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The Great Hybrid Battery Debate
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PF Flyer
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News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
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Toshiba says 80% in 1 minute, and 80-to-100% in the next minute.
My non-hybrid gas car only goes 300 miles...350 if I run bone dry (which i don't). A.C. Propulsion's lithium car can go 250 miles.
By "same capability" I was referring to the fact that you could, using Toshiba's new battery, drive an EV across the country in just 2-3 days... same as a gas car.
troy
1. Heat management. A laptop battery usually has 6 or 8 cells. The Escape Hybrid (for example) has hundreds. If you are dumping that much current in at once, it's going to get very warm in there...
2. Current required to recharge. In order to safely charge a battery that size, you'd have to charge the cells (or modules of cells) in parallel. It can be done but will require a lot of current. This would raise issue (3)...
3. Safety concerns. Current crop of production hybrids have the HV battery circuit completely sealed and isolated from the driver. In order to be able to grid charge a vehicle you'd have to have an exposed connector that has direct battery connections. Still, if they think they can pump compressed hydrogen safely (to say nothing of gasoline) this should be surmountable.
4. Battery lifespan. Laptop owners are more or less willing to put up with replacing their laptop battery every couple of years. I don't think that will fly in the automotive world.
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????? There were no charger safety issues with the Ford Ranger EV, Honda EV, GM EV1, or Toyota Rav4 EV.
troy
They discontinued them all with little explanation. Many of the EV-1 leasees wanted to keep them. GM said NO and they are all in a junk yard. Maybe something they did not want us to know.
troy
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I don't think plugging in your car is any more dangerous than plugging in your cell-phone or refrigerator. Just insert the prongs into the holes in the wall. Simple.
troy
I don't believe it is that simple. The EV-1 had a special charger that ran off of 220 volts. If you are going to charge some serious amperage the connections need to be appropriate. It won't be a device you plug into the wall socket for sure.
I am assuming that this is technically possible since an electrical power failure
will eventually happen (Murphy's Law) and I don't want to be stranded with a tank full of gas and a good running engine.
:confuse:
From the reports of cars stopping for no apparent reason, I would say NO it will not operate if any of the major components quit. There are those that have gone a very short distance on the electric motor when the car thought it was out of gas. The HSD is a very complex piece of equipment. It has an on board computer that controls everything. It will stop if you use the wrong kind of oil. And it Will not run if the main battery is discharged.
The Prius won't run very far on just the battery, but the issue here is: will it run without any traction battery? The answer is no, it won't - and it wasn't designed to run that way. My research indicates that the traction battery has to be at least 20% charged or the car won't even start, much less run.
I started the "software trouble" forum not because of numerous failures, but because the Prius is far more complex in terms of computer controls than other cars. I don't suppose the failure rate is any higher than other new models; it is the type of failures that is of interest.
Hope anyone who is concerned about lifetime of the battery sees this and realizes that they are not going to die at 90,000 miles......
Toyota and Honda haven't designed their cars to only last as long as the warranties. Besides, most don't keep their cars for longer than 8 years /100K miles.
In an article I just read in the San Diego Union Tribune: according to the CA DMV, in the state of California the average time a person has the same vehicle is 42 months (before trading or selling it).
All if this questioning the battery is nonsense. The Hybrid technology is nothing new. Toyota produced the first generation Prius in 1997 (for sale in Japan), thus making the Hybrid technology nine years old. Since then they have launched the Hybrid Estima minivan and Crown sedan. Now here in the U.S. you can now purchase a Lexus RX400h, and starting next month a Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Not to mention next years launch of the Lexus GS Hybrid. Look out Ford, Chevy, and Dodge :surprise:. There are rumors of a redesigned bigger Tundra in Hybrid/Diesel in the works for a 07' model, just in time for the Diesel fuel to be refined Jan 1, 2006.
Toyota is dedicated to the Hybrid technology, and with is reputation for reliability and the amount of time spent researching the Hybrid technology. I think you will see 2nd and 3rd owners with them on the road for many miles, just like the every other Toyota. You will hear people say as they do now "It just keeps running".
Honda batteries have a top limit of 80%. Good. No overcharging.
But Honda allows the battery to dip to 20%...typically defined as "empty" in most EVs, cellphones, etcetera. So every time you discharge your Insight or Civic or Accord to 0 bars, you're damaging the battery.
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No wonder Honda has been forced to replace several insight batteries at 90-100,000 miles. Honda made the mistake of allowing the battery to discharge to 20%...thereby damaging it, and prematurely requiring replacement.
IMHO.
troy
Electrical Engineer
You said you researched it so I'm curious where you got that information. I've looked through the IEEE Explore for reviewed articles on this topic and I haven't found anything to substantiate it. I've seen a white paper (not a reviewed article) on Lithium Hydride (different technology I know but there doesn't seem to be a lot published where I'm looking) that claims that depth of discharge is not a factor for them - only the cumulative amount of charge/discharge with over-heating and over-charging carrying additional life penalties.
The best way to reduce the risk of reverse charging is to never let the battery drain down very far. Thus the programming in the computers of these cars to use only a narrow range of the total capacity of their batteries (e.g. 40-80 percent in the Prius).
Chuck
Kona, HI
Resist the urge to throw in the personal comments please.
differences of oppinion ......Those for the hybrid technology and those anti-hybrid. I myself being of sound mind, have come to embrace my '04 Prius. Truely I defend the "car". but I, like many of us, have endured the slings & arrows of the "nay-sayers". We have fared very well. Knowing the truth has set us free. Free to withstand the absurd & ludicrous unsubstantiated comments of the nay-sayers and hope that those new to the site will see the truths and see through the non-truths. So....let them dish out their best shots. We will endure it just as well as the "Hybrids" will endure doing so well in the light of near three buck a gallon gas. So...enjoy the bantor and appreciate the truth for the "hybrids will stand the test of time and criticism. Nuff said.
Railroadjames(cars can be practical)(and efficient)
There's no PROVING to be done about anything here.
But let's leave this topic to the discussion of the Great Battery Debate!
If your mileage dropped that much with the same type of driving. I think you have a problem. Don't let the dealer give you the run around. I don't think it will just get better. Make sure they have done all the updates to the computer system. Ask them how they can tell if the battery has a problem. You are kind of in a bad position with only one dealer in Kona. Is the dealer in Hilo the same company? You might try them if you cannot get any satisfaction from the Kona dealer. Good luck, and keep us posted.
A hybrid owner and poster on another forum had the IMA batteries in their HCH tested around 70,000 miles and they were still functioning at 96% of original capacity. You don't even have to start worrying until it gets below 75%. At 4% depletion per 70,000 miles, that means you wouldn't enter the danger zone until 420,000 miles!
Simply put. This could be the bettering of a great mouse-trap. I like that. Don't you.
Railroadjames(Remember...Friends don't let friends drive "SUV's")
P.S. After the H-1 Hummer and the H-2 Hummer comes the H-3 Hummer...Do you suppose they'll finally get wise and come up with an H-4 Hybrid Hummer? Could happen!! :confuse:
One more thing to mention tho....When first I ventured into buying a Prius Hybrid I DID have some concerns and even a few reservations. I can truthfully tell you that my total confidence has been achieved. My Prius, simply put, delivers on all expectations. I've been averaging close to 54 mpgs. That aint bad.
Railroadjames
I hope we didn't make a mistake I know I will get half the mpg of Prius, but maybe one day they will find a way to improve it like your Prius!