Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous

stever

Instead of @corvette reporting the total score, we could make it interesting - @breld vs everyone else.

stickguy

I find it interesting that breld buys as many cars per month as Steve does per decade.

28firefighter

@breld - *bows down* We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

Seriously though, congrats!

breld

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

Ab, if I can keep straight, this is the new toy to replace the ZHP convertible

Exactly right. Mrs. @breld actually didn't like driving the ZHP 'vert.

So, they'll do an 'extended test drive' of the MINI for a while, sell it privately, and move on to something else.

Amirite?

Yup - @stickguy and @michaell are correct. As quickly as we settled into "only" 4 cars for 3 drivers, my wife found this Mini. We've flirted with a Mini Cooper for many years; it all just sort of came together with the right color (my wife's favorite Mini color), low mileage and a good price.

So, even though we didn't necessarily plan on doing so, we simply replaced one fun car with another (coincidentally we sold the ZHP for the exact same price as the cost of the Mini).

The Mini actually has 5 months left on the original bumper-to-bumper warranty - when the finance manager suggested an extended warranty, we just smiled and asked, "Why?"

breld

And thanks all for the kind words!

By the way, when we walked back into the Fiat/Alfa Romeo store to take delivery of the car, the salesperson said "I can start up an Alfa Romeo for you." I honestly thought he was joking that he could start up the paperwork for one of them for me and I replied, "Maybe when I'm ready to trade out of the S4."

He just meant he could start one up so we could hear the engine.

andres3

jpp5862 said:

nyccarguy said:

qbrozen said:

$26k-$28k for the v8 and a hard $28k on the diesel.

Thanks.  The hard $28K on the diesel is interesting given liw has prices and the perception that diesel is dirty (VWs).  

EDIT - WOW!  Holy diesel 2014 GC problems - check engine lights, catalytic converter replacements, software updates, engine replacements.  No thank-you.  Like I said, I'll stick with the HEMI - tried & true V8.

@nyccarguy Where did you find all the problems with the 2014 GC diesel? I've heard of poor reliability but never seen much on it.

I liked my 2011 GC but it was a lemon from day 9. I'm much happier with the Touareg.

I'll never understand the fascination with unreliable vehicles. I guess some people have a greater tolerance for unexpected breakdowns and extremely high running costs. I think I could maintain a Bugatti Chiron or Veyron driven 20K miles a year cheaper than most Chrysler's. Probably get better resale value too.

As for my tolerance for breakdowns, it is very, very, VERY low after dealing with an unreliable car. 1 tow truck trip not caused by an accident would just about hit my limit if under 100,000 miles.

tifighter

It is a @breld world and we are all just driving in it. Congrats!

stickguy

well, it is different when dealing with used cars like this. If you are patient and know what you are doing, can often do fine $ wise. May not exactly make money, but can break even or come close. So over the course of a few years, flipping as you go, overall depreciation might not be much more than if you bought one toy and just held onto it.

I actually like the plan of sticking to equity. That is, when you get bored, buy something new for whatever you can get out of the old car!

qbrozen

As if my browser knew what was being discussed here...
Anybody feeling REALLY lucky??

stickguy

A base 2002 ML would eat me alive. Never mind that beast.

nyccarguy

qbrozen said:

As if my browser knew what was being discussed here...
Anybody feeling REALLY lucky??

Let's accentuate the positives here for a minute:

Hand Built V8 (check)
3 Pointed Star protruding quite prominently through the front grill (check)
AWD (Check)
Relatively stealthy looks compared to today's AMG models (check)

And the not so positive:

Those aftermarket wheels look horrendous
4 previous owners
"interior trim replaced"
"headlights replaced"
"seat or seat upholstery repaired"
"shift linkage adjusted"

@fintail will tell us the good, the bad, and the REALLY ugly about these, won't you pal?

andres3

corvette said:

Sorry to hear that, Michael. Hope you can find something quickly. One month's severance sounds pretty stingy. 

Try no severance (that's zero/zilch) after 7-1/4 years with the same company, in October of 2009. In a way they gave me 1 extra day, they said they laid off so many people on Friday that they couldn't get to me until Monday, so my paycheck was adjusted to pay me for Monday and I was told the bad news around 11 AM.

nyccarguy

One of the reasons I quite the advertising business in October 2002 to work for my family's plumbing supply business (currently 116 years old). Job security. Yes I work 6 days a week, My 70 year old father is my very demanding boss, I only get 2 weeks vacation (the last 2 weeks in July), and have to deal with lots of craziness on both sides of the counter:

"uh boss, the truck stopped." was the start of a phone conversation because they filled our 2006 Mitsubishi Fuso FE180 up with RUG. It runs on diesel.

"no sir, there is NO WAY you can get gas into your building if Con Edison has LOCKED IT."

I know as long as I make enough money to keep the lights on and the material getting delivered, that I will ALWAYS have a job.

au1994

Congrats on the Mini @breld

jpp75

Congrats @breld!

carnaught

Congrats to Breld, The Grand Poobah, on the Mini punch!

Michaell

andres3 said:

corvette said:

Sorry to hear that, Michael. Hope you can find something quickly. One month's severance sounds pretty stingy. 

Try no severance (that's zero/zilch) after 7-1/4 years with the same company, in October of 2009. In a way they gave me 1 extra day, they said they laid off so many people on Friday that they couldn't get to me until Monday, so my paycheck was adjusted to pay me for Monday and I was told the bad news around 11 AM.

Wow. That's truly awful.

Sure seems like you landed on your feet, if you're driving an S4!

One step at a time, one day at a time.

stever

carnaught said:

Congrats to Breld, The Grand Poobah, on the Mini punch!

Entirely the wrong car for a Maxi puncher.

Mr_Shiftright

Some of our most distinguished members own Mini Coopers

xwesx

Mr_Shiftright said:

Some of our most distinguished members own Mini Coopers

Well, they do now, anyway.

Michaell

xwesx said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

Some of our most distinguished members own Mini Coopers

Well, they do now, anyway.

We're on our second one in the household!

rayainsw

A lot of information about the 2016 Infiniti Q50 was released, for anyone who is interested -

http://infinitinews.com/en-US/infiniti/usa/presskits/us-2016-infiniti-q50-press-kit#header_01

[ Click on Specs ]
No pricing yet for the 3.0t models .....

fintail

The engine should be really solid, and the transmission too - IF it was serviced. I'd worry most about electrical quirks, and check for rust.

The wheels, location. and not low mileage are worrisome. I would want records and a competent PPI, and I would still negotiate. A mint unmessed with low mileage one shouldn't get out of the low teens.

nyccarguy said:

@fintail will tell us the good, the bad, and the REALLY ugly about these, won't you pal?

andres3

nyccarguy said:

You guys are correct - Turanzas.  Those look like either:  "my lease is up in a month & I dont care what kind of tires go on the car as long as they are cheap and will pass lease end inspection tires." Or "This car needs new tires to make it a CPO, so just put on whatever is cheap so we can make a boatload of money off this car tires."

I wonder what percentage of buyers look at the brand and model of tires on a car they are considering. I know I do. If they don't meet my standards I know right away that's at least a $800 deduction, even if they are brand new. About as bad as putting on a 10 or 15 year new roof on a house when you can get 25 or 30 easily for barely more money as the cost in all in the labor.

andres3

fintail said:

Good luck, Michaell, I suspect you will be fine. Too bad there isn't better severance, but I guess it could be worse. Something will come around before you know it.

I like the automotive job idea too, who knows what might happen. A few people have told me I should be a MB dealer for my OCD knowledge and brand loyalty, but I always reply with something along the lines of they want people who can sell, not people who know cars. I'd be a terrible salesman - you don't like the car? Then don't buy it

A salesman that directs people to another vehicle they might prefer is a good one in my opinion. Shows integrity.

andres3

Michaell said:

PS - my sister is a 'style over substance' kind of gal. I told her the engines in the Tiguan and the GTI were the same, and she was surprised by that.

Sigh.

The Tiguan is probably significantly heavier than the lightweight GTI. Also, the Tiguan, and I"m not 100% sure on this, but it may have a normal slushbox instead of the efficient and fast DSG.

stickguy

Tiguan weighs about 500#s more than a GTI. And does have a normal slush box.

Michaell

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

PS - my sister is a 'style over substance' kind of gal. I told her the engines in the Tiguan and the GTI were the same, and she was surprised by that.

Sigh.

The Tiguan is probably significantly heavier than the lightweight GTI. Also, the Tiguan, and I"m not 100% sure on this, but it may have a normal slushbox instead of the efficient and fast DSG.

I believe you are correct with that.

The Tiguan is "cute" to her. And, some pretty amazing lease deals to be had.

Where did you get your SportWagen? My sister is in Rancho Bernardo.

andres3

nyccarguy said:

@breld, I think that you and @qbrozen are both going to have trouble punching the card, due to the fact that your current daily drivers (S4 & CTS V-Sport) are just that damn good.  However, your test drive impressions are fun to read.

My salesman that sold me the S4 asked me how my test drive in the S3 went since I was in a hurry and he was in the bathroom or something so I went with another guy. I kept it simple, honest and short in the email back to him: I liked the S3, but didn't love it. The S4 really does spoil you."

What they need to do is put the S4 drive train and plop it right into the S3 (333-400 HP with 7 speed DSG) with the same "real" quattro AWD system in the S4, Also, while were at it, adopt the sportback body style like the Golf R, and don't make the hole in the roof mandatory. Also, use the same Nappa leather the S4 gets.

I realize these changes will eat into their profits a bit, but it will increase sales for sure. As to the AWD system, it is very good, but somewhat reactive, whereas the S4 system is rear biased at 60% all of the time, with the ability to go up or down from 90/10 to 10/90 (and left to right with the magic rear diff) making tire spinning a thing of the past. In the S3 I was able to coax just a slight tire spin noise from the front on dry asphalt. I think I prefer the S4 AWD system.

andres3

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

Michaell said:

PS - my sister is a 'style over substance' kind of gal. I told her the engines in the Tiguan and the GTI were the same, and she was surprised by that.

Sigh.

The Tiguan is probably significantly heavier than the lightweight GTI. Also, the Tiguan, and I"m not 100% sure on this, but it may have a normal slushbox instead of the efficient and fast DSG.

I believe you are correct with that.

The Tiguan is "cute" to her. And, some pretty amazing lease deals to be had.

Where did you get your SportWagen? My sister is in Rancho Bernardo.

We got it at Mossy VW in El Cajon. They were the closest "Costco VW dealer" to where I live. The Costco pricing didn't satisfy me (although it was better than the high Edmunds price promises at the time; probably because the model was still in its first few months of introduction), so even though they said negotiation wasn't allowed on Costco deals, I still ground them down for another $500 or so, as the model we bought had a lot of fluff in the pricing (mats, cargo blocks/spacers, nets, road side assistance kit, First aid, and blah blah blah).

Also, the TDI, DSG, and SE trim add a lot of $$ to the base "S" trim model price!

nyccarguy

andres3 said:

My salesman that sold me the S4 asked me how my test drive in the S3 went since I was in a hurry and he was in the bathroom or something so I went with another guy. I kept it simple, honest and short in the email back to him: I liked the S3, but didn't love it. The S4 really does spoil you." What they need to do is put the S4 drive train and plop it right into the S3 (333-400 HP with 7 speed DSG) with the same "real" quattro AWD system in the S4, Also, while were at it, adopt the sportback body style like the Golf R, and don't make the hole in the roof mandatory. Also, use the same Nappa leather the S4 gets. I realize these changes...

Hmmm - S4 drive train, 7 speed DSG from the S4, Quattro from the S4, Nappa Leather in the S4.  That would make the S3 priced the same as an S4.  Audi won't go for that.  They won't give you a sport back body style either.

Consider yourself "lucky" that you got your diesel wagon.  Enjoy your S4.  It is a mighty fine automobile.

andres3

breld said:

Went and checked this out as a "fun car" for the wife:

2012 Mini Cooper

It's at a Fiat/Alfa Romeo dealership in a not-so-great part of metro Denver. There's a ton of dealerships in this area that (from my extensive experience) are way "old-school" and generally unpleasant. Really not so sure how the Alfa Romeo side will be successful in this location.

True to form, wife and I walk in and the salesperson (actually sales manager) walks up and literally just stares at us. I honestly think he was annoyed that we walked in during Peyton Manning's retirement press conference. Big pet peeve of mine at any retail place - a "What can I do for you?" or "What brings you in today?" is entirely appropriate, don't you think?

But, I finally break the ice and introduce ourselves and say what vehicle we're interested in.

Test drive was surprisingly fun. We weren't sure abou the "non-S" version of these Coopers, but with the stick, it's a very engaging drive. Shifted nicely. This particular car, with just under 20k miles, is in great condition.

@qbrozen already weighed in and thought their asking price of $13,500 was pretty good (makes sense, since they've had the car since late December). After the drive, I offered $12,000. Not surprisingly, they came back and said they couldn't do that, but after some back and forth and going through all the standard and annoying tacked on fees, they said they could do it for...$13,500. Uh, you mean you could come all the way down to your advertised asking price? How accommodating of you.

I said I'd do $13,000 and they let us walk. We'll see if they call or not.

I'm surprised they made you walk over $500. Seems like they came to their senses shortly thereafter after reading on.

andres3

breld said:

roadburner said:

graphicguy said:

breld...good point. "Fog of war" is an apt description. I always try to take out all the variables before hitting the dealership(s). Purchase price + tax + license....if I'm financing, have the APR + tax + license, bank rate, loan fees (if any) and monthly payments already figured at the preferred lender. That's what I'm working with. Sometimes, I even go so far as put a spread sheet together to answer the invariable "how did you come up with that number" question. I show them exactly how I came up with it.

How the dealer divides up those amounts to put in their individual buckets (i.e. to cover the alleged doc fee) is totally up to them. My numbers don't change.

That's what I do- and I give the dealer an out-the-door number. I don't care how they break it out on their end.

Yup - that's what I did today. I wanted the Mini for $13k plus tax. They finally called as we were driving home from work and accepted our offer (so the Mini is in our driveway).

But yeah - the paperwork says $12,100 plus $499 dealer handling, plus $399 for some protection package. So, $13k plus tax. No difference to me how they came to it.

Obviously there's plenty of consumers who will agree on a price and not pay attention to the additional fees that the dealership presents as mandatory, as if they are some sort of government mandated tax. That's why so many dealers still do it, right?

And did I mention - punch!

I suppose they get bonuses for selling the overpriced non-sense fees. On our VW Sportwagen they did the same thing... took our number, subtracted out the fees for Lo Jack at full retail (ridiculous; wasn't going to pay for Lo Jack), and came back up to our agreed upon discounted number. Free Lo Jack, lol. No way is Lo Jack worth $699 today as that was the year 2000 price. Like all things electronic/computer based, that price should be a small percentage of its original value.

Would anyone buy an Apple Iphone 3 for $699 today?

28firefighter

The ultimate irony with LoJack, to me, is that VW is now equipping their vehicles with CarNet which basically provides LoJack-like reporting to your mobile device.

breld

@andres3 - thanks for the narrative on the differences between the awd systems on the S3 vs S4. I just assumed they were more similar than not - I knew I liked the overall drive of my S4 better than the wife's previous S3, but now I have some context as to why that is the case.

There were a few things that came on my S4 "off the lot" that I may not have checked the box on if I had ordered just to keep the cost down - the fine nappa leather, the layered wood/aluminum trim and the rear diff. But I'm really happy now that those options were on the car I bought.

andres3

nyccarguy said:

andres3 said:

My salesman that sold me the S4 asked me how my test drive in the S3 went since I was in a hurry and he was in the bathroom or something so I went with another guy. I kept it simple, honest and short in the email back to him: I liked the S3, but didn't love it. The S4 really does spoil you."

What they need to do is put the S4 drive train and plop it right into the S3 (333-400 HP with 7 speed DSG) with the same "real" quattro AWD system in the S4, Also, while were at it, adopt the sportback body style like the Golf R, and don't make the hole in the roof mandatory. Also, use the same Nappa leather the S4 gets.

I realize these changes...

Hmmm - S4 drive train, 7 speed DSG from the S4, Quattro from the S4, Nappa Leather in the S4.  That would make the S3 priced the same as an S4.  Audi won't go for that.  They won't give you a sport back body style either.

Consider yourself "lucky" that you got your diesel wagon.  Enjoy your S4.  It is a mighty fine automobile.

Yes, I wish I had a diesel myself as I have a huge commute and diesel is currently cheaper than RUG right now in CA (and has been the past year). I wouldn't even be considering potentially maybe replacing my S4 already if it wasn't for the fact it has been accident tarnished. At least.... that's my excuse for potentially belonging on this "Chronic" forum. The way I drive (and with traffic) I only get 20-22 MPG, and I've racked up 43K miles already.

nyccarguy

You are past the statue of limitations for using the "it has been in an accident and will never be the same" excuse for the punch! LOL! There are however a myriad of alternate reasons you can still use

20-22 is fabulous MPG considering you are driving a 333 hp AWD sedan that does 0-60 in the high 4 to low 5 second range. I'm averaging just over 26 mpg on my Legacy that does 0-60 in about 9 seconds. Stick with the S4 until something mechanically major goes wrong with it. You seem happy with the way it drives.

andres3

Michaell said:

andres3 said:

corvette said:

Sorry to hear that, Michael. Hope you can find something quickly. One month's severance sounds pretty stingy. 

Try no severance (that's zero/zilch) after 7-1/4 years with the same company, in October of 2009. In a way they gave me 1 extra day, they said they laid off so many people on Friday that they couldn't get to me until Monday, so my paycheck was adjusted to pay me for Monday and I was told the bad news around 11 AM.

Wow. That's truly awful.

Sure seems like you landed on your feet, if you're driving an S4!

One step at a time, one day at a time.

Well, it has been a tough ride in my industry. Long periods of unemployment, luckily I'm a saver and frugal. You wouldn't know it by my car selection, but I am. One of my main hobbies is driving; I like to get out on a HPDE track about 2 weekends a year, and I enjoy canyon carving. So the S4 does triple duty, reliable daily driver, weekend sports car, and occasional track toy. It is much cheaper to insure 2 cars than 3; which is why I gravitate towards cars that can do it all (including room for a child safety seat).

Having a habit of not spending every dollar earned helped a lot when I was earning only unemployment. Also, I took advantage of a lot of savings from having received great resale value from my 50 month old 60K mile '03 Accord Coupe V6, which led to the '06 A3, which I kept for 8 years and 106K miles, and enjoyed a repair budget that was probably lower than most Honda's and Toyota's at the time. I did put money into the A3, but it was by choice to make it go faster, not because it needed it due to breakdowns. Also, Audi stepped up at 53K miles to replace the faulty AC system (sigh of relief!), and they extended the warranty on the faulty intake runner modules ($700). Lots of goodwill there. Due to those 2 things, I barely spent any money on the A3 for replacement parts outside of maintenance.

andres3

When I bought the S4 I had a cushy job that wasn't far from home, and I'd drive company cars during the day when I had to go places (driving wasn't directly related to the job). I was expecting 10K miles per year depreciation, so the S4 would be "cheap" to own Things change quickly and I changed jobs and more than doubled my commute. 20,000 miles a year definitely carries a lot of depreciation on a $50K car.

nyccarguy

"20,000 miles a year definitely carries a lot of depreciation on a $50K car."

So you might as well enjoy it and not worry about the resale value & depreciation. You maintain the car well and it should in turn take care of you for as long as you want it to. I just did a quick search of CPO S4s in a 50 mile radius of my area. The cheapest ones (2013s) had an asking price of over $38K. The most expensive ones were still listed over $50K, but those were 2015s with 5K miles or less.

I know the combination of the accident your car was involved in coupled with the miles makes it easy for the dealer to try and low ball you at trade time.

andres3

nyccarguy said:

andres3 said:

My salesman that sold me the S4 asked me how my test drive in the S3 went since I was in a hurry and he was in the bathroom or something so I went with another guy. I kept it simple, honest and short in the email back to him: I liked the S3, but didn't love it. The S4 really does spoil you."

What they need to do is put the S4 drive train and plop it right into the S3 (333-400 HP with 7 speed DSG) with the same "real" quattro AWD system in the S4, Also, while were at it, adopt the sportback body style like the Golf R, and don't make the hole in the roof mandatory. Also, use the same Nappa leather the S4 gets.

I realize these changes...

Hmmm - S4 drive train, 7 speed DSG from the S4, Quattro from the S4, Nappa Leather in the S4.  That would make the S3 priced the same as an S4.  Audi won't go for that.  They won't give you a sport back body style either.

Consider yourself "lucky" that you got your diesel wagon.  Enjoy your S4.  It is a mighty fine automobile.

Well, the rumor is the "next" S4 will be 250 pounds lighter than the current. That's a step in the right direction, 250 steps in fact.

andres3

breld said:

@andres3 - thanks for the narrative on the differences between the awd systems on the S3 vs S4. I just assumed they were more similar than not - I knew I liked the overall drive of my S4 better than the wife's previous S3, but now I have some context as to why that is the case.

There were a few things that came on my S4 "off the lot" that I may not have checked the box on if I had ordered just to keep the cost down - the fine nappa leather, the layered wood/aluminum trim and the rear diff. But I'm really happy now that those options were on the car I bought.

@breld NO problem. I actually "ordered" my S4, and it was hardest for a "performance" oriented guy as I consider myself to be, to check the Nappa Leather box for $1,250, but I do love the Magma Red with black combination, and the details and fit n' finish such as the contrasting stitching not only on the seats, but the gear selector, the steering wheel, the center and door armrests was all done masterfully. I like that the S4 has an aluminum plate sill not just for the front doors, but the rear as well. That being said, I should have probably checked the box for "adaptive suspension," instead for $1K. For track weekends, the "Alcantara" base seats have a lot more friction to hold you in place, and I'm sure the hard setting on the suspension would be nice as well.

fintail

And these days, with so many dealerships being part of legalized monopolies (the local Audi, BMW, MB, Volvo, et al are all AutoNation now), even if they buy another car, the profit might still go to the same place.

andres3 said:

A salesman that directs people to another vehicle they might prefer is a good one in my opinion. Shows integrity.

corvette

When Sam Swope owned several dealerships in the area, any sales associate could sell anything they had. Not sure if it's the same under the new regime. 

stickguy

the local automall complex near me (owned by Penske) is like that. Common parking and roadways, and even a test track (curvy too). Salesguys at any store are happy to take you over to the other ones if you want to cross-shop.

roadburner

corvette said:

When Sam Swope owned several dealerships in the area, any sales associate could sell anything they had. Not sure if it's the same under the new regime. 

I'll ask the next time I'm at the BMW dealership. One thing that DID change when Swope sold- they dumped the Fiat and Mitsu dealers like a bad habit...

corvette

Mitsubishi I can understand, it's a dead brand walking. A little surprised by the abrupt closure of the Fiat dealer, but its location is some very prime real estate. I haven't driven by there lately to see what they are doing with it because I try to avoid Shelbyville Road whenever possible.

andres3

nyccarguy said:

"20,000 miles a year definitely carries a lot of depreciation on a $50K car."

So you might as well enjoy it and not worry about the resale value & depreciation. You maintain the car well and it should in turn take care of you for as long as you want it to. I just did a quick search of CPO S4s in a 50 mile radius of my area. The cheapest ones (2013s) had an asking price of over $38K. The most expensive ones were still listed over $50K, but those were 2015s with 5K miles or less.

I know the combination of the accident your car was involved in coupled with the miles makes it easy for the dealer to try and low ball you at trade time.

A couple months ago with the accident history and mileage @qbrozen said getting $30K would be good for me with a trade-in. It looks like that was accurate based on initial offers. Might be a good Private Party sale item candidate. I can just say the front right took a hit. No salvaged title.

nyccarguy

So figure what?  $35K trade in with no body work & less miles?

andres3

nyccarguy said:

So figure what?  $35K trade in with no body work & less miles?

I think that's about right at $35K undamaged history (diminished value of about $5K), even without the less miles part. I have a dent in the rear right bumper side from someone in a Costco parking lot turning before backing out enough. No note. Otherwise, the car is very clean for a 43K mile S4.

It also has relatively new 255/40R18 Michelin Pilot Super Sports. The rave reviews are legit; I concur with them. They are on aftermarket TR Motorsport 18 x 8.5" rims with -35mm offset that only weigh 19.5lbs each. I still have the stock 18 x 8" rims with worn out 245/40R18 OEM Pirelli P7 summer tires.