Any downside to buying a hybrid?

railroadjames

As I see it there are some downsides to buying a hybrid car.
     1) Price always seems to be a premium or there are tack-ons.
     2) THE WAIT (some have been known to wait in excess of 6 months for their car.
     3) The limited servicability. Lets hope your near a Dealer to get it to in the event you need roadside assistance.
     4) After warranty what to expect on any repairs or replacements. ($$$$$$?????)
     5) Resale value (the jury is still out on that one)
Anyone care to add to the list?
Culliganman (loven my Prius for now)

explorerx4

my sister picked up her prius about a month ago.
she only waited a month to get it. she didn't mention anything like add on options or costs.
as a matter of fact, she called me friday to tell me the dealer where she got hers, had one on the ground and available for sale(western pa).
i got to drive it about 50 miles of locally.
wonder about the efficiency of the batteries in cold weather. it was cold while she was visiting, and the mileage was a tick under 36mpg. most of the time there were 3-4 people in it. later, we noticed the tire pressure was down 4-5 pounds.
when she got back home mileage was back up in the 40's. so, i guess it is affected by the number of passengers, weather conditions, and maybe gas formulation, just like any other car.
i do wonder how it will handle snow.
having said all that, i thought it was very liveable vehicle and imo, an impressive design.

daysailer

the overriding downside, particularly when compared to vehicles of comparable performance and utility. It has been dissapointing to read that the new Escape hybrid does not achieve the long awaited promise of "V6 performance" and with a towing capacity of merely 1000lb, it compromises the 'U' in SUV.

Then there are the "drivability" issues for hybrids based on the Toyota system, particularly for those of us accustomed to the control of a manual transmission. A vehicle with a "mind of its own" that biases control algorithms toward economy and emissions reduction while unable to see and respond to the dangerous dynamic world around it is disconcerting, at best. And what of the longevity implications of an IC engine that is repeatedly required to immediately deliver 100% output starting from a static state?

pjyoung

Daysailer...do you typically floor it from stoplights repeatedly? I don't. And usually, in driving with the "flow" of urban traffic, the engine doesn't even come on until about 15mph. And the engine, when called upon from a standing start, isn't putting out anywhere near 100%, yet I don't seem to be impedeing the flow of traffic - although I guess I've never had you behind me.

daysailer

The vagaries and hazards of urban traffic flow may create circumstances where the full capabilities of the vehicle may be called for at any time and at any speed, even at those where some hybrids may be operating in electric-only mode. A transition from electic-only operation to full power does not seem at all unlikely to me, particularly for vehicles of such modest capabilities as the hybrids have thus far offerred. I regularly commute in a vehicle of modest power and I seldom, if ever, complete that trip without some occasion(s) to invoke full throttle.

pjyoung

I don't know where you live, but driving in the midwest to and from work every day, and around town on weekends, I MIGHT use full throttle once a week - if that.

daysailer

Perhaps the mid-Atlantic corridor is different. But however often a loaded restart may occur, it is surely more stressful to and engine, particularly if oil pressure and block temperature are not maintained (does Toyota's system address this?). Regardless, (an "unreliable" Toyota is still likely better than most other cars) there remains the delay in response introduced by the restart. By its very nature, a condition that requires full power is intolerant of ANY delay.

railroadjames

Well, where to begin? From what I'm reading it sounds like you're talking about Hybrids without putting your foot to the techno peddle. I've owned GTO's, Corvettes, and Mustangs. These plus a whole lotta supercycles. All of which could turn knuckles blue. My Prius has more than enough zip and I contend that she's fast enough. Simply put. I've had her over 110 MPH for a short period. SOLID!! Again, if you want to judge 1st get in and drive one. I know they're not all the same but they all have their own nuances.
Culliganman (seeing's believing)

falconone

I can't see any reason that the current hybrids can't keep up with traffic flow. The Prius can accelerate to 60 MPH in about ten seconds. It has better mid-range 30-70 than a Toyota Camry. There have been THOUSANDS sold in the states and I haven't heard of any accidents caused by hybrids slowing down traffic. I did hear of one accident caused by a Miata that impeded traffic flow from a Corvette.

daysailer

and actual performance are not one and the same. I recall years ago a cousin telling me that his new Mercedes 240D was surprisingly "powerful" and, admitedly, upon driving it SEEMED quicker than I expected. Yet by any real measure, the 240D was a slug. A vehicle with generous low end torque, whether diesel or electric, may FEEL quick while not actually BEING so. I noted that one of the reviews of the Escape Hybrid made a comment to the effect that it did not have the performance of the V6, but "felt" like the V6. The dynamic environment in which I must operate a vehicle cares not a whit how I feel, why should I delude myself?

pjyoung

Yes, Toyota does address this. First off, there is a "thermoslike" container which contains warm coolant (it keeps it warm for a couple of days). Secondly, the car actually runs on the gas engine quite a bit - especially when started first thing after sitting idle for a longish period. The engine shuts down when not needed - usually not for an extended period of time - on downhill grades or when anything more than light acceleration is called for. Otherwise, the gas engine runs, just like it does in a 3 ton SUV pulling a trailer with a jet-ski on it. You might try driving one sometime.

daysailer

but I don't consider it ethical to exercize a dealer to provide a test drive of a vehicle that I would not seriously consider buying. Further, it is not feasible (let alone responsible) to determine a vehicle's dynamic capabilities in a dealer test drive. The Prius has many characteristics that would keep it off my short-list (as do all hybrids to date), not the least of which is its price. And that is where I started. Regardless the performance of the Prius, or Insight, or whatever, if the premium paid over vehicles of similar performance and utility is not recoverable in my ownership period, the choice is not economically sound.

pjyoung

You should at least drive one to see how the drivetrain operates. To each their own...I fail to see why so many people whose idea of "off road" is the mall parking lot and who don't own a trailer, nor would they have any idea how to hook one up, would opt for a 6,000 pound SUV as their daily commuter. I don't drive off road, I have no need to pull a trailer, but I do have a daily commute, that I am able to make in comfort, in a vehicle with a very high safety rating and that delivers over 45 mpg.

gagrice

I don't consider it ethical to exercize a dealer to provide a test drive of a vehicle that I would not seriously consider buying

I don't think there is anything wrong with going out for a test drive. Who knows you may like it. I test drove a Prius in 2000 and liked it. My wife hated it so that was the end of it. Good thing to we got divorced about 6 months later and I would have had to give her that car as we were going to trade in her Camry. One of the selling points on the 2000 Prius was 8 years and 100k miles bumper to bumper. Without that I would not consider a hybrid.

daysailer

for my entertainment, with no prospect of benefit to the dealer, is unethical in my view. When I test drive a vehicle I will have reviewed published test data and specifications and determined that it fits within my price/performance/utility envelope and I have found no intolerable warts. The hybrids thus far offerred do not satisfy those requirements.

Apart from the Prius' test data, which is marginal at best and certainly not consistent with a $25K car, I could not abide its abominable, center mounted instrumentation which I find intellectually offensive as an egregious example of capricious form over usefull function. (I'd not buy a Mini for the same reason, even though it has redeeming dynamics.) The Insight is closest to my idea of a commuter car, if only it had better performance.

The Escape offerred some promise as a replacement to my aging tow goat, until I learned that it has a mere 1K lbm towing capacity - a far cry fron the MPV's 3500lbm with auto load leveling. The Escape seems to have even more warts as a result of its Toyota based hybrid system, since its A/C is driven by the IC engine.

But for me, as I've said, all of the above is less of a detractor than the hybrid price premium which I'd not likely recover during my ownership. So a test drive would be selfish entertainment at best.

electrictroy

I walked into a dealer last summer and said, "I don't have a job (just laid off). I couldn't buy a car even if I wanted to. But I want to drive the New Prius."

They let me do it.

Sylvia

Now that we are completely off-topic....either get back "on topic" or the discussion will be closed and moved to the archives.

Thanks!

daysailer

Then the downside that seems inescapable (for now) appears to be cost. If the promise of the Accord hybrid holds true, - a hybrid that offers more than improved fuel economy as compared to its conventional brethren, we may finally have a hybrid that provides a rationale for its lofty price. Unfortunately, it also means that only those with incomes well into six figures can reasonably enjoy the first hybrid to offer more than fuel economy to justiify its existence. I don't doubt that there will one day be hybrids for the rest of us, but not in time for my next purchase cycle (two of my cars are nearing 13 years old). Perhaps in 2019?

railroadjames

I applaud you in your obvious thriftiness (13 yrs).
I too have that quality (a 73' Riviera). Unfortunitly w/ a 455 engine it only sees occasional outings. About cost for a hybrid, It is true that there is a price to be paid for a duo engine car (to be expected) and with so many people lining up to buy them with this cost increase, it seems obvious that Toyota & Honda have brought to the table their reputation for durability and quality. Since I own a Prius I must point out that although price was a hesitation I felt that the styling and several other inovations pushed me over to the buyer's side. Lastly, I would not have bought my Prius had I been unable to test drive one with my wife. She and I came away sold on it and had we been unable to take that test drive I doubt we would have gone over to the Hybrid.
Culliganman (downsides overcome)

electrictroy

For thrifty folks, it might more sense to get a diesel. A 35 mpg Passat can be had for ~$20,000 or a 45 mpg Golf for ~$15,000.

larsb

"performance" equal to (acutally surpassing) the other non-Hybrid cars in it's own line, and blowing away the diesels. So it is a new direction in a way. Cost will be an issue for those buyers, because it's a $30,000 car.

But SO MANY of the SUVs on the road are also in that price range and many are MUCH higher. So cost is not a factor for anyone who can afford a nice SUV if they would prefer an Accord Hybrid.

But you do not have to have an income in the 6 figure range to afford a Hybrid.

If you care about the environment, and you need a commuter car that also is used as a car for a small family, the Civic Hybrid is a frugal solution. I got mine with 4800 miles on it, so it was technically USED but it was "Honda Certified" so it was in virtually new condition, and I paid $19,324 for it.

I have averaged about 46.5 MPG in almost ENTIRELY City driving after 4,200 miles on the car.

I see no downside at all to ANY Hybrid. Find the Hybrid that fits your lifestyle and budget and BUY IT *BECAUSE* it is a Hybrid !!!

pjyoung

Amen Brother!!

daysailer

a "cost no object" approach to vehicle ownership, more power to you. I cannot.

electrictroy

"For thrifty folks, it might more sense to get a diesel. A 35 mpg Passat can be had for ~$20,000 or a 45 mpg Golf for ~$15,000."

Or Civic HX for $14,000 that gets 44 mpg.

misterme

Really the only thing after 11 monthts and 27,000 miles of a downside is lack of training-experience in the dealerships, also lack of any hybrid knowledge in any other auto shop.

About the Civic HX....it can only carry 2 people.
Insight is also a 2-seater but gets around 70MPG, some are exceeding 100MPG per tank.

It is true that if you are looking for a thrifty car, looking to save $$ then a Civic DX or Echo -type- car would be better than any hybrid (Or diesel for that matter)

railroadjames

There is one more downside to a Hybrid vehicle that has already begun to frustrate me....I CAN'T WORK ON ANYTHING!! Well, you know what I mean. I can do the oil, change filters, Probably a brake job, and a few odds & ends. I guess it's safe to to say that I'm at the mercy of the experts at the dealerships. Gone are those days of the weekend mechanics.
Culliganman (missin the ol'days)

electrictroy

"About the Civic HX....it can only carry 2 people."

It's a 2-door car, but I assure you it has a backseat. (I've driven it.) So up to 5 people. And about $6000 cheaper than the Hybrids, but still gets 40-44 mpg.

falconone

Nice alternative. Wonder why it doesn't sell that well. Great commuter car too!

gagrice

Nice alternative. Wonder why it doesn't sell that well. Great commuter car too!

I like the looks of the two door fastback. I tried to find how well they sell and they are included with the sedans and hybrid sedan. They are 5 passenger and only a foot less trunk than the Accord, all for a TMV $12,165 in San Diego. That is economy.

falconone

I was actually pricing one out and with the options I want (CVT and AC) it gets in the upper teens. If optioned sensibly, it's a GREAT car. Definitely need A/C!! Not even sure if it has ABS in that model. That's absurd! Now don't start telling us that ABS is not a good feature Gary. I won't buy ANY vehicle without it. Heck, my 1990 Integra had it. No reason a 2005 Honda Civic shouldn't at LEAST have it as an option.

gagrice

Looks to me like you would pay about $18k for one equipped like you want it. I think only the EX model coupe has ABS. I'm not thrilled with ABS on ice with 4X4 PU trucks. On our Ford F350s it makes a weird buzzing noise when you stop on ice. My Suburban has it and can't say whether I like it or not. I never drive hard enough to test it out. It would probably be handy if I drove like some of these fools in CA when it rains.

misterme

I stand corrected, Hondacars.com specifies the HX as a 5 passenger vehicle.

As mentioned if saving $ is your only priority then a Civic DX or Echo would be the better bet.

However I'm always amused when someone compares a no-frills model to the nicest of its line and says its cheeper.
Let's do that with another model:
I just went to http://automobiles.honda.com and visited the Accord section.
MSRP for a DX is about $16K.
I just priced a nicely (Not even fully) equipped EX for around $27K.

Shall I seek an Accord EX message board and tell them that an unequipped Accord DX is 11K cheaper?

stevedebi

"Shall I seek an Accord EX message board and tell them that an unequipped Accord DX is 11K cheaper? "

Yeah, go for it, but I doubt it will raise much of a fuss...

gagrice

Many consumers think hybrids are interesting, but the extra mileage just doesn't justify the premium, said Anthony Pratt, senior manager of global powertrains at J.D. Power and Associates, the market research firm.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/bus- iness/110034205328630.xml

misterme

I'll post this again (and make it bold):

As mentioned if saving $ is your only priority then a Civic DX or Echo would be the better bet.

However the title of your post is not accruate.
Hybrid drivers have posted their actual calculated MPG of over 3 million miles of hybrid experience over at greenhybrid dot com and the average figures for each vehicle falls within range of the EPA estimates.
The only exception is the Escape Hybrid, which is too new to get a good average over a multitude of drivers.

gagrice

However the title of your post is not accruate.

I think it is completely accurate. Your website says the Prius II median average is 49 mpg. The EPA says it should be 55 mpg. That is pretty sizable difference IMO. Both the Insight and Civic hybrid are in their EPA range. It is the Prius that has gotten a lot of publicity and media flack for not meeting the EPA estimates.

pjyoung

I guess the bottom line is this...the car I replaced got an overall MPG of 21. So 49 as an average is quite an improvement. And...I recall reading articles from Toyota themselves who state that the EPA figures are not accurate for the Prius. So I didn't go in thinking that 60 mpg was going to be my mileage. I suppose I am at the point to say - with all the data that is available to consumers on cars these days (from this site, these boards, and other places) anyone who walks into a car dealership with on the marketing departments info on the car pretty much deserves what they get.

larsb

"Someone is paying for that R&D. Who? I think those that buy the cars and our tax dollars."

The people buying Toyota and Honda cars are paying for it, and the company stockholders, and the executives. I can't see how my tax dollars are paying for R&D at a private company...??

"Maybe they will start lowering the prices on them. Many are paying a premium that is money down the toilet."

Yes, I'm sure the prices will come down when Hybrids are not such a novelty as they are now. But it is NOT DIFFERENT AT ALL from the times in the past when "automatic transmissions" were novelty items, and later "Anti-lock brake systems" were novelty items. It's just another step in the evolution of Autos.

"As far as reliability we will not know until a sizeable portion have crossed the 15 year or 150k mile useful lifespan."

Acutally, reliability is tracked ever single year, so we will know WAY before then. How do you think "Most Reliable" and "Least Reliable" ratings are determined? They are determined from owners reporting problems during the useful life of the car, not after 15 years when it is sitting in a junkyard. You don't honestly think that usable reliability data takes that long to establish, do you?

"On the site that tracks hybrid mileage out of 56 HCH cars reporting their mileage none are over 50k miles. Most people do not consider a car broken in until at least 50k miles. Only time will tell on the reliability."

There is a user with 43K and his tanks have shown NO DECREASE yet. He is averaging 54.4 MPG over that 43,000 miles. You are right about time telling, and so far time has shown that that HCH has shown no indications of problems maintaining high MPG figures. We'll see again when he hits 75K, and no one can know what will happen. On reliability, well, it's a Civic, and Civics score high on every measured reliability scale ever invented.

"Prius are starting to show their age and along with it some bad news for owners. Keep your fingers crossed."

What evidence is there of older Priuses giving "bad news for owners"? I frequent many Prius forums and have yet to see any complaints or widespread battery issues, or other reliability issues either.

gagrice

You don't honestly think that usable reliability data takes that long to establish, do you?

I absolutely do. If the car has problems in the first 50k miles I consider that a bad sign. My last 4 Chevy PUs & Suburban had NO problems. I had the AC pump on my Suburban replaced under warranty before the 6 years was up. It was making a rattling noise, still kept the car cold.

What evidence is there of older Priuses giving "bad news for owners"?

You missed this one. $2100 for a catalytic convertor?

greenmoongirl "Toyota Prius Owners: Problems & Solutions" Dec 1, 2004 1:32am

larsb

Me-"You don't honestly think that usable reliability data takes that long to establish, do you?-end gagrice-"I absolutely do. If the car has problems in the first 50k miles I consider that a bad sign."

Of course problems in the first 50K miles are unpleasant in ANY car. But "overall reliability" can only be accurately measured by THOUSANDS of owners reporting problems (or no problems) on a particular car. Under no one's measure does ONE PROBLEM in the first 50K miles mean a reliability problem, or indicate ANYTHING at all except that one component in one car failed early. You can draw no scientific conclusion from that one instance.

Now, if that problem on that component occurs on 500 cars or 1000 cars, then it becomes a reliability issue with THAT MODEL YEAR car.

The lady with the $2100 converter should have spent $1500 on an extended warranty, or sold her car before 92K. And it is ONE instance of ONE component failing on ONE car. No valid scientific conclusion can be made that the whole line is "unreliable" because one car had a failed component.

Do you know what percentage of people keep their cars for more than 100K miles? It's about 5 to 10 percent.

So problems at 92,000 miles that are not covered under warranty does not CONDEMN an entire car line. It couldn't, or every single car in every line on the road would be considered UNRELIABLE.

C'mon guys, lets use some common sense on these issues......

gagrice

So problems at 92,000 miles that are not covered under warranty does not CONDEMN an entire car line.

Not at all. What it does is make those that have cars close to going out of warranty nervous. I think if you followed the VW Jetta board. One of the advisaries was get the extended warranty. Now you have said the same for the Prius. I always get cheated on warranties because the car gets old before I get close to the mileage. The real problem that I see with this 92k mile Prius that is only 3 years old is the horrendous cost of repair. They are right to be worried. If they have already spent $600 for some sensor and are faced with a $2100 catalytic convertor. Does that seem like a low maintenance car to you? How much do you think they could get for that car right now?

larsb

quote gagrice-"Does that seem like a low maintenance car to you? How much do you think they could get for that car right now?"-end

No, but like I said, the number of people who keep their cars that long is low. And the ones who DO keep the car that long BETTER BE smart enough to buy an extended warranty, Hybrid or not, $10K car or $75K car.

And how much they can get for that car right now has NOTHING TO DO with the $600 repair or the $2100 repair. It will be based on Blue Book value, like 99% of every other car sale in the USA.

zodiac2004

No, but like I said, the number of people who keep their cars that long is low. And the ones who DO keep the car that long BETTER BE smart enough to buy an extended warranty, Hybrid or not, $10K car or $75K car.



Duh. It doesn't matter if the original owner keeps the car or not. Reliability records have nothing to do with length of ownership.
What matters is how the car performs as it ages, no matter if it's the second or third owner. If you say "whoever owns that car from 100K miles on better have an extended warranty", you are in fact saying that the car is inferior to most other Toyota and Honda ICE cars.

And how much they can get for that car right now has NOTHING TO DO with the $600 repair or the $2100 repair. It will be based on Blue Book value, like 99% of every other car sale in the USA

If there is a potential $2000 repair coming up, you can bet your life that affects how much that car is worth today. And if there are enough cases of the $600 or $2000 repair documented as the car approached 100K miles, you can once again bet that the book values will reflect it.

larsb

quote Gagrice-"And if there are enough cases of the $600 or $2000 repair documented as the car approached 100K miles, you can once again bet that the book values will reflect it."-end quote

Blue Book values to not CARE if a particular car has had $8000 in repairs. What brings the value down is THOUSANDS of that model car having repair issues on multiple components or one component failing at a high rate.

Cynical outsiders harping that a car "might have to replace a battery" sometime between 100K and 200K is NOT GOING TO AFFECT BLUE BOOK VALUES at all.

quote gagrice-"Reliability records have nothing to do with length of ownership."

Actually, they very much do have a relationship for Used Car buyers. If you are going to buy a fairly recent car, 2 or 3 years old, you are going to care WAY MORE about reliability ratings than if you are looking at a car with 100K plus miles on it. Anyone buying a car with that many miles will KNOW that they are setting themselves up with a modicum of risk. No one with any common sense is going to buy a 100K plus car and not expect to have costly repairs at some point.

And it is a fact that cars lose substantial Blue Book value when they get over 100K. That's because after that, things break more often and it is harder if not impossible to get a warranty. That's the nature of the business, and no Hybrids or TDIs will change that.

pjyoung

But I traded a 1999 Chrysler 300M for my Prius. It had 3 transmissions , A bad AC compressor and evaporator core, two bad window motors, a bad shifter cable... all in less than 60,000 miles. Yet....it won a JD Powers award.

stevedebi

"But I traded a 1999 Chrysler 300M for my Prius. It had 3 transmissions , A bad AC compressor and evaporator core, two bad window motors, a bad shifter cable... all in less than 60,000 miles. Yet....it won a JD Powers award."

I suspect that was a JD Powers initial quality award...

briham

Here are a couple of articles that might be helpful. There are still quite a few unknowns but I would love to own one.

http://www.automedia.com/driveSmart/dsm20040201ht/dsm20040201ht.a- sp?affid=

http://www.automedia.com/driveSmart/dsm20041001hg/dsm20041001hg.a- sp?affid=

http://www.automedia.com/autoReviews/2005/ford/escape/rts20041101- eh.asp?affid=

electrictroy

"Civic HX is a 2-door car, but I assure you it has a backseat. (I've driven it.) So up to 5 people. And about $6000 cheaper than the Hybrids, but still gets 40-44 mpg."

"Nice alternative. Wonder why it doesn't sell that well?"

.

Because Honda makes only a few thousand. I called every dealer in the Washington-Baltimore area, and only 2 had the Civic HX.

As for features, it's true that the HX doesn't have all the features of a Civic Hybrid or Prius, but I *don't want* those features. I don't need a navigation system or blu-tooth interfacing or fancy LCD screens. That's just more stuff to break down later & waste money fixing.

I like a basic car with a radio & air conditioning that takes me to work & gets me back home. The Civic HX does that, and only for ~$15,000, and still 40-44 mpg.

It's a good alternative for thrifty buyers.

Troy

isellhondas

HX Civics do not have air conditioning.By the time it's added the car costs more than an LX.

I'm trying to remember the last time I sold an HX or even had a customer ask about them. I'm really surprised they haven't been dropped by now.

explorerx4

couldn't find '05 hx under honda. for '04 it's there, but no options are listed as available.
a/c would be dealer installed?

electrictroy

Well the HX I drove had cold air, and it was still ~$3000 cheaper than the Hybrid.