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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • gotribegotribe Posts: 101
    There are clearly pros and cons here--some subjective and emotional (safety of changing tire at side of road). This sounds awful trite but perhaps we can agree to disagree on the subjective, and try to stick to more facts (price, availability of infrastructure, realworld mileage of PAX tires, realworld experiences when someone gets a flat, etc)
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    gotribe---Amen. Let's try to post if we have NEW info to provide.

    We have 14,989 miles on our 2006 Touring, and so far the tires are wearing evenly and the tread looks good. Would forecast at least 30K to 40K of use at this point. It is interesting that some are reporting replacement needed at 15K to 20K on 2 tires. The sidewalls on the PAX tires are more flexible than on traditional RFTs due to the inner ring, but consequently they may be more prone to tread wear if the tires are not properly inflated or rotated.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "...and try to stick to more facts (price, availability of infrastructure, realworld mileage of PAX tires, realworld experiences when someone gets a flat, etc)"

    Okie doke.

    Price: seems to be all over the place regarding PAX tires. Some report less than $200 just for the tire; some report having to PURCHASE an entire wheel/tire assembly from their Honda dealer for in excess of $600.

    Availability of infrastructure: seems to be hit or miss. However, it appears as though availability is getting better. If you KNOW that local availability will not be a problem, and you don't anticipate much long range driving, then this probably isn't an issue.

    Realworld mileage: also appears to be all over the map, with some owners reported premature wear. However, it appears as though this is due to rapid wear JUST on the shoulder of the tire and is not necessarily indicative of premature wear across the entire face of the tire (which begs the question of shouldn't Honda/Michelin have KNOWN about this issue during preproduction testing and fine tuning of the suspension settings?).

    Realworld experiences getting a flat: well, this kinda is determined by whether or not the van's owner was able to have their PAX tires fixed/replaced or not.....

    Other than tire wear, I'm honestly trying to figure out just WHAT the benefit of the PAX system is compared to normal runflats?
  • I have already stated the advantage of PAX over conventional RFT. They do not de-rim. It is well known in my legal circles that other RFTs will de-rim. Wheels that will accept a conventional tire. A RFT with stiff sidewalls, you don't have to be a brain scientist to see the dynamics at play here. Why do you think the PAX rim is so wide at the shoulder and why do you think you need specialized equipment to bust it off the rim? You might be a self professed RFT "expert" but why do you think Honda, the "safety for everyone" company selected a new technology over the current one if it is better?
  • gotribegotribe Posts: 101
    Ahem..I thought we were beginning to make some progress with rorr's factual post--good summary. But then I read timconnery's nastiness and guess wer'e back to bad behavior again!! I'm out of here for awhile.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "It is well known in my legal circles that other RFTs will de-rim."

    I'm going to have to challenge you on this one. Please substantiate your claim or stop spouting this bilge.

    I've personally witnessed many Run Flat equipped 3-Series E90 BMWs at track events pushing the absolute limits of tire adhesion and making extremely severe avoidance maneuvers in the process. To this point I've yet to see a single "derim" event during a race, and I've got to believe that if conventional RFTs were prone to rim separation, that would certainly be the place for it to happen.

    Now, could it be that a certain make/model of RFT suffers from rim separation? I have no problem believing that that possibility exists, however, a narrowly defined failure such as this does not make for a blanket indictment of an entire technology.

    For you to prove your point, you're going to have to prove that ALL makes and models of conventional RFTs in ALL sizes are prone to rim separation. Your move.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • they de-rim on a minivan when they are flat. It is very difficult to keep a tire on the rim when it is flat and you have a large steering wheel input. The point I was making was PAX is a better technology for the application we have been discussing.
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Again, our perspectives are quite different. I've driven from Ohio to California and back three times over the years and never had a flat. Yet the safety of PAX is of value to me. And I understand that in so doing in my Touring that I might get stuck somewhere along the line. Of course, there are other things that could break on the vehicle over a weekend and also lay us up until Monday.

    You, on the other hand, have suffered dual tire failures twice on trips and see the things the other way.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Again, our perspectives are quite different. I've driven from Ohio to California and back three times over the years and never had a flat."

    Over the years I've made literally dozens of trips between the left coast and some point east of the Mississippi, and I don't think I've ever had a flat on any of those trips. Well, not in a car at least, I rode my bicycle from San Diego to Detroit in 1974 and got lots of flats on that trip.

    Thinking about this further, I had a simultaneous 4-Flat event near my (then) home in Chicago when I ran over some construction debris in the Belmont Harbor area, and other than that, I don't think I've ever had a car tire go flat outside of the New York Metro area or New England. I moved east fourteen years ago and between my wife and I, we've literally had dozens of flats, most of which were near our home, however, the two separate 2-flat events were on trips and a fair distance from anywhere (parts of New England are fairly unpopulated).

    For the slashed sidewall two tire failure that I mentioned in a previous post, had I had the PAX system on that car, I would most certainly have been stranded for at least a day as no tire, GFT, RFT or PAX would have survived the slashing. The other twin failure occurred after running over a board with nails in it that fell from the pickup truck in front of me. That might very well have been a moment where RFTs of some sort would have bailed me out, however, I saw the sun glint off the nails just before running over the board. I immediately pulled off the highway and as luck would have it, found a tire store right at the end of the ramp. When I got out of the van I could hear hissing from both left side tires. By the time the folks from the shop got out to my car, both tires were already flat. Fifty bucks and 30 minutes and I was back on the road.

    Getting back to the crux of the matter, other than the very dubious claims made by timconnery, I have yet to see anything that would make me choose a PAX equipped vehicle over one with conventional RFTs.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    they de-rim on a minivan when they are flat. It is very difficult to keep a tire on the rim when it is flat and you have a large steering wheel input. The point I was making was PAX is a better technology for the application we have been discussing.

    Ahhh, the plot thickens. They allegedly derim only when mounted on a minivan and driven flat. Now, more to the point, are you claiming that ALL makes, models and sizes of conventional RFTs will derim if driven when flat on a minivan? I'm thinking that is unlikely. Please be more specific as to which brand(s), model(s) and size(s) you know for a fact have suffered rim separation.

    The ball's back in your court.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • I remain puzzled as to why Michelin went with unique sizing. It seems dreadfully short-sighted

    This is for safety reason. this way it's impossible for people to put regular tire onto PAX design wheel :shades:
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    This is for safety reason. this way it's impossible for people to put regular tire onto PAX design wheel.

    What's so safe about that? I want regular tires on my cars.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • well I am in a market for a minivan and ody touring has all feature we want however it comes with PAX tire which been around for few years but hardly mainstream ( In US, it was previously only available on Roll royce phantom). I read on different forum including odyseyclub, VTEC.net epinions. Initially, there is a lot of dissatisfaction with PAX because of treadwear, cost of replacement.
    Like any new technology it takes a while before it catches on. Honda and michelin are aware of the issue and had been increasing the capability of the dealership by making them purchasing the PAX tire changer. This will reduce the cost of replacement ( there is no need to replace with the new tire /wheel combo anymore which costing around $600 for each tire/wheel) and I looked up the michelin website. they have pax system dealer locator.
    it looks like there are more and more tire shop has the capability ( I would still want to confirm these before buying the touring) here is the website
    link title

    While there are few different concept for RFT. there is no perfect system yet. each system has it's short coming.
    tirerack has a good overview
    link title

    As far as the treadwear it may varies because people driving habit are different. it'll wear quicker on someone who like to turn their steeringwheel while the car is stationary, driving more in the city.

    I also found a site with a good overview of PAX tire. Hopefully it'll help our understanding of PAX tire like people who's still on the fence regarding the PAX technology.

    link title

    I have driven the 2006 ody touring and 2006 sienna limited AWD. both equip with RFT but differnt technology. Sienna with Dunlop DSST (self supporting) The ride actually not too harsh. I did not compare it with limited with out RFT.
    Toyota suspension are much softer than ody so the ride feels OK. On the other hand, Honda's ride is always firmer compared to toyota so I guess PAX system would be a better choice

    Shippo I undestand your view about your frustration why PAX system only comes with metric system tire 460 mm or 17.5 inch wheel. THe answer again for safety. Because the wheel design are different, it's not made for conventional tire. If it is in 17 or 18 inches there will be some one out there who will disregard all the warning and go ahead install regular tire. Guess what, in our litigous society, it's just put unnecessary liability to Honda and Michelin.

    As for me, I need a minivan but I'll probably can wait for another 6 months. I am leaning toward odyssey but I would like to know whether Honda will stich with PAX on 2008 ody when they will have some minor changes.

    New technology comes with a price. PAX is more expensive to replace because there is no competition for michelin. But if it's 200 for tire and 30 for installation. it's not bad. yeah $80 more expensive per tire for not worrying about changing tire is not too bad.
    The increase unsprung weight (25 lb heavier for each tire/wheel)is nore of a concern to me. Yeah handling will suffer but in a minivan we maynot notice it as much. I do more concern about it's effect on the steering system for 50 lb addtional weight. But so far there is not much complain from touring owner other than tire wear, more expensive replacement cost and availability.

    So let's eduacte each other so we can make good purchase decision

    peace
    Stuman
  • user777user777 Posts: 3,341
    i think the "let's educate each other" is a good plan. ultimately the value someone sees in a technology will be different depending on who you're speaking with.

    for me - i don't own a vehicle with RFT or PAX technology tires, and today wouldn't value either technology, not at their current price points anyway.

    what i would opt for and would perhaps value as a new vehicle purchaser (or aftermarket product purchase) is some form of reliable tire pressure monitoring that would not force me into any one particular brand tire, rim, size, yet would enhance my situational awareness.

    i know though there is no substitute for a look-around before and after each drive.

    so maybe you guys might have a shoot-out on active pressure probes vs. wheel speed detection technology. that's the only aspect of the bigger technology debate that i value. :shades:
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    it may have not detected "4 tire going flat" adventure by shipo.

    Also if all tires are underinflated (temperature drop for example) it will fail too.

    If I am going to have one (it is mandated so I WILL have one) I will choose direct pressure measuring system.

    Krzys
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 443
    I remain puzzled as to why Michelin went with unique sizing. It seems dreadfully short-sighted.

    The unique sizing is necessary because of the way PAX tires are mounted and dismounted, and the way the support ring slides on and off. The outer and inner rim diameters have to be different from each other. And for PAX to work the way it does, the beads have to be totally different from regular ones. So even if the rims were straight 16 or 17-inchers, a standard tire couldn't be mounted. Its just as well that they chose metric -- it makes it less likely that an unknowing tire store would try to force standard tires on.

    I was at SEMA recently, and met a tire mounting equipment rep who was showing off a PAX-capable machine. He mounted and dismounted a Honda Odyssey PAX tire while I watched.

    I've mounted many tires myself, using the newest standard machines, but I can tell you that the PAX procedure is a very complicated process, and would be hard to explain in text. I can see why Michelin insists on special training and dealer certification. In short, the beads are twisted on, rather than stretched over a lip. There's a little plastic shim you have to use, and the rollers have to be in just the right spot and of the right shape. The plastic support ring has to come off and go back on during the process.

    The difficulty is the same whether a new tire is being changed or a flat is being repaired. You have to mount and dismount in either case.

    The $14~17k machine, with pre-programed PAX dimensions and specialized rollers, would be a necessity, in my opinion. I wouldn't want to struggle with a $3,500 upgrade to a standard machine that would lack the automation necessary to do the job efficiently and without swearing.

    I was surprised to learn that a special gel must be spread around the inside of the tire. Not for mounting lubrication, but to lubricate the tire against the support ring after the tire goes flat and starts rubbing against the ring. If it is left out or improperly applied (there's a special spreader tool too) then the 100 mile run flat distance is impossible.

    The rep told me that Honda/Acura intends to have all dealers equipped and trained to mount and dismount PAX tires by the end of 2006, eliminating the need for the exchange program. We'll see.

    He also told me that Michelin tire dealers can only become certified if they meet certain conditions. He said the big Michelin dealer chains are all set or are in the process of gearing up. However, smaller independents might balk at the requirements: They have to have the right sort of machine, complete the training, and agree to keep a certain number of PAX tires (and the gel, and the shims, and a spare support ring or two) on hand or warehoused very close by. I was not able to talk with Michelin to confirm this, but plan to do so.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 443
    tirerack has a good overview...

    Tirerack's overview has one flaw. Self-Sealing tires are not run-flats. You cannot drive on them with no air in the tire. Zero-pressure running capability is what defines an RFT.

    Yes, they do is prevent some leaks. If you drive over a small nail, a substance inside the tire is drawn into the hole by the outrush or air, sealing it.

    But they are not run-flats.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 443
    It may have not detected "4 tire going flat" adventure by shipo.

    Also if all tires are under inflated (temperature drop for example) it will fail too.


    Exactly. I've done TPMS certification testing, and the federal government's test procedure includes a 4-flat tire scenario where all four tires are set 25% below the placard pressure.

    The government standard is "technology neutral", but I don't know how a wheel speed sensor system would pass this part of the requirement. I expect every OE will go with direct.

    If I am going to have one (it is mandated so I WILL have one) I will choose direct pressure measuring system.

    Choosing is difficult, as its hard to know what the car has by looking at it. Metal valve stems used to be a dead giveaway, but I saw rubber ones with direct sensors behind them at SEMA.

    By 2008, all cars and light trucks will have to pass the 4-low tire scenario, so you'll be covered, however the OE does it. Any new applications in '07 probably do too.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • user777user777 Posts: 3,341
    i'm thinking vehicle speed detection methods would be problematic to implement the 4-wheel failure scenario sure, but then all tires being low isn't the sort of thing one would really be looking for situation awareness on. my thinking is it's the one or two tire low scenarios that is where the value is.

    anyway, i thought one of the potential issues with a vehicle speed sensor differential detection method is that if you had a RFT mounted, the tire wouldn't change circumference significantly enough to cause the discrepancy to have a reliable alerting mechanism. :surprise:
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Thanks for a most informative post, actualsize. Another thing that's different about a PAX rim is its lip - its configuration is totally unlike that on a conventional wheel

    I guess that given that there is no possible way that a conventional tire could fit on a PAX rim, the fact that the rim is a unique size matters not at all.
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