hoc basis from the additional power from the electric motor of up to 31 kW.

    For example, equipped with an 80 kW HDi FAP 1.6 litre engine (around 110 bhp), the performance of the coupé cabriolet is roughly the same as the standard 2.0 litre HDi FAP production version (around 136 bhp).

    This makes the 307 CC HybrideHDi an attractive, concrete example of the Marque’s technological know-how: - in the fi eld of hi-tech diesel engines and that of electric vehicles. - but also in its ability to innovate, by presenting the fi rst coupé cabriolet with hybrid technology without adversely affecting the car’s features (style, capacity, boot, etc).
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,267
    AND an attractive car with a retractable hardtop, to boot. Man, that's sweet.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Message to Peugot:

    Bring that to the USA and I'd buy that car in a heartbeat...... :shades:
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    What standard do you apply before labeling a car "expensive"?

    I keep reading this forum, others ones, and it seems as if that term is highly subjective, no?

    If one looks at what is actually selling the most in the US, and what options are being ordered, it seems to me that most any Hybrid isn't more than one step up, price-wise, to what most people are buying.....

    I am really interested in people's thoughts on this....at what price point do they beleive a vehicle to become "expensive". And I mean this in a personal way, not what your thoughts are, but look at what you drive, and what it cost. ;)
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,267
    over $29,999. :)

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • Do you know where I can buy a Diesel Hybrid Motorcycle? Any information would be helpful... Thanks!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    Welcome to the Forum.
    You are wanting a lot on a motorcycle frame. Good luck in your search.

    http://www.hybrid-vehicles.net/ecycle-hybrid-motorcycles.htm
  • I had the opportunity to look at this vehicle quite closely, and talk to one of the Ricardo engineers involved (it was exhibited at the Greenpower Electric Car Marathon national final - an event for UK schools).

    Very impressive, but still slightly over-expensive.

    Hybrid cars have an advanage in transient driving conditions (accelerating, decelerating) in that they can recover energy via regenerative braking, and re-use it for acceleration.
    The current gasoline-hybrids are not very successful in Europe because the hybrid gives minimal improvement (and perhaps even some disadvantage due to weight) in highway / motorway driving - in these conditions a gasoline-electric hybrid cannot match a good diesel. For example, a euro-spec Prius uses 4.2 l/100km on the EC extra-urban cycle, while a similar-size Renault Mégane 1.5dCi 106hp uses only 4.0 l/100km on the same cycle.

    By combining a hybrid with a diesel engine you get diesel efficency on the motorway, combined with the advantages of regenerative braking and engine shut-off in transient conditions. Bear in mind that its not just stationary idling when the IC engine can be shut of in traffic, but also low speed driving and when slowing / braking / coasting. A diesel may use very little fuel when idling, but it still uses fuel (and creates noise and pollution).

    The problems with the diesel hybrid beyond that of a petrol hybrid are cost (a turbo-diesel engine already costs more than a petrol engine), packaging (the underbonnet package has to accomodate the turbo installation, a more robust engine block, and the hybrid hardware) and smooth transition between electric only and IC power due to the greater torque required to start a diesel engine combined with its greater torque output at low revs - if you tried to use a system similar to Honda's IMA or Toyota's Synergy Drive, you would have severe driveline shunt to cope with.

    The PSA/Ricardo/QinetiQ prototype gets round this by using a separate starter/generator to start the engine while decoupled from the electric drive, then speed matching the engine to the drive before coupling it (just like any car with an automated manual transmission) - not as efficient, but much smoother.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Very informative post. Thanks for that.

    My limited knowledge on diesels is going to be exposed here, but here are the thoughts generated by your post:

    1. Seems to me that the "auto-stop" feature on a diesel hybrid would be a problem, but with the VW Lupo diesel that supposedly has an "auto-stop" feature, maybe I'm off base on that. Don't diesel trucks idle a lot because restarting all the time is an issue?

    2. As far as the "turbo" on a diesel engine - a diesel/hybrid would eliminate the need for the turbocharger because the hybrid drive with it's added torque and added power would be available for that extra ooomph when needed. I feel like my TCH has a turbo when I floor it and see the gas and electric motors combining to give me that "pushed back in the seat" feeling.

    All these problems have been overcome in larger diesel/hybrids like the trucks and buses which are all around the world. So why it's so difficult to get it all together for a passenger sedan is a mystery to me.

    Seems like the company who could (and should) do it the easiest and fastest would be Honda with their IMA system, since they have their own new spanking diesel engine for the Accord diesel, and they already have an Accord gasser hybrid. Seems like blending those two would be about a 6-month project. What's the holdup dudes?? :confuse: :shades:
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    The article says that the diesel/hybrid will have a 30% advantage in fuel economy. Can I assume it will be in the 2.8 1/100km range? That would be a significant improvement over a comparable diesel car. Or are they saying it will be 30% better than a gas/hybrid?

    Thank you for the first hand report.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    All these problems have been overcome in larger diesel/hybrids like the trucks and buses which are all around the world. So why it's so difficult to get it all together for a passenger sedan is a mystery to me.

    The biggest problem is cost. As you know many communities would adopt the hybrid buses. They have a tremendous price difference. Last study I read by a municipality the payback was 57.5 years. No bus will last near that long. Average cost of a conventional diesel bus is $300k. Average diesel/hybrid bus is $500k to $600k depending on manufacturer. Advertised fuel economy gain 30%. Actual gain over regular diesel bus is as little as 10%, according to the study done by the Connecticut department of Transportation.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    Here is that study. Pretty comprehensive. Any city thinking of buying new buses should look at all options. If you have Natural gas it may be a better choice than a diesel/hybrid bus.

    http://www.ct.gov/dot/LIB/dot/documents/dresearch/CT-170-1884-3-04-5.pdf

    Who have bought hybrid buses? State by state count.

    http://www.hybridcenter.org/hybrid-transit-buses.html
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,267
    2. As far as the "turbo" on a diesel engine - a diesel/hybrid would eliminate the need for the turbocharger because the hybrid drive with it's added torque and added power would be available for that extra ooomph when needed. I feel like my TCH has a turbo when I floor it and see the gas and electric motors combining to give me that "pushed back in the seat" feeling.

    Well, I don't think it really eliminates the need. You are right, of course, that the electric drive would add to the pickup, but in a diesel, the turbo helps in more ways than just acceleration. Due to the very high compression ratio in a diesel engine, it requires quite a bit of air. More than a gasser. So even at highway speeds, a turbo is helping to get enough air into the cylinders so the engine runs more efficiently. At least, this is my understanding.

    PLUS, on the power side, why take away that which makes a diesel appealing by today's standards? With a turbo, today's diesels can keep up with the gasser alternatives. Without it, power-hungry folks (myself included) would not want to make the performance sacrifice and pick the diesel alternative.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • texasestexases Posts: 7,804
    If going to diesel could be done at no cost, fine, but adding a diesel to a hybrid, while certainly improving mileage, likely would not pay. This is the hardest thing to understand - going from, say, 25 mpg to 50 mpg generates much more savings than going from 50 mpg to 75 mpg. Over 100,000 miles, going from 25 mpg (4000 gallons used) to 50 mpg (2000 gallons used) saves 2000 gallons (which means you'd have to drive 50,000 just to pay off the $2800 spent on a hybrid Civic, assuming $2.80/gallon!). Now, assume a diesel hybrid gets 75 mpg. It would use 1333 gallons over 100,000 miles, a savings of only 667 gallons from 50 mpg, one third the savings from the 25 - 50 mpg step. Using the $1400 increment for a diesel Jetta, it would take about 75,000 miles to pay off the cost. If you start with a diesel to get to 50 mpg (25,000 miles to pay that off), then add the hybrid mechanism for $2800 additional to get to 75 mpg, it'll take 150,000 miles to pay that off. Way too long for any mass market. A better question is this - why hybrids at all, if a diesel can get about the same milage improvement for 1/2 the cost? I'm looking forward to Honda's new diesels.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    if a diesel can get about the same milage improvement for 1/2 the cost?

    You are way too practical and logical for this thread :blush:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    ..But then of course one is stuck with driving a Rio, Aveo or even a Corolla. But yes if TCO is the one and only goal you are right. A used one of the above is better yet.

    It's all in what you want to drive.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    For me a new commuter vehicle should be in the mid $20K range. I wouldn't spend $30K for it.
  • terry92270terry92270 Posts: 1,247
    So, do you have one car to commute, and another that you use for "family" uses or trips?

    I don't know if most people can afford that luxury.....and make their choice somewhere in the middle, which would be cheaper than two automobiles. Now if a married couple are both working, both commuting, I can see that.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I can't see how smart people on this board cannot understand that a diesel/hybrid is the best of two GOOD WORLDS and not a mixture of a GOOD WORLD and a BAD WORLD.

    Some of you act like hybridizing a diesel is an insult to diesel technology, when in reality that is not true or sensible at all.

    Here's some logic for you:

    If a diesel is ALREADY more efficient than a comparable gasser, and hybridization makes a gasser even MORE efficient, then a diesel which is hybridized will be the ultimate in efficiency.

    Who cares about adding "complexity" when the result is an awesome, awesome vehicle in regard to lowered pollution and superior (unsurpassed) gas mileage?

    Are we to say that "diesels are ALREADY PERFECT and cannot be improved upon so just leave it alone?" That attitude is nonsensical and would lead to stagnation.

    Honda engineers saw the chance to build a clean, efficient diesel engine and built a car which set 19 world records.

    That's called applying new ideas to old technology.

    Just like a 3600 pound 5-passenger 4-door diesel hybrid car which can get 70+ MPG will be, which is what I am waiting for.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    A better question is this - why hybrids at all, if a diesel can get about the same milage improvement for 1/2 the cost? I'm looking forward to Honda's new diesels.

    What is half the cost?

    This is the key unknown factor in the diesel equation now. What will be the 'extra' cost. If one compares the two closest vehicles most recently, the Jetta TDI and Prius ( both being the same size and directed to the same market ), the price difference was negligible.

    If the diesel Accord does come out and is priced in the $23000 range then it will likely be a success. If it's in the $26000 range then it's the same price as the TCH ( assuming similar equipment ). My guess is that Honda will price it in the higher range if only not to 'leave any money on the table'. Toyota and Honda always keep each other in sight here in this market. If Toyota is selling the TCH in the $27-$30K range Honda is not likely to give up making money selling to the same segment.

    Cost and Selling Price often have little to do with one another. My own guess is that Toyota, Honda and Hyundai all could sell their midsized vehicles under $20K and survive. It might squeeze the retailers until they sweat blood but it's possible, IMO.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    3

    my Prius for commuting .. 35-40,000 mi annually

    Then my wife's summer shoes .. an MR2 Spyder
    and then her winter shoes .. a 4WD V6 Highlander
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    Just like a 3600 pound 5-passenger 4-door diesel hybrid car which can get 70+ MPG will be, which is what I am waiting for.
    Good luck, I have waited for a midsized PU with a small efficient diesel to land on our shores for 8 years. I hope your not in a hurry. The real powers that be in this country are not interested in saving fossil fuel. Any roadblocks or diversions keep their agenda afloat.

    If a diesel is ALREADY more efficient than a comparable gasser, and hybridization makes a gasser even MORE efficient, then a diesel which is hybridized will be the ultimate in efficiency.

    I agree with your assessment. It just has not materialized in the form of a cost effective vehicle. You can crunch numbers all day and will not be able to justify a hybrid for mainstream buyers. It has to be someone wanting to make a statement or they have an extremely long commute. Since people have posted on this board I have seen poster after poster saying how the cost will come down. well almost 7 years later and not a single hybrid price has decreased. Add to that the diesel $1000 premium and the numbers do not add up.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    gary says "well almost 7 years later and not a single hybrid price has decreased. "

    Yes, but they have not gone up considerably either. The first Prius was $19,995 base price and today's model, although larger and much more of a car, is base priced in the $21s. That's not a huge increase, and not unlike any car would go up in 7 years.

    'Yota has demanded a price reduction and size reduction from their engineers for the next Gen Prius. We shall see.

    Dodge said the ESX-3 could sell for $28,500 in 1997. Were they lying? :shades:
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,133
    Dodge said the ESX-3 could sell for $28,500 in 1997. Were they lying?

    That was your perfect car. For about what people are paying for much less of a car in the Prius. Was it poor judgment on Chrysler's part. I don't know.

    You are fudging on the Prius pricing. The lowest level of Prius I have heard about is a 3. It has an MSRP of $25,350 and a TMV here of $27,646. That is 28% increase since I was offered a loaded one for $20k even. That had a bumper to bumper 8 year 100k mile warranty and all service. It was a pretty good deal.
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