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Comments

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Salesguy pulled the "what we have in it" nonsense when we bought the van last year. Told him that had nothing to do with the value of the car. Wish I had though about GG's "you overpaid" comeback. :)
  • 28firefighter28firefighter Seattle, WAPosts: 5,731
    All good responses from everyone and I've used many of them in some form. But my favorite is "does it really matter if we have a deal?"
    2019 Subaru Outback 3.6R Limited, 2019 BMW i3 REX
  • carnaughtcarnaught Desert SWPosts: 2,809
    edited November 2015
    Re: playing the "what we have in it" card, I've not experienced it, but I like...."and how's that my problem?"
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,882
    carnaught said:

    Some states have fixed doc. fees, not so in mine. Doc.fees around me range from $295-499, and are non-negotiable. In the process of hammering out my offer, I ask them for their doc. fees, and "other fees" which would show up on the final bill of sale.

    The "fixed" doc fees in Ohio were a statement of the maximum the dealer could charge; they did not require the dealer to charge that much or any at all. I read the Ohio Code. In fact, I had the printout of the code in my briefcase when I negotiated for the Cobalt 6 years ago. Now Ohio's law changed regarding the fee. Shows what power the dealer lobby has. The original fee was applicable to time contracts--I was paying cash do document fee was not applicable since it was remuneration for the dealer for the time and personnel to process the payment contract and peddle it to a lender.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • brian125brian125 New York Posts: 5,226
    edited November 2015
    Fl. has the highest doc fee's in the country. What a scam. Makes Ohio seem like a bargain.

    Florida doc fee's are incredible high $699 to 899. A lot of dealers do lower sale prices of there vehicles but for a non savvy / 1st time buyer you know dealers are getting over on them.

    I bought a 2003 Honda pilot out by you in OH, Beaver creek @Hidy Honda doc's at the time were $50.

    2016 BMW X-5 35i, 2012 MB ML350

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 12,365
    nyccarguy said:

    @roadburner - I mentioned a few weeks ago that my best friend went to test drive an STi.  He walked into the showroom that had no cars in it, just desks & offices.  The receptionist asks if he's here to see a specific sales person or if he scheduled an appointment?  He answers no to both questions.  She asks him to have a seat.  He said the dealership was dead.  He was the only person in the showroom who wasn't an employee.  After 5 minutes of sitting, he gets up to walk out.  Then a sales guy comes over.

    "Hi.  Welcome to xxx Subaru.  I'm xxx.  What's your name?"

    My best friend says:  "Hi I'm Scott.  I'm interested in an STi."

    He proceeds to "interview" my friend asking him where he lives, what does he do for a living, if he's married, any children...

    Next he starts asking automotive related questions.  What kind of car he drives.  What is he looking for in his next car.  What features.  How many miles per year do you drive?

    My friend gets up and makes like he's going to leave right in the middle of the guy's word:

    "Is everything OK sir?"

    "Yes.  You made me sit here and wait for 5 minutes, now you've been interviewing me for another 5 minutes.  I told you 5 minutes ago that I'm interested in an STi.  Do you have one I can sit in & see if it is even comfortable for me?"

    Right then & there the sales "interview ended" & the guy took my friend onto the lot and showed him some cars.  He said the guy was totally cool on the test drive.  He even told my friend to push it a little harder.  My friend declined.  

    They got back to the dealership.  He asks my friend what he thinks.  My friend gives him his overall impressions.  

    "Ok, so would you like to buy the car now?  We charge MSRP."  

    My friend replied:  "Sounds fantastic.  I'll pay sticker for your car if you pay sticker for my 2015 Tahoe outside and write me a check for the difference."

    The Subaru dealers that I have talked with have been willing to knock a thousand or two off of MSRP, but I do think the STIs hold their value exceptionally well. I've seen some previous generation STIs advertised for almost as much as used 2015 cars- although part of that may be due to the fact that some STI fans prefer the hatch, which is NLA.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,909
    I have decided to pass on the 2014 Lexus LS. Reason? Just too many other ways to spend and enjoy that $30,000.+ difference I would have to cough up. Just a matter of priorities.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • corvettecorvette United StatesPosts: 6,995
    $30k will pay for a lot of vacations.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,909
    corvette said:

    $30k will pay for a lot of vacations.

    Exactly. Before you guys blackball me, a while back I counted up all the cars I have owned over the years, including all the company cars I have had, a couple of cars my parents bought for me, and all the cars I have bought for myself, my wife, and kids I got a grand total of 55.

    A very interesting exercise, give it a try, I would like to see who holds the record ! I will be 73 in Jan. so I have have a good head start on most of you. If you start at the age when you got your first car, my average is about 1 car a year from age 16 to now.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    I think we did some years ago, and if I recall correctly, you don't have quite enough for top spot but you'd definitely be in the top 5. Like you say, the older guys have the advantage because "back then" some used cars were very cheap, and very easy to fix up and flip. Also, some of us have lived long enough to maintain our bad habit year and year.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,909
    edited November 2015
    Yes, as someone once said, "I have spent a lot of money on cars over the years....and just wasted the rest of it!" :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,533
    Maybe you should get a hobby car, and as you are a Lexus fan, find a mint old one. Have gagrice sell you his old LS, or find a SC300 manual or something. They won't pull Porsche-like speculative price, but eventually someone will appreciate them.
  • ken117ken117 Posts: 249
    Carnaught, those doc fees are not fees. They are simply the selling price separated into two parts, price and fake fee. Dealers use this tactic to deceive buyers into paying more. Dealers also use this tactic to enable them to advertise a lower price to lure buyers to the dealership.

    No state or bank or car manufacturer requires these fees. Some states limit the amount dealers may call a doc fee, some do not. Dealer F&I folks use the word fee to attach some legitimacy to the fee. Not illegal, due to the power the dealers have over our elected officials, but certainly deceptive.

    These doc fees are explained as to compensate the dealer for the the cost to the dealer to prepare the paper work for the sale. This is a dealer cost not a customer cost. The dealer's selling price includes all dealer cost and profit.

    Regardless, in today's world of electronics, how much does it cost a dealer to prepare the paper work? Certainly not hundreds of dollars.
  • carnaughtcarnaught Desert SWPosts: 2,809
    edited November 2015
    Ken, totally agree. When we say doc. fee, we're using that term lightly. As I said, it's totally a dealer profit fudge-factor, and they're allowed to charge it.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,258
    Pictures of the 2007 town car with 28k are up. Looks brand new. Someone should snag that baby.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 13,583
    houdini1 said:
    I have decided to pass on the 2014 Lexus LS. Reason? Just too many other ways to spend and enjoy that $30,000.+ difference I would have to cough up. Just a matter of priorities.
    Blowing the whistle - Flag on the play!  Lol!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2017 Pilot Touring AWD, 2019 Tacoma TRD Sport 4WD

  • 28firefighter28firefighter Seattle, WAPosts: 5,731
    nyccarguy said:
    houdini1 said:
    I have decided to pass on the 2014 Lexus LS. Reason? Just too many other ways to spend and enjoy that $30,000.+ difference I would have to cough up. Just a matter of priorities.
    Blowing the whistle - Flag on the play!  Lol!
    5 yards. Repeat first down. 
    2019 Subaru Outback 3.6R Limited, 2019 BMW i3 REX
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyPosts: 9,273
    stickguy said:
    Pictures of the 2007 town car with 28k are up. Looks brand new. Someone should snag that baby.
    If it was a Signature Limited and fully loaded I would be test driving it Monday night.   I can't give up steering wheel controls and the wife likes heated seats both which my Marquis has.

    Man is it in nice shape... Wow

    2017 Buick Enclave / 2019 Volvo S60 T6 Inscription

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,416
    On the spreading around the miles thing: the wife and I just discussed this the other night. As nyccarguy said (thanks for the compliment, BTW), its a matter of buying another $40k-$50k car much sooner than I'd want. Let's take her $44k van... She drives 25k/yr. In 6 years, at 150k, we'd look to replace it and spend another $44k. OR spend another $16k, as we just did, on a spare, and put 12.5k miles on each. Now the $44k van lasts me 12 years (theoretically of course). Then let's say this $16k car gets swapped out every 3 years for half its value. That's $16k over 6 years. In scenario 1, i spent $44k and used it up in 6 years; in scenario 2, i used up $38k in that same 6 years. Yes, I will spend an extra $3k in insurance in that time, but, no, there is no extra maintenance cost since its the same number of miles. 

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,416
    Cars/year? Just brought home #41. I have been driving for 25 years as of a couple of weeks ago. 

    And, yes, put me in for a punch. So this morn we stopped to see another H3. Told him we wanted to think about it, but he did come out and say they would sell it for the number I had in mind. That was good but something felt a little off about the vehicle. We talked and decided we had a few more on our list to check off and then we'd be back on the way home.

    called torchlight motors to ask about their 2008 xc90 but nobody answered the phone. So next we called Ramsey Volvo about a 2009 LR2 they advertised with no pics but only 32k miles and at a pretty cheap $16k. It was still there, an hour's drive away, and 2 other interested parties. So we figured we'd make that the next stop and then we could hit a couple of other places on the way home to see another Hummer and an RX400h. 

    Had another text from pushy dealer saying all fees would be waived. I didn't reply. Meanwhile, got up to Ramsey in about 45 mins. Checked out the truck, looked as good as you'd want for the miles, took it for a quick spin, and told him we'd take it. The price was so good and I could find no fault with the car that I didn't want to argue about it. Fees were about $300 on the high side but even taking that into the selling price, we still good a very solid deal.

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • Sandman6472Sandman6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 5,014
    Yes, we get royally screwed here in Florida with these bogus "doc fees" but I also always do an otd price as don't care where the numbers go as long as the final numbers meet mine. Really do hate the buying process as one never ever really knows if they did a really good job or just a so so one due to the hidden fees and incentives the dealers get. Sure, the internet has helped level the playing field a lot, one can only hope that in the end, the deal was fair for both sides.
    Funny but a few days later, we all tend to forget it all and just enjoy our new vehicles. Best to not look back but just enjoy what's in the garage!

    The Sandman :)B)

    2015 Audi A3 (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2008 Hyundai Accent GLS (daughter #2)

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 11,383
    edited November 2015
    My ex-boss has/had a LR2. Nice rig, very solid. As you might expect, when things go bad, they get very expensive. He didn't have a whole lot of problems with his IIRC.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,624
    @qbrozen:

    i wish you you many years of driving pleasure in your new addition to the "stable!"  Great deal!

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    But...but.... Houdini.....love dies but possessions are forever.


    nyccarguy said:


    houdini1 said:

    I have decided to pass on the 2014 Lexus LS. Reason? Just too many other ways to spend and enjoy that $30,000.+ difference I would have to cough up. Just a matter of priorities.

    Blowing the whistle - Flag on the play!  Lol!

    5 yards. Repeat first down. 

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,624
    Yes, we get royally screwed here in Florida with these bogus "doc fees" but I also always do an otd price as don't care where the numbers go as long as the final numbers meet mine. Really do hate the buying process as one never ever really knows if they did a really good job or just a so so one due to the hidden fees and incentives the dealers get. Sure, the internet has helped level the playing field a lot, one can only hope that in the end, the deal was fair for both sides. Funny but a few days later, we all tend to forget it all and just enjoy our new vehicles. Best to not look back but just enjoy what's in the garage! The Sandman :)B)
    Good summary of the feelings I have about car buying here in Florida.  Did I get a good deal on my new car - yep!  But in a week or two, it really won't matter.  Now if I can get out of this darn hospital and get home to drive the car, that's all that matters.

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • corvettecorvette United StatesPosts: 6,995
    abaco, hope you get well soon!

    qbrozen, congrats on the punch! Sounds like a good deal.
  • MichaellMichaell ColoradoPosts: 130,000

    Yes, we get royally screwed here in Florida with these bogus "doc fees" but I also always do an otd price as don't care where the numbers go as long as the final numbers meet mine. Really do hate the buying process as one never ever really knows if they did a really good job or just a so so one due to the hidden fees and incentives the dealers get. Sure, the internet has helped level the playing field a lot, one can only hope that in the end, the deal was fair for both sides.
    Funny but a few days later, we all tend to forget it all and just enjoy our new vehicles. Best to not look back but just enjoy what's in the garage!

    The Sandman :)B)

    Good summary .. I tell folks in these forums all the time that the pleasure of driving the new car will far outlast any feelings you had regarding the deal itself.

    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and let us know! Post a pic of your new purchase or lease!


    MODERATOR

    2015 Subaru Outback 3.6R / 2014 MINI Countryman S ALL4

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,258
    edited November 2015
    Good deal Q. They look much classier than an H3. That looks like something that would get old real quick.

    Looked up the ousting. Even has tech package. And can't beat the miles. Enjoy.

    Though you still need another one, for when wife has that and the caddy is garaged!

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,258
    Huh. That dealer has the twin of my wife's RDX. Just about 4K less on the clock.

    And an oddball. Sonata with a stick shift! May be 1 of 1 of those.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMPosts: 7,615
    edited November 2015
    Ever meet a poor car dealership owner? No, I have not. Even Hasty in the Jesse Stone movies is not poor. He's a game-player, dishonest and uses that goofy light-it-up bow tie to celebrate car sales, but the guy is never poor in the series. And I don't think viewers of Jesse Stone movies think he's hurting at all, either.

    All of my Scion leanings are far out to the back of the backburner, now. I'm gonna hold with the 2011 Kia Soul 5-speed clear white base, and, I have an appointment Monday to get it's 60,000 mile timing belt replaced. I asked for a loaner car for this job, because I had a strong feeling they wouldn't get the job done in one workday, and, I want them to give me the 2014 Kia Soul dark green 6-speed they have for sale as the loaner car. I may have to ask for a stick Soul as my loaner. I've wondered how the Kia 6-speed setup in the newer Souls differs from my '11 bases' 5-speed stick with 2.0L motor. These things can be huge - if, per chance, I notice something different in Kia's 1.6L motor in the 2014 and/on Souls and their clutch setup, maybe, just maybe, I'll start long-term planning on a simple trade-in in 4 years or so for a 2020 Kia Soul base 6-speed. I am by no means unhappy with rowing gears in my 5-speed 2.0L Soul. No way, Jose. In red color by then, though, maybe? Truth be told, Kia wants base Soul models to be sold in white, graphite, black and silver. I can live with that, though. Wondering if they'll hold to that in several years or paint base model Souls in red by then, or that mustard yellow color people like ta hate but, of course, I seem ta like. B)

    Actually, an online friend in northern Michigan who loves Kia even more than I do has been discussing on Facebook the new Kia GT sports sedan in the planning stages. It's production line has probably been selected, South Korea's oldest carmaker is deft at planning things way ahead, as they should. But, if Peter Schreyer (Kia's Design Chief, lured from Audi Motors) has his way, the car's design will lure many Americans in to the Kia ownership fold. RWD, I am hoping for 6-speed manual transmissions to row, no automatic-only positions from Kia, and a body to make a car guy melt in to Tucson's central-city pavement and beg for coolness possibilities, not a single question asked!

    I may just wait for the Kia GT sports sedan, I mean, I have a Kia dealership in Dodge City, and, I'm just about to experience their service department. This will be a cool learning experience, I think, for a Kia fan who travels around.

    A lot. B)

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 12,365
    qbrozen said:

    Cars/year? Just brought home #41. I have been driving for 25 years as of a couple of weeks ago. 

    And, yes, put me in for a punch. So this morn we stopped to see another H3. Told him we wanted to think about it, but he did come out and say they would sell it for the number I had in mind. That was good but something felt a little off about the vehicle. We talked and decided we had a few more on our list to check off and then we'd be back on the way home.

    called torchlight motors to ask about their 2008 xc90 but nobody answered the phone. So next we called Ramsey Volvo about a 2009 LR2 they advertised with no pics but only 32k miles and at a pretty cheap $16k. It was still there, an hour's drive away, and 2 other interested parties. So we figured we'd make that the next stop and then we could hit a couple of other places on the way home to see another Hummer and an RX400h. 

    Had another text from pushy dealer saying all fees would be waived. I didn't reply. Meanwhile, got up to Ramsey in about 45 mins. Checked out the truck, looked as good as you'd want for the miles, took it for a quick spin, and told him we'd take it. The price was so good and I could find no fault with the car that I didn't want to argue about it. Fees were about $300 on the high side but even taking that into the selling price, we still good a very solid deal.

    Congrats! I'm hoping to work up the courage to buy a Land Rover someday...

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport; 2014 M235i; 2009 Cooper Clubman; 1999 Wrangler; 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica Wife's: 2015 X1 xDrive28i Son's: 2009 328i

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 13,583
    @qbrozen - Mazel-Tov & congrats on the LR2 Punch! You are welcome btw.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2017 Pilot Touring AWD, 2019 Tacoma TRD Sport 4WD

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,490
    Best of luck with it Q
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,416
    Thanks, all. Just realized today it doesn't have homelink? I find that a really odd omission. However, Siri works through the bluetooth, but not music streaming. Our 2014 Chrysler is precisely the opposite. Always baffles me when manufacturers can't seem to get the easy things right. 

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • abacomikeabacomike South FloridaPosts: 10,624
    qbrozen said:
    Thanks, all. Just realized today it doesn't have homelink? I find that a really odd omission. However, Siri works through the bluetooth, but not music streaming. Our 2014 Chrysler is precisely the opposite. Always baffles me when manufacturers can't seem to get the easy things right. 
    If manufacturers got things right all the time, "q", there would be nothing to talk about, complain about or post about!  Right? :disappointed: 

    2018 Mercedes S450

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,258
    A lot of cars don't have Homelink that I would expect to have it. phone integration, that really fluctuates, but keep in mind it is a 2009 that came out in 2006, So it is ancient in technology terms.

    and of course, it is a LR, so just be happy it starts! B)

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • corvettecorvette United StatesPosts: 6,995
    Yeah, a lot of cars equipped with Bluetooth didn't have audio streaming support in 2009. My Yukon doesn't even have Bluetooth at all. I could rip out the Onstar and replace it with a Bluetooth adapter, or replace the nav unit with a newer one ($$$$). I think I will continue to use a 3.5mm cable for now.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,533
    I had a 1998 MB with Homelink, a 2002 model had it too. I think they started getting Bluetooth around 2007-08. I had a Charger rental about a year ago with no Bluetooth, surprising - my sister's 2012 Sonic has it.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 11,383
    My 2011 Buick Regal had Bluetooth for phone calls, but no streaming.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,258
    My cars both have streaming, but I never use it. I actually rarely use the phone in the car to play anything, but if I do, I plug it into the USB plug.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • carnaughtcarnaught Desert SWPosts: 2,809
    fintail said:

    I had a 1998 MB with Homelink, a 2002 model had it too. I think they started getting Bluetooth around 2007-08. I had a Charger rental about a year ago with no Bluetooth, surprising - my sister's 2012 Sonic has it.

    My first Bluetooth was on my 2004 Acura TL, I think one of the first models with it.

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 11,383
    stickguy said:

    My cars both have streaming, but I never use it. I actually rarely use the phone in the car to play anything, but if I do, I plug it into the USB plug.

    The streaming is nice if you are making several stops, like a shopping trip, where you are in and out of the car. You can just leave the phone in your pocket and still have your tunes when you get back in the car.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 34,258
    different strokes here. I just listen to XM.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 9,360
    We do enjoy having XM in the wife's vehicle. If I could get a decent discount on a second account, I'd get one of those kits to have it in my car and for use in the house.

    Edmunds Moderator

    Silver 2012 Nissan Versa Hatchback & White 2019 Nissan Rogue S

    Need some roadside assistance? [email protected] - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

    Just purchased or leased a vehicle? Write your own vehicle review

  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,533
    I am a satellite radio addict now. Local radio here is iffy, I kind of like having a surprise about what song is next so homemade playlists don't work, etc. I bargained at my last renewal. I've never even used bluetooth streaming before.

    I technically have 11 months left in the lease before a pull forward possibility, but I looked at a couple cars on the local dealer's lot today, just for the heck of it. I was disappointed in the misinformation - both were Tex cars, but the sticker said "leather" - sounds like a way to get sued once the new buyer finds out. One said "luxury package", when it was not a lux car. No posted price, which is a turn off too. This dealership changed hands relatively recently, and I fear this is the new way.
  • corvettecorvette United StatesPosts: 6,995
    Sheesh, does MB let dealers print their own stickers?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,533
    These were CPO cars, so the stickers were dealer-made, but apparently to no accuracy standard. It might be that part of sales where knowing how to sell vastly trumps knowing the product.
  • berriberri Posts: 10,166
    I like those dealers where they have an official looking price sticker that includes make up mark-up crap. That's a signal to just turn around and move on.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 11,584
    Q...Big Congrats on the Rover!
    2018 Acura TLX 3.5 SH AWD A-SPEC
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