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The Great Hybrid Battery Debate

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Comments

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Big difference in the amount of energy needed to "fill up" a laptop and the battery packs in cars. Probably some safety issue as well!

    PF Flyer
    Host
    News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "Gasoline cars can keep going until they run out of fuel, which is generally around 400-500 miles. I'll grant you the similarities, though, since 1 minute isn't a bad recharge time. However, I'm wondering if that new technology would charge the entire pack that rapidly. "

    .
    Toshiba says 80% in 1 minute, and 80-to-100% in the next minute.

    My non-hybrid gas car only goes 300 miles...350 if I run bone dry (which i don't). A.C. Propulsion's lithium car can go 250 miles.

    By "same capability" I was referring to the fact that you could, using Toshiba's new battery, drive an EV across the country in just 2-3 days... same as a gas car.

    troy
  • stevewastevewa Member Posts: 203
    The issues I can see cropping up in such an application are:

    1. Heat management. A laptop battery usually has 6 or 8 cells. The Escape Hybrid (for example) has hundreds. If you are dumping that much current in at once, it's going to get very warm in there...

    2. Current required to recharge. In order to safely charge a battery that size, you'd have to charge the cells (or modules of cells) in parallel. It can be done but will require a lot of current. This would raise issue (3)...

    3. Safety concerns. Current crop of production hybrids have the HV battery circuit completely sealed and isolated from the driver. In order to be able to grid charge a vehicle you'd have to have an exposed connector that has direct battery connections. Still, if they think they can pump compressed hydrogen safely (to say nothing of gasoline) this should be surmountable.

    4. Battery lifespan. Laptop owners are more or less willing to put up with replacing their laptop battery every couple of years. I don't think that will fly in the automotive world.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Not that it eventually might not happen, but the difference in scale of recharging a laptop battery vs an automotive battery pack is huge. Still, the concept is an interesting starting point!
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "3 . Safety concerns. Current crop of production hybrids have the HV battery circuit completely sealed and isolated from the driver. In order to be able to grid charge a vehicle you'd have to have an exposed connector that has direct battery connections."

    .

    ????? There were no charger safety issues with the Ford Ranger EV, Honda EV, GM EV1, or Toyota Rav4 EV.

    troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There were no charger safety issues with the Ford Ranger EV, Honda EV, GM EV1, or Toyota Rav4 EV.

    They discontinued them all with little explanation. Many of the EV-1 leasees wanted to keep them. GM said NO and they are all in a junk yard. Maybe something they did not want us to know.
  • stevewastevewa Member Posts: 203
    I was thinking more in terms of emergency responder concerns than driver concerns.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    With any alternative fuel source I would not venture too far from my source. Read where one person had to be towed in their CNG Honda Civic when they ran out of gas. Not something I would want to be bothered by.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    I don't think plugging in your car is any more dangerous than plugging in your cell-phone or refrigerator. Just insert the prongs into the holes, in the wall. Simple.

    troy
  • stevewastevewa Member Posts: 203
    I don't think so either. But in a crash there's at least one less layer of protection between the first responder and the high voltages.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    STEVEWA WROTE: "3. Safety concerns. In order to be able to grid charge a vehicle you'd have to have an exposed connector that has direct battery connections."

    .

    I don't think plugging in your car is any more dangerous than plugging in your cell-phone or refrigerator. Just insert the prongs into the holes in the wall. Simple.

    troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just insert the prongs into the holes in the wall. Simple.

    I don't believe it is that simple. The EV-1 had a special charger that ran off of 220 volts. If you are going to charge some serious amperage the connections need to be appropriate. It won't be a device you plug into the wall socket for sure.
  • stevewastevewa Member Posts: 203
    You're missing my point. It's not about the charger. It's about the car. You've got a place to plug into on the car, where the battery voltage will appear. In the event of a crash that connector could be damaged resulting in applying battery voltage to the sheetmetal of the car. Because there's no need to bring battery voltage to a user-accessible location in a hybrid, they can more effectively insulate anything carrying battery voltage from the rest of the vehicle.
  • dbrusieedbrusiee Member Posts: 5
    Has anyone driven their Prius without the electric motor functioning?

    I am assuming that this is technically possible since an electrical power failure
    will eventually happen (Murphy's Law) and I don't want to be stranded with a tank full of gas and a good running engine.

    :confuse:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Has anyone driven their Prius without the electric motor functioning?

    From the reports of cars stopping for no apparent reason, I would say NO it will not operate if any of the major components quit. There are those that have gone a very short distance on the electric motor when the car thought it was out of gas. The HSD is a very complex piece of equipment. It has an on board computer that controls everything. It will stop if you use the wrong kind of oil. And it Will not run if the main battery is discharged.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The car call for 5-30 and people have put in other types with no problems. Don't believe everything you read. The software glitches are far and few. The Prius has an exemplary record so far based on numerous studies. Can't say that for many of the German car makers.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't think we really answered his question about the car being able to move if the engine still runs and the electric motor quits. I don't think the car is as dependable as many have lead us to believe. We will not know for a couple more years. Too many people have been stranded on the road with the Prius. A new car just quitting is unacceptable to me. It would be at the dealers and I would be getting my money back. I don't care what brand or who made it. These are not isolated incidents. At least a dozen people have had this happen on this board. Even one service manager admitted it was a problem. This is a software not a battery issue so we should move it to the proper thread.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The car can move on its own in the event you run out of fuel. Quite a few posts about this on the Prius forums. That's a neat feature, but one I would never like to try! As far as the Prius stranding people, I do believe there are some isolated incidents regarding software issues. I know two people directly and six indirectly that have a 2nd gen Prius and none have had any problems. This is by no means scientific, but overall, I stand by my assertion that the Prius has less problems than other new cars.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "The car can move on its own in the event you run out of fuel. "

    The Prius won't run very far on just the battery, but the issue here is: will it run without any traction battery? The answer is no, it won't - and it wasn't designed to run that way. My research indicates that the traction battery has to be at least 20% charged or the car won't even start, much less run.

    I started the "software trouble" forum not because of numerous failures, but because the Prius is far more complex in terms of computer controls than other cars. I don't suppose the failure rate is any higher than other new models; it is the type of failures that is of interest.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    There is a user on another unmentionable forum who has a 2003 Civic Hybrid he bought used at 128,000 miles and his car still has the original hybrid battery. He has put 3,000 miles on the car, so it sits at 131,000 today.

    Hope anyone who is concerned about lifetime of the battery sees this and realizes that they are not going to die at 90,000 miles...... :D
  • majors2000majors2000 Member Posts: 4
    Exactly....

    Toyota and Honda haven't designed their cars to only last as long as the warranties. Besides, most don't keep their cars for longer than 8 years /100K miles.

    In an article I just read in the San Diego Union Tribune: according to the CA DMV, in the state of California the average time a person has the same vehicle is 42 months (before trading or selling it).

    All if this questioning the battery is nonsense. The Hybrid technology is nothing new. Toyota produced the first generation Prius in 1997 (for sale in Japan), thus making the Hybrid technology nine years old. Since then they have launched the Hybrid Estima minivan and Crown sedan. Now here in the U.S. you can now purchase a Lexus RX400h, and starting next month a Toyota Highlander Hybrid. Not to mention next years launch of the Lexus GS Hybrid. Look out Ford, Chevy, and Dodge :surprise:. There are rumors of a redesigned bigger Tundra in Hybrid/Diesel in the works for a 07' model, just in time for the Diesel fuel to be refined Jan 1, 2006.

    Toyota is dedicated to the Hybrid technology, and with is reputation for reliability and the amount of time spent researching the Hybrid technology. I think you will see 2nd and 3rd owners with them on the road for many miles, just like the every other Toyota. You will hear people say as they do now "It just keeps running".
    :D
  • andrelaplumeandrelaplume Member Posts: 934
    A host pointed me here....w/out al l the gory details...I usually keep my car 7 years. It appears the batteries in a Prius could last this long. But what of the resale value of my car?. At least a Corolla would be worth a few $K......will the Prius have any monetary value or be ready to be recycled itself? I think the prices need to come down a bit before these suckers become fully accepted on the road...though the oil companies are adjusting their prices for their increased gas milage...or am I just pessimistic? Also I am a bit disapointed that gas is still involved in these cars of the future!
  • sinepmansinepman Member Posts: 137
    First off, these are NOT future cars. They're merely a segway to the next level. What is that level? No one knows for sure. What will the car be worth 7 yrs from now? That depends on the price of what the battery replacements (if at all needed) will be. It's a crap shoot that many folks are willing to take. I intend to take the plunge soon too. I have faith in this technology.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Toyota keeps the battery between 40-80% full, in order to avoid the damage caused by under-or-overcharging.

    Honda batteries have a top limit of 80%. Good. No overcharging.

    But Honda allows the battery to dip to 20%...typically defined as "empty" in most EVs, cellphones, etcetera. So every time you discharge your Insight or Civic or Accord to 0 bars, you're damaging the battery.

    .

    No wonder Honda has been forced to replace several insight batteries at 90-100,000 miles. Honda made the mistake of allowing the battery to discharge to 20%...thereby damaging it, and prematurely requiring replacement.

    IMHO.

    troy
    Electrical Engineer
  • eagleieaglei Member Posts: 2
    I have a 2001 Prius that I have around 132,000 miles on right now. I recently stopped in at a dealer to check the new Prius' out and to find out what I could get for trade in... I am being offered $10,000 from the dealer. Not too shabby for a used vehicle trade in....
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    That's excellent!! Imagine what you could get for it privately!! Are you going to get the new one?
  • eagleieaglei Member Posts: 2
    Absolutely! I am sold on the Prius. I drive so much with my business that I calculated in the time that I've had it, I've saved over $5000 in gas. (Previously I drove a Lexus)
  • rx400_ownerrx400_owner Member Posts: 59
    "NiMH Battery chemistry is weird. If you exceed 90%, or drop below 60%, you stress the battery and cause damage. That's why pure electric cars have to replace every 100,000 miles... they damage their battery from overcharging/emptying. "

    You said you researched it so I'm curious where you got that information. I've looked through the IEEE Explore for reviewed articles on this topic and I haven't found anything to substantiate it. I've seen a white paper (not a reviewed article) on Lithium Hydride (different technology I know but there doesn't seem to be a lot published where I'm looking) that claims that depth of discharge is not a factor for them - only the cumulative amount of charge/discharge with over-heating and over-charging carrying additional life penalties.
  • stevewastevewa Member Posts: 203
    The biggest risk with any series-wired battery is reverse charging one or more cells. Once that happens it's very hard to get things working right again, as the reverse charged cell tends to reverse charge its neighbors.

    The best way to reduce the risk of reverse charging is to never let the battery drain down very far. Thus the programming in the computers of these cars to use only a narrow range of the total capacity of their batteries (e.g. 40-80 percent in the Prius).
  • punawelepunawele Member Posts: 5
    Prius purchased in October 2004, it is a 2005 model, so they say. I live on the side of a mountain. When I drive up 3.5 miles the battery symbol quickly goes from blue to purple and the gas engine has to assist me up the hill. On the way down, I get a full green indication on the screen. When I come home up the hill I use a good bit of the green, then down the hill to home it fills to green, but in the morning when I go to leave, the green has turned to blue. I don't think the battery is holding a charge over night. Some one was speaking of 10,000 total charges and discharges for the life of the battery. I am sure that each time I leave home and fully discharge the battery, I am chalking up one less of the 10,000 charge/discharge cycles. And, of course, the Toyota dealership has no answer to my questions. What can anyone tell me about this situation? And, because I am not driving on level ground, I only got 36.7mpg on the last tank of about 327 miles...not good.
    Chuck
    Kona, HI
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The Prius computer only allows a certain percentage of the battery to be used. When you are seeing two purple bars, there is ~40% left in the battery. When you see full green you are at ~80%. The computer will not allow the battery to go out of this range. Ostensibly, you are not discharging and charging the battery on your jaunts over the hill. As to the mileage, what you are getting is consistent with the type of driving you are doing. I've been to the Kona area and know that there are quite a few hills around there. I suggest you take a ride around the Big Island and go about 40 miles or so. I can assure you that you will be in the mid 40's on mileage. Make sure your tire pressure is correct too.
  • punawelepunawele Member Posts: 5
    When I come home, down hill, the battery screen shows full green. In the morning it is in the blue. Does this battery not hold a charge overnight? Is this normal behavior? So, of course, going up the hill, the gas engine helps to make it up (lowering the gas mileage) and to keep the charge of the battery at 40% power, right? And, I got 45mpg when I first got the car.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Not really sure why. Believe it or not, I read that the optimum place for the battery to be is in the upper blue range. I doubt you have any battery issues. To allay any fears you may have, mention it to the dealer when you go in for service.
  • punawelepunawele Member Posts: 5
    Thanks for your input. I feel much more confident that I did before.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There has to be a way to test that battery for peak charge when it is in the green. I would suspect a battery problem. There have been batteries changed out here in Victoria. Toyota would like to keep that a secret. Don't let the dealer put you off till the warranty is gone.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    That's odd.... maybe it's only Victoria batteries. Why haven't there been any changeouts in the US? Again with the Toyota consipiracy theories?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You always seem so sure of yourself. You were wrong about the bladder problem and you are wrong about the battery problems. The cab driver had no reason to lie to me when he said they have had two batteries changed out. Empress cab has about 20 Prius in service. They would be the ones to talk to. If you are really interested in the truth. Toyota has all the reason in the world to keep hybrid problems under wraps. Figure it out for yourself.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I don't doubt the changeout and I don't doubt that ONE person had a problem with their bladder. Your problem is that if it's one, it's many. Totally not true! Every car built will have a certain failure rate of its components. Toyota just happens to have a LOW failure rate and VW and GM have high rates. Your assertion that Toyota "controls" the news regarding this issue is absurd. You also claim that CR is paid off. You're the one that has a problem. Your obsession with hybrids is quite obvious. Jealousy can be a STRONG emotion.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    That's enough personal interaction, thank you. Let's stick to the topic and avoid talking about each other, OK?
    Resist the urge to throw in the personal comments please.
  • sinepmansinepman Member Posts: 137
    Do what I do----- SCROLL past his posts. Don't let obnoxious posts ruin your day.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Yep, the undocumented IGNORE feature is a great way to keep stress levels down :)
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Since joining this "HYBRID" Discussion many moons ago I've noticed occasional
    differences of oppinion ......Those for the hybrid technology and those anti-hybrid. I myself being of sound mind, have come to embrace my '04 Prius. Truely I defend the "car". but I, like many of us, have endured the slings & arrows of the "nay-sayers". We have fared very well. Knowing the truth has set us free. Free to withstand the absurd & ludicrous unsubstantiated comments of the nay-sayers and hope that those new to the site will see the truths and see through the non-truths. So....let them dish out their best shots. We will endure it just as well as the "Hybrids" will endure doing so well in the light of near three buck a gallon gas. So...enjoy the bantor and appreciate the truth for the "hybrids will stand the test of time and criticism. Nuff said.
    Railroadjames(cars can be practical)(and efficient)
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Therein lies the problem. This shouldn't be about "I'm right, you're wrong". It's about discussion and debate. Will hybrids take over the world? Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I don't know. But I would bet my bottom dollar that something comes along (eventually) that will be better than hybrids as we know them, and then the new kids on the block will be calling out the naysayers as well :D

    There's no PROVING to be done about anything here.

    But let's leave this topic to the discussion of the Great Battery Debate!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    First off welcome to the forum. I am sorry my friends and I got off on a tangent.

    If your mileage dropped that much with the same type of driving. I think you have a problem. Don't let the dealer give you the run around. I don't think it will just get better. Make sure they have done all the updates to the computer system. Ask them how they can tell if the battery has a problem. You are kind of in a bad position with only one dealer in Kona. Is the dealer in Hilo the same company? You might try them if you cannot get any satisfaction from the Kona dealer. Good luck, and keep us posted.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    All this battery hoo-ha paranoia is so far turning out to be just that - Paranoia !!

    A hybrid owner and poster on another forum had the IMA batteries in their HCH tested around 70,000 miles and they were still functioning at 96% of original capacity. You don't even have to start worrying until it gets below 75%. At 4% depletion per 70,000 miles, that means you wouldn't enter the danger zone until 420,000 miles!
  • molokaimolokai Member Posts: 313
    WOW... that's incredible. I wonder if the IMA batteries have a shallow cycle like the Prius batteries. I would think so. I tell you, the Japanese continue to amaze me with their ingenious engineering.
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    This past week there were two seperate groupsof scientists and/or researchers that, by simply changing the battery sys. and modifying the charging sys, they were able to attain a fantastic "MPG" level in the area of 160-190 miles to the gallon. What can be said for this as I see it is....Just around the corner could be an add-on kit to bring about this fantastic level of milage to a gallon of gas.
    Simply put. This could be the bettering of a great mouse-trap. I like that. Don't you.
    Railroadjames(Remember...Friends don't let friends drive "SUV's")

    P.S. After the H-1 Hummer and the H-2 Hummer comes the H-3 Hummer...Do you suppose they'll finally get wise and come up with an H-4 Hybrid Hummer? Could happen!! :confuse:
  • billygarrettbillygarrett Member Posts: 2
    Hi.Do you have a URL link for that story? :)
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Sorry ....No Got!! It was on ABC Network Evening News last week. The other one was included in NBC's "DATELINE" segment a little over a week ago. You might find something on their websites tho.
    One more thing to mention tho....When first I ventured into buying a Prius Hybrid I DID have some concerns and even a few reservations. I can truthfully tell you that my total confidence has been achieved. My Prius, simply put, delivers on all expectations. I've been averaging close to 54 mpgs. That aint bad.
    Railroadjames :)
  • billygarrettbillygarrett Member Posts: 2
    Ok. Thanks anyway. Actually I had almost bought a Prius when my son discovered the imminent launch of Lexus RX 400h Hybrid, so we raided the piggy bank and pick it up in Newcastle on Thursday 1st Sept!
    I hope we didn't make a mistake :) I know I will get half the mpg of Prius, but maybe one day they will find a way to improve it like your Prius!
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