Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

fintail

Beat me to it. Lease. These are cars you lease new and buy CPO lease return.

That must be a wholesale bare bones trade in value, or the car had massive mileage or something though, you won't find it on a lot for that.

jmonroe1

28firefighter said:

jmonroe1 said:

stickguy said:

speaking of depreciation, I just read the long term test recap on an MB E450 wagon. On thing they list is a depreciation chart. Eye popping 1st year. MSRP on their unit (loaded with options) was $89k. value after 1 year, $48K. So calculating $41,000 hit for 1 year. Ouch. Though I assume that was based on their high miles, but still, ouch. At least only supposed to drop to $41k after 2 years!

Are REAL Benz owners concerned with depreciation?

jmonroe

No. Because they lease.

I always thought of leasers as renters not owners.

jmonroe

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

speaking of depreciation, I just read the long term test recap on an MB E450 wagon. On thing they list is a depreciation chart. Eye popping 1st year. MSRP on their unit (loaded with options) was $89k. value after 1 year, $48K. So calculating $41,000 hit for 1 year. Ouch. Though I assume that was based on their high miles, but still, ouch. At least only supposed to drop to $41k after 2 years!

That’s incredible. Why would anyone buy new when they could get it a year old for half price? Also what must be wrong with the quality for it to take a nosedive like that?

28firefighter

jmonroe1 said:

28firefighter said:

jmonroe1 said:

stickguy said:

speaking of depreciation, I just read the long term test recap on an MB E450 wagon. On thing they list is a depreciation chart. Eye popping 1st year. MSRP on their unit (loaded with options) was $89k. value after 1 year, $48K. So calculating $41,000 hit for 1 year. Ouch. Though I assume that was based on their high miles, but still, ouch. At least only supposed to drop to $41k after 2 years!

Are REAL Benz owners concerned with depreciation?

jmonroe

No. Because they lease.

I always thought of leasers as renters not owners.

jmonroe

Potato. Potatoe.

jmonroe1

oldfarmer50 said:

stickguy said:

speaking of depreciation, I just read the long term test recap on an MB E450 wagon. On thing they list is a depreciation chart. Eye popping 1st year. MSRP on their unit (loaded with options) was $89k. value after 1 year, $48K. So calculating $41,000 hit for 1 year. Ouch. Though I assume that was based on their high miles, but still, ouch. At least only supposed to drop to $41k after 2 years!

That’s incredible. Why would anyone buy new when they could get it a year old for half price? Also what must be wrong with the quality for it to take a nosedive like that?

Maybe the badge shows signs of tarnishing at the one year mark.

jmonroe

fintail

The cars are arguably overpriced when new, with a relatively set price. Used car prices are more of a free market, with the market deciding rather than the maker.

Not sure I would want to "own" a steadily depreciating asset. Own it when you get it at a realistic price. If you buy new, you're going to want to keep it for a decade to make the numbers work, not good for people who get bored.

jmonroe1

28firefighter said:

jmonroe1 said:

28firefighter said:

jmonroe1 said:

stickguy said:

speaking of depreciation, I just read the long term test recap on an MB E450 wagon. On thing they list is a depreciation chart. Eye popping 1st year. MSRP on their unit (loaded with options) was $89k. value after 1 year, $48K. So calculating $41,000 hit for 1 year. Ouch. Though I assume that was based on their high miles, but still, ouch. At least only supposed to drop to $41k after 2 years!

Are REAL Benz owners concerned with depreciation?

jmonroe

No. Because they lease.

I always thought of leasers as renters not owners.

jmonroe

Potato. Potatoe.

Not really. When you own a car you have a title at the end of the agreed to term. When you lease a car you have a fist full of cancelled checks and no car in the garage unless you start the process again. I don't get bored quickly so buying suits me. Although I know if it weren't for leasing most people wouldn't have a car in their garage and dealers would be pretty much extinct.

jmonroe

fintail

Without leasers, there are no nice late model used cars for bargain hunters

I told myself my last car was going to be the keeper, but I got a little bored and wowed by new tech. Now I tell myself the current car will be the keeper. Maybe this time?

cdnpinhead

The proper term is possessors -- they don't own and mostly don't drive (much), but take pleasure in possessing the thing. Go figure.

jmonroe1

fintail said:

Without leasers, there are no nice late model used cars for bargain hunters

I told myself my last car was going to be the keeper, but I got a little bored and wowed by new tech. Now I tell myself the current car will be the keeper. Maybe this time?

And then you have the odd ball like Mrs. j's 2018 Subie with 7200 miles on it that we got last April. The previous owner must have gotten bored with it and traded it in for a Porche. The Car Fax showed a Porche dealer had it before he sold it to a used car dealer friend of his who in turn sold it to us. I agree most one year old cream puffs don't take this route to the second owner but it happens just not very often. In the past when I bought used cars most were 3 years old and bought from a private party but that was back in the 70's and 80's. The car biz has changed a lot since then.

jmonroe

28firefighter

I lease cars at a payment and total running cost that is quite literally impossible to achieve buying, even if I bought one car and kept it 10 years. Maybe if I bought a corolla I could come close. Plus, maintenance is usually included, the car is under warranty, and it satisfies my constant desire to try different cars.

Fixed running costs, cheaper than owning, scratches my CCBA itch. Check, check, check.

Not for everyone, but certainly has eliminated my desire to own anything except my ZHP, which isn’t a DD

stickguy

Well that unit did have 40,000 miles in it. But still impressive.

stickguy

And leasing is just alternate way to finance. Buy new, put nothing down on a long loan with cheap payment, and after 3 years, probably have no equity either. On the lease, you have a fixed BIN price from the beginning.

I just look at it as making a big down payment, and financing for 3 years. With the DP deferred until the end! And if you decide not to make the DP, you can just “sell” it for what you have in it, and walk away.

corvette

andres3 said:

corvette said:

28firefighter said:

There is a sizable gap in the history of that car in the CarFax. Over a year since an update and 17k miles ago.

I bet it has been smacked.

Some areas must update more slowly than others - my VW had a bad CarFax before the body shop was finished working on it.

Do you have more carfax checks for free?

Sadly, I do not.

nyccarguy

28firefighter said:

I lease cars at a payment and total running cost that is quite literally impossible to achieve buying, even if I bought one car and kept it 10 years. Maybe if I bought a corolla I could come close. Plus, maintenance is usually included, the car is under warranty, and it satisfies my constant desire to try different cars.

Fixed running costs, cheaper than owning, scratches my CCBA itch. Check, check, check.

Not for everyone, but certainly has eliminated my desire to own anything except my ZHP, which isn’t a DD

+1

I own 2 of our vehicles and lease 1. My wife and I each do a lot of driving (close to or over 20K miles per year). The leasing works for us because it fixes our depreciation costs. I took out a 2 year/15K mile per year lease on my truck. I'm going to most likely hit 15,000 miles soon (with 5 months to go). Yes I'm planning on getting hit with an over mileage charge at the end of the lease.

Some of the lease deals out there are sick. The deals are ONLY good if you like the car. Remember, you still have to live with it & drive it for 2 - 3 years. Besides my Tacoma & @corvette's Tundra, @qbrozen got a phenomenal deal on his wife's X2, @tjc78 is happy as a clam with his Volvo S60 just to name a few deals.

Our Pilot is a vehicle that has traditionally held it's value well. At the time we bought, the lease program wasn't all that great (it is MUCH better now).

I'm sure at some point residuals will take a big hit and I'll have to re-evaluate my position. I'm also very interested in owning a Tesla at some point as they seem to hold their value better than comparable vehicles in their class.

mjfloyd1

Let me get this straight.

So if you buy or lease a vehicle, you should make sure that you actually like it BEFORE you lease or buy it?

stickguy

In concept, but there are people that only shop the lease price on paper. I guess that’s all that really matters to them, and they expect to just learn to live (tolerate?) the car while they have it!

corvette

I had actually never driven a Tundra prior to taking delivery of the one I leased, but have driven other full size trucks and SUVs, and was able to glean from reading reviews that the Tundra wouldn’t be all that different.

Michaell

stickguy said:

In concept, but there are people that only shop the lease price on paper. I guess that’s all that really matters to them, and they expect to just learn to live (tolerate?) the car while they have it!

And, since part of my responsibilities as a moderator are to help folks with their leasing questions, I can cite many examples of folks who shop the deal, and not the car, and end up not liking what they've chosen.

Had that happen with a guy who leased a Jaguar F-Type. Shopped for quite a while before scoring an absolutely killer lease deal.

He came back onto the forums a month or so later, complaining that his car wasn't fast enough.

tjc78

He came back onto the forums a month or so later, complaining that his car wasn't fast enough.

When did @roadburner lease a Jag?

nyccarguy

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

In concept, but there are people that only shop the lease price on paper. I guess that’s all that really matters to them, and they expect to just learn to live (tolerate?) the car while they have it!

And, since part of my responsibilities as a moderator are to help folks with their leasing questions, I can cite many examples of folks who shop the deal, and not the car, and end up not liking what they've chosen.

Had that happen with a guy who leased a Jaguar F-Type. Shopped for quite a while before scoring an absolutely killer lease deal.

He came back onto the forums a month or so later, complaining that his car wasn't fast enough.

I never pegged @roadburner as the Jaguar type (pun intended)

tjc78

stickguy said:

In concept, but there are people that only shop the lease price on paper. I guess that’s all that really matters to them, and they expect to just learn to live (tolerate?) the car while they have it!

I did that with the 2017 Elantra. It was the cheapest just first payment DAS in the segment so that’s what I got. It wasn’t driven enough to warrant any additional expense.

28firefighter

mjfloyd1 said:

Let me get this straight.

So if you buy or lease a vehicle, you should make sure that you actually like it BEFORE you lease or buy it?

In theory.

Michaell

tjc78 said:

stickguy said:

In concept, but there are people that only shop the lease price on paper. I guess that’s all that really matters to them, and they expect to just learn to live (tolerate?) the car while they have it!

I did that with the 2017 Elantra. It was the cheapest just first payment DAS in the segment so that’s what I got. It wasn’t driven enough to warrant any additional expense.

I did that with the 2013 Elantra GT I leased. I wanted a hatchback, test drove all the choices in my price range, and the E-GT was the car that had the most features, fit me the best, and had the lowest lease payment.

When I traded in the E-GT for the Jetta two months early, the VW dealer cut me a really good deal, given that the Hyundai was over miles, had two payments left, and had a damaged bumper. I could have gotten another Hyundai, or a Toyota, or a Honda, but I liked the VW the best, and the good lease deal was icing on the cake.

roadburner

I almost never lease and instead buy CPO cars. Depreciation is my very good friend. For example, I got my wife's X1 for less than a new base Escape.

ab348

Michaell said:

When I traded in the E-GT for the Jetta two months early, the VW dealer cut me a really good deal, given that the Hyundai was over miles, had two payments left, and had a damaged bumper. I could have gotten another Hyundai, or a Toyota, or a Honda, but I liked the VW the best, and the good lease deal was icing on the cake.

I must have missed this at the time - how did you "trade in" a leased car of another make and get damage/mileage charges covered to boot?

qbrozen

I go back and forth (obviously). I've become addicted to cheap leasing, but some cars require I purchase them, like my Charger. Basically whatever the cheapest ownership route is.

Michaell

ab348 said:

Michaell said:

When I traded in the E-GT for the Jetta two months early, the VW dealer cut me a really good deal, given that the Hyundai was over miles, had two payments left, and had a damaged bumper. I could have gotten another Hyundai, or a Toyota, or a Honda, but I liked the VW the best, and the good lease deal was icing on the cake.

I must have missed this at the time - how did you "trade in" a leased car of another make and get damage/mileage charges covered to boot?

The dealer and I split the difference - between the mileage, the remaining payments and the damage, we figured about $2000 total. We added $1000 to the cap cost on the Jetta, and they ate the remaining $1000 on their trade in value.

Waiting two extra months really wasn't going to save me that much money - maybe $10-12/month. The Jetta had some good lease programs and incentives at the time, so the net payment on it was only a few dollars a month higher.

I didn't "terminate" the lease, I traded it in. The dealer closed out the lease, and I suspect they may have lost money on the transaction, based on what the car was worth when they priced it for resale. But, not my problem.

pensfan83

Leasing the Tacoma made a lot of fiscal and flexibility sense for us but was a gamble for other reasons. I've driven them but the wife never did however she was onboard as long as it wasn't a manual so she could drive it in a pinch if needed. As it turns out she likes driving it more than just in a pinch so it's worked out well for us.

fintail

YOLO. Hearses don't have luggage racks, and with the widening socio-economic chasm, it makes it easier for people to live a little.

cdnpinhead said:

The proper term is possessors -- they don't own and mostly don't drive (much), but take pleasure in possessing the thing. Go figure.

fintail

Did it depreciate much at all? Around these parts, a year old Subie will probably have an asking price $1000 less than a new one.

Cars age a lot better than during the malaise era, too. To paraphrase a saying, a 3 year old car today is better than a new car x years ago.

jmonroe1 said:

And then you have the odd ball like Mrs. j's 2018 Subie with 7200 miles on it that we got last April. The previous owner must have gotten bored with it and traded it in for a Porche. The Car Fax showed a Porche dealer had it before he sold it to a used car dealer friend of his who in turn sold it to us. I agree most one year old cream puffs don't take this route to the second owner but it happens just not very often. In the past when I bought used cars most were 3 years old and bought from a private party but that was back in the 70's and 80's. The car biz has changed a lot since then.

jmonroe

andres3

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

In concept, but there are people that only shop the lease price on paper. I guess that’s all that really matters to them, and they expect to just learn to live (tolerate?) the car while they have it!

And, since part of my responsibilities as a moderator are to help folks with their leasing questions, I can cite many examples of folks who shop the deal, and not the car, and end up not liking what they've chosen.

Had that happen with a guy who leased a Jaguar F-Type. Shopped for quite a while before scoring an absolutely killer lease deal.

He came back onto the forums a month or so later, complaining that his car wasn't fast enough.

Slow and cheap do tend to correlate. As does fast and expensive.

Michaell

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

In concept, but there are people that only shop the lease price on paper. I guess that’s all that really matters to them, and they expect to just learn to live (tolerate?) the car while they have it!

And, since part of my responsibilities as a moderator are to help folks with their leasing questions, I can cite many examples of folks who shop the deal, and not the car, and end up not liking what they've chosen.

Had that happen with a guy who leased a Jaguar F-Type. Shopped for quite a while before scoring an absolutely killer lease deal.

He came back onto the forums a month or so later, complaining that his car wasn't fast enough.

Slow and cheap do tend to correlate. As does fast and expensive.

I don't remember which model he originally leased, but I'm not sure I would classify any F-Type as slow.

andres3

https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/1411809?utm_campaign=targeted-price_drop&utm_medium=customer-retention&utm_source=mkto-email&utm_term=recommendations&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWXprNE1Ea3hNV1ZoWlRFNSIsInQiOiI4OWc2UDlnQVhCNCtGOEVGNzQrMmozTUVUckg2NFBNTHc4dVRNbjdhWDlSMnBvTXZiYTU2eGdYaG9BNFB5eTBQalMrK0QzYTRyM3RKbno4b2Nza1BneVA4eURLRWFhTG9BOXpzXC9Qb0dUQUlEMEtjMzhQejU3OFVwd0I4dXM5NmIifQ==

Am I the only one that finds this M2 overpriced by a few K? @roadburner (putting aside you don't care for the double clutch transmission)?

tifighter

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1992-mercedes-benz-300sl-7/

fintail

Well bought, the least common factory built R129 in maybe the best color combo.

tifighter

Not bought. Reserve not met.

oldfarmer50

andres3 said:

https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/1411809?utm_campaign=targeted-price_drop&utm_medium=customer-retention&utm_source=mkto-email&utm_term=recommendations&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWXprNE1Ea3hNV1ZoWlRFNSIsInQiOiI4OWc2UDlnQVhCNCtGOEVGNzQrMmozTUVUckg2NFBNTHc4dVRNbjdhWDlSMnBvTXZiYTU2eGdYaG9BNFB5eTBQalMrK0QzYTRyM3RKbno4b2Nza1BneVA4eURLRWFhTG9BOXpzXC9Qb0dUQUlEMEtjMzhQejU3OFVwd0I4dXM5NmIifQ==

Am I the only one that finds this M2 overpriced by a few K? @roadburner (putting aside you don't care for the double clutch transmission)?

EVERY Carvana car is a few K overpriced. You have to pay for those no accident, low miles.

fintail

D'oh. IMO 25K or so is probably all the money for that 300SL right now.

stickguy

I’ve found that on Carvana, when I looked for a car to trade for when selling them mine. Very few respectable deals. One Volvo that was a Great deal last fall but already reserved when I saw it pop up.

tifighter

fintail said:

D'oh. IMO 25K or so is probably all the money for that 300SL right now.

Agreed. Nice car though - rare spec, right color, great condition from a respected shop. Same seller has an early Euro R107 4 speed in blue as well.

fintail

Rough time to try for top dollar on such a car, as the entire market will be stifled a bit. I wonder if they either have a lot into it, or can afford to wait. Maybe if things perk up a bit towards summer they can do better,

107s are undervalued in NA, they fetch a lot more in Europe. Those early two tone cars are interesting, the one that seller has listed is quite pretty, and notice the weak bids. The market likes those a bit less than that particular spec of R129, it seems only the best 560SLs bring big money - I like the early cars, no finicky emissions, small bumpers, the pure design.

tifighter said:

Agreed. Nice car though - rare spec, right color, great condition from a respected shop. Same seller has an early Euro R107 4 speed in blue as well.

tifighter

You might find this late two-tone 560 he has interesting-
https://mercedesheritage.com/free-classifieds-only-classic-mercedes/show-ad?id=1348

explorerx4

When I got a quote from Carvana for my F150 Limited model, it seemed low.
High end trucks just don't seem to be their market.
They do have 1 Platinum for sale, but I'm guessing someone just wanted out of it.
All the others are XL or XLT models.

qbrozen

stickguy said:

I’ve found that on Carvana, when I looked for a car to trade for when selling them mine. Very few respectable deals. One Volvo that was a Great deal last fall but already reserved when I saw it pop up.

I swear it seems like, right now, they have jacked up their prices. Not sure what their game is. They had several decent deals I spotted a while back, now its all just ridiculous. Like a 95k-mile Jeep Patriot for $11k. Whaaaa?!

fintail

Fun stuff, browsed his listings - he has good taste for sure. He might not be too far ahead of the market for that particular SL. It has to be a special order in those colors, never seen that combo before. In my experience, 99% of two tone cars are before 1977 or so. It might take some time to sell, but I bet the buyer is out there somewhere, maybe not insanely far off his asking price.

Back around 2003 or so when I was had a W126 as a DD, I found a late (89 I think) 560SL in the same color combo as my car, DB355 Diamond Blue on grey. Nice 70K mile car, probably could have got it for no more than 14K. But with one hobby car as it is, a third mouth to feed is hard to justify.

Things from his site I like:

This is pretty awesome, knock em out at Radwood

I always liked this two tone

He even has a fintail, a lot of these were sold in SA

One of these replaced my W126, I had the same two tone interior

Another subtle but perfect color combo

tifighter said:

You might find this late two-tone 560 he has interesting-
https://mercedesheritage.com/free-classifieds-only-classic-mercedes/show-ad?id=1348

roadburner

andres3 said:

https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/1411809?utm_campaign=targeted-price_drop&utm_medium=customer-retention&utm_source=mkto-email&utm_term=recommendations&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWXprNE1Ea3hNV1ZoWlRFNSIsInQiOiI4OWc2UDlnQVhCNCtGOEVGNzQrMmozTUVUckg2NFBNTHc4dVRNbjdhWDlSMnBvTXZiYTU2eGdYaG9BNFB5eTBQalMrK0QzYTRyM3RKbno4b2Nza1BneVA4eURLRWFhTG9BOXpzXC9Qb0dUQUlEMEtjMzhQejU3OFVwd0I4dXM5NmIifQ==

Am I the only one that finds this M2 overpriced by a few K? @roadburner (putting aside you don't care for the double clutch transmission)?

Yes; there are lots of 2017s at dealers for the same or lower prices.

xwesx

fintail said:

Rough time to try for top dollar on such a car, as the entire market will be stifled a bit. I wonder if they either have a lot into it, or can afford to wait.

Well, they clearly can afford to wait! Maybe they were just testing to see if the market really was depressed. They thought maybe BaT would be the exception, since they would possibly have a larger "captive" audience.

oldfarmer50

tifighter said:

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1992-mercedes-benz-300sl-7/

Can’t pass emissions tests? Isn’t there some exception for antiques?

jmonroe1

fintail said:

Did it depreciate much at all? Around these parts, a year old Subie will probably have an asking price $1000 less than a new one.

Cars age a lot better than during the malaise era, too. To paraphrase a saying, a 3 year old car today is better than a new car x years ago.

jmonroe1 said:

And then you have the odd ball like Mrs. j's 2018 Subie with 7200 miles on it that we got last April. The previous owner must have gotten bored with it and traded it in for a Porche. The Car Fax showed a Porche dealer had it before he sold it to a used car dealer friend of his who in turn sold it to us. I agree most one year old cream puffs don't take this route to the second owner but it happens just not very often. In the past when I bought used cars most were 3 years old and bought from a private party but that was back in the 70's and 80's. The car biz has changed a lot since then.

jmonroe

I was all set to drive to Holidaysburg PA(@venture's hood) to get a new 2019 Legacy Limited with the 3.6R engine in burgundy over beige which was the ONLY color combo AND engine that I would consider. MSRP was a little over $35,400 but they would sell it for $33,500. I was about to make the maybe 120 mile one way trip when Son #1 found an IDENTICAL 2018 at a very reputable used car dealer about 6 miles from me for $27,200 with 7,200 miles on it. I thought that was a big enough savings so I bought it. But I know what you mean about Subie's holding their value. The very large Subie new car dealership about 3 miles from me had a couple 2017 Legacy Limited's with the 3.6R engine with around 15K miles for just under 30 grand. Those, even if they were the right color combo, wouldn't have been a good deal as far as I was concerned.

jmonroe