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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "These Cooper's continue to ride really well. The traction in snow is somewhere between the PAX and the Goodyear Triple Treads that I had tried."

    Interesting. We currently have one van on TripleTreds and another on the Cooper CS4s, and in a side-by-side test, the Coopers blow the Goodyears away in the snow. I wonder if different size tires perform differently (both of ours are 215/65 R16).

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Considiering that i work in the service departmentof a HONDA dealership, i hear a lot of complaints a bout them. The average person gets 30-40k miles out of a set depending on proper INFLATION, ROTATION and, of course, TIRE ROTATION.

    I wish people would stop complaining so much about it! YOU OWN A $40,000 VEHICLE!!! With a little research you would've seen that these tires are a METRIC size and usually used on European luxury cars. How about taking some responsablility as an OWNER of, in my opinion, the nicest van on the market. Did you know on a BMW X5 you have to replace the entire rotor on ever brake job? The Odyssey is not that expensive of a vehicle to own and it's not HONDA'S fault that; you were either to busy using this site to "jew" the dealership down on price to do some research on the vehicle or just to lazy.

    Luckily, for all of us, Honda has made the PAX tires an optional feature. Please note that they did not do this because they are "bad" tires. However, Honda takes pride in their customer service. They actually listen to what you want and don't want. It's obvious that you would rather have your wife and children on the side of a busy interstate at night instead of spending and extra $400. The choice is yours.... :mad: :P
  • I agree with you servicedude. I don't understand the cost argument people have. However, Honda didn't make it optional because the take pride in customer service. They made them optional because their are no less then 3 classaction suits against them PLUS Michelin discontinued the tire last fall. Mich will continue to make the tire for the forseeable future, however, the PAX program is officially now dead.

    I fault Michelin for this mess not Honda. They rolled out a new tire technology and didn't support it. Never required their Tire dealers to stock, or service it. Which made it hard to repair.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    TIRE ROTATION! NOW THERE'S SOMETHING I NEVER THOUGHT OF DOING!

    Where were you servicedude when I was driving my 05 Touring 150 miles east of El Paso and the next Honda PAX dealer was 200 miles away in Fort Worth?

    If only the PAX tire were capable of lasting 200 miles on the rim!
    If only the next PAX dealer's service department weren't going to be closed for another 62 hours (It was 5pm on Friday)!
    If only I had bought a van with regular tires--then I could have changed the tire myself (or my wife and children could have called AAA to put on the spare if they had been stranded).

    If only Honda had disclosed that PAX tires would last half as long, cost twice as much to replace, and be as rare as hen's teeth in many parts of the country!

    I agree with your comment that the Honda Odyssey is the nicest van on the market--that's why we currently own our fourth since 2001. That still doesn't mean that I'm happy that Honda failed to disclose the potential problems with PAX tires when they were extolling the virtues ("Your wife and kids won't get stranded on the side of the road"). (Unless the tire failure happens in a rural area, or at night, or over the weekend).

    By the way, as a BMW owner, I can tell you that the X5 comes with a warranty that covers the bad rotors up to 50k miles. That's right, they're free. Even if they weren't, a bad rotor wouldn't leave you stranded in the desert.

    You're right: we're lazy, cheap and irresponsisble. Have fun rotating our 84 lb PAX tires.
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    "The average person gets 30-40k miles out of a set depending on proper INFLATION, ROTATION and, of course, TIRE ROTATION."

    Could you enlighten me about difference between ROTATION and TIRE ROTATION?

    Krzys

    PS Somehow I think you have vested interest in making PAX fiasco look rosier than it really is.

    PS2 Please name European luxury cars that use PAX system:

    "With a little research you would've seen that these tires are a METRIC size and usually used on European luxury cars."

    Maybe they (European luxury manufacturers) learned a lesson with TRX? Another abandoned Michelin idea.
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    vinny,

    "Have fun rotating our 84 lb PAX tires."

    What difference does it make how much or how little they weigh? You don't have to lift them to rotate them.

    Regards, JEff
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    "What difference does it make how much or how little they weigh? You don't have to lift them to rotate them."

    No difference to Odyssey drivers. The weight affects Odyssey maintainers such as the gentlemen to whom I was responding. You missed the point of the jab.

    BTW, I rotated my tires religiously every 5k miles and my PAX tires were well into the wear markers at 35k miles. As I've said in previous posts, the lowest replacement cost I found was $1100--twice as much as a new set of non-PAX tires that would have lasted nearly twice as long (as opposed to the 10-15% replacement cost differential advertised by Honda dealers).

    I've never argued that PAX tires are a bad idea. However, my contention has always been that Honda failed to disclose the serious disadvantages of PAX: high replacement cost, poor availability, shortage of service centers, and lower tread life. How did I fix my PAX problem? I bought another PAX-equipped Odyssey, but only after I moved from the desert southwest to the east coast. In the densely-populated northeast, I can almost always find a PAX tire service center within the run-flat range of the tires or an open car rental agency when no PAX replacement is available. I've chosen to accept the trade-off of higher cost/lower tread life versus improved safety. The differene this time is that I made an informed decision--something Honda denied me the first time around. I would not have bought another PAX-equipped Odyssey if I still lived in Tucson.
  • Mike

    At the end of the day, we all can agree that the Honda Odyssey is a great vehicle Yes, there could be some Improvements; all in all it is a great vehicle.

    My ask for American Honda is to offer the owners of the Odyssey (2005-2007)an alternative to PAX tires for those they own them without voiding our (extended) warranty. I wish I would have know the following:
    1) Cost of replacement.

    I had no idea PAX tires are this expensive to replace and I did a fair amount of research prior to my purchase. Depending on the dealer, in Michigan four tires will cost you about $1200. In Chicago, four tires will cost you $1600 installed. I have seen them as high as $2000 for the PAX’s tires. An alternative is to buy regular tires, of my choice, from just about any one for $500 installed on the Odyssey EX-L

    2) Performance:
    My personal experience is 28K miles on my PAX tire when they should have been replaced. Not knowing much about PAX, I was amazed to replace the tires at 32K miles. By far the worst set of tires I have ever owned and with so-so performance.

    3) Service:
    You must go to the Honda Dealer because no one else has the parts or the equipment to repair or replace them, not even 12 Michelin dealers in Chicago land area. The dealer equipment cost is 15K alone. I hope you do have a flat over the weekend? Try to service your Vehicle on a non metropolitan area during non business hours. You will spend more than $400 for a tire, tow and hotel.

    Honda made a choice to manufacture a Mini Van with the PAX system. I firmly believe that Honda needs to resolve the issue of the PAX’s debacle. We, your customer, believes that we are taken to the cleaners as it relates to cost to value on the PAX tires system. Cost to Value is one of Honda’s strengths and it is why Honda has such a loyal following.

    Mike, I encourage Honda Customers to demand the best from you, the dealership, and America Honda (800-999-1009) and give us an option over PAX.
    Suggested Solutions:

    ---->Subsidize the cost of new PAX tires (Tactical)
    ---->Warranty non-PAX configuration (Strategic)
    ---->Trading in PAX for Non PAX Wheels and Rims

    I am sure there are several dozen options available.

    Mike, as the Edmunds spokesperson, why can I not buy Odyssey EX rims, tires and TSP’s and leverage on the Odyssey Touring Edition 2005? Maybe you can sell this to American Honda as a viable solution. With Honda changing tires and rims in 2008 model year, there is a perception that PAX system is not working. Please give your existing customer that same option.

    Remember customers’ satisfaction and loyalty, the loyalty keep us coming back to buy and service our cars.

    Sincerely a loyal Honda customer since 1988

    Patrick

    p.s. Mike, a new word for your vocabulary is “Negotiate”. :D
  • lechardlechard Posts: 2
    Great posting!!! As an owner of a 2005 Ody Touring with only 28K miles and in need of new tires to pass State Inspection, I second the motion that American Honda give us alternatives which would allow us other options than the PAX tires.
  • carguy74carguy74 Posts: 18
    hey guys, belle tire is the only place that i know of that will and can do pax tires. at least here in michigan. belle tire has the machine to do 4 tires within an hour or something like that. not sure how long it takes though. honda has now given the consumer the option to get vehicle with or without pax. this i know for sure. at first, honda was gonna put pax on all honda vehicles but decided not to go that route. besides all that, as far as i know, only the dealer and belle tire have the equipment to do pax tires.....how much belle tire charges, i don't know. but i do also know that they don't last very long-wears out very fast. the tires at the dealers are around 165.00 each... and if you need the internal ring, than that'll bring the price up to 200 per tire... bet seldom do you need the ring. if a dealer says you need a ring or all the rings replaced, ask to see them, either that or they just trying to sell u rings for no reason. only time the rings should be replaced is if there is damage to the ring. but remember, each technician has his own opinion on if he thinks the ring should be replaced or not....
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    The support ring only has to be changed in two instances:

    1) You drove with no (or very, very low) air pressure: you "ran flat."
    2) The tire store technician damaged it.

    I suppose you might damage it if you hit a very big pothole or log in the road, but it doesn't sit close behind the tread when things are properly inflated. Normal driving wouldn't do it.

    I've been to trade shows where tire mounting equipment was on display. Several companies were showing PAX-worthy machines. I asked one company rep if he could demonstrate the PAX procedure for me. He happended to have an Odyssey wheel and tire on hand.

    It's complicated. It took him, hustling all the way, a good 12 or 13 minutes. The ring has to come off and go back on during the process. There are fiddly little plastic wedges and they have to re-coat the inside of the new tire with a packet of approved gel.

    My local tire store, who sells a lot of Michelins, says they won't bother getting certified because the time spent changing-out a set of PAX tires is a big issue. He said that even if they ignored the cost of the machine, they still wouldn't make any money. They can mount three or more sets of normal tires in the same time. Internet tire sales have cut into their margins, he said, so sales volume (which is regulated by how many customers they can serve in a given day) is important to their profitability. No wonder PAX-certified shops are hard to find.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    How much distance was there between the ring and the tire? I'm asking because $100 to fix a flat is over the top expensive. I've considered plugging mine, but have heard the gap is too narrow to get the plug/tool into.

    Thanks.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Before you go plugging a damaged PAX tire yourself, you might want to call Michelin first. Depending on how many miles you have, they may replace the tire under warranty.
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    vinny,

    "No difference to Odyssey drivers. The weight affects Odyssey maintainers such as the gentlemen to whom I was responding. You missed the point of the jab.

    BTW, I rotated my tires religiously every 5k miles..."

    I think you missed my point. I rotate my PAX tires every 5,000 miles as well, when I change the oil and filter, and it's no more difficult than rotating the tires on my non-PAX car. The weight of the tire assembly is not relevant, one is no more or less effort than the other.

    Regards, JEff
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Jeff:

    You're right. I missed your point. Are you saying that the PAX assembly weighs the same as a standard tire and rim? Or are you saying that you don't lift them to rotate the tires? If it's the former, you're incorrect. The PAX assembly weighs a good 20 pounds more than the Michelin set-up off the EX-L. If you mean the latter, you must be using some kind of cart to roll around the tires? If you're doing the rotation yourself, I'm curious if you've had any problems with the TPMS? I've always used the dealer for rotations and oil changes.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Not that I have an Odyssey (I don't), however, I have rotated the tires on two of our TPMS equipped cars, and so far at least, I've not had a problem.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 451
    TPMS creates no problems for tire rotations at home. As long as the same 4 sensors are on the same car, the system works it out by itself.

    Putting an entirely new sensor on the car is where the dealer and his scan-tool need to get involved.

    I nearly tweaked my back when I pulled a 75 lb PAX assembly off of an Odyssey once (the standard ones weigh 50 lbs). But if you don't jack it up too high, they roll from corner to corner and it isn't so hard.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    I've been getting my tires rotated and the oil changed by the dealer every 5k miles. I generally pay more than I would if I went to someone other than the dealer, but I was under the impression that the TPMS sensors needed to be programmed when moved to a different position. Now that I know the truth, I'll be going to the cheap place (and watching while they do the work).
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    Vinny,

    I'm saying I don't lift the tires to rotate them. I agree that the PAX tires and wheel assemblies weigh a lot more that conventional tire and wheel assemblies, but since I don't lift them who cares how much they weigh? I just roll them along the ground - they're round, they roll as easily as any other tire.

    The TPMS sensors don't care in which position the wheel is mounted (left or right, front or back).

    Regards, JEff
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    shipo,

    "I nearly tweaked my back when I pulled a 75 lb PAX assembly off of an Odyssey once (the standard ones weigh 50 lbs). But if you don't jack it up too high, they roll from corner to corner and it isn't so hard."

    Exactly! You don't need to jack the vehicle up so high as to lift the tire off the ground, you only need to jack it enough to get the vehicle's weight off the tire and center the lugs in the wheel's holes. Then the tire and wheel will practically fall away from the vehicle by itself and you just roll it away.

    Regards, JEff
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Uhhh, is that a quote from me??? I don't remember typing that. :confuse:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    shipo,

    You're right. It was written by actualsize replying to you, I got the names backwards. I apologize for my confusion.

    Regards, JEff
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Okay, got it. ;)
  • dietrichdietrich Posts: 3
    3 days after selling our '05 touring, in need of its 2nd set of tires at 50k miles (yes, well maintained, rotated, etc.) got notification of class action lawsuit originated in California against Michelin and Honda. After many discussions with Honda customer no-service, trying to drill into their heads I don't want the tires warranted through them, only an alternative wheel solution had no option but to sell. In Denver only 4 places to get tires changed, takes 6-8 hours and a second mortgage, realized this is a short lived black eye on Honda that will be swept under rug as they phase it out. Hondas lack of customer support for their misguided venture has lost them a customer (was on our 4th Odyssey).
    '05 Odyssey also left my family stranded, out of cell range, on Berthoud Pass in winter due to fuel pump malfunction at 18k (slipping reliability as well?)
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    Has the class action suit been revived? I thought it got thrown out of court.
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    The class action was kicked out of Federal Court in California, but was re-filed in California State Court. We received a notice from Honda's attorneys saying that they were going to "have to" release our private ownership information because the bad old trial lawyers were coming after Honda's happy PAX customer list...what a crock and talk about on the ethics edge....shame on Honda!!!!!! Hell yes I want in the suit!!!! After the guy at Honda told me to take a hike and would not return my calls. All I wanted was a free spare tire for my brand new $40K plus Odyssey complete with spare tire comparment, jack, and tire changing tools, but now I want a bit more because of the fraudulent suppression.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Your van already has a spare tire compartment and jack. Take a look just inside the liftgate to the left.
  • autowriteautowrite Posts: 226
    Canada does not supply PAX tires but only supplies 16".
  • fountanefountane Posts: 6
    Are these problems happen to Toyota Sienna run flat tires too? All their AWD model has run flat tires.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Toyota chose to use RFTs that fit on conventional rims. While it can be no picnic to find RFTs to fit the Sienna, they do mount up pretty much the same way as most other higher end tires, and pretty much any shop can do the work, just so long as they don't have an old tire machine.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
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