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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Technically it is very possible; however, most dealers will absolutely refuse to do it at their expense, especially post-sale.

    If you decide to de-PAX yourself, you have lots of options that range from new Honda wheels and GFT rubber through a complete aftermarket set.

    Keep us posted on how you make out.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    You could have gotten your Ody without PAX at time of sale, but you're probably out of luck now. You should take time to read through this discussion to learn the pros and cons of PAX. For most of us, it seems that lack of disclosure at time of sale was the biggest concern. Here's a quick and oversimplified summary of PAX concerns:
    1) The tires don't last as long as regular tires (35k miles max);
    2) They cost three times as much to replace (it used to be much more than that);
    3) When you need a replacement tire, it may be difficult to find a qualified service center with the right equipment; and
    4) If you can find a PAX service center, the chances that it has the required parts in stock are pretty slim.

    Some complain about dimished ride quality and handling, but I figure that you should have noticed that when you test drove the vehicle.

    When I bought my 2006 Touring, the dealer told me that all Honda dealers would have the special PAX equipment and that the replacement cost differential would be 10-15%. He didn't mention poor tread life and actually praised Michelin for its famous durability. At the time, I lived in Tucson and my wife and kids made many trips up to Phoenix to visit family while I was at work. The safety and security of tires that could be driven--even flat--all the way there offset the increased cost. What they didn't tell us was that if the van got a flat, my wife and kids might make it to Phoenix, but the van would probably be stuck there for days while one of the very few qualified dealers waited for one of the ridiculously over-priced tires to be shipped from the warehouse. At that time, a set of four PAX and the required additional parts would cost about $2400 installed.

    Forget about driving cross-country in early 2006 because it was as much as 500 miles between qualified PAX service centers (and PAX Tourings didn't come with spare tires)!

    When I traded my 2006 Touring for a 2007, I was fully aware of the PAX issues and I had moved to VA where there are more PAX dealers. I traded the 06 with only 35K miles on it because I wasn't willing to pay the $1600 quoted to replace the tires. I could have bought another brand, but we loved the Ody and the PAX-free Touring wasn't available yet. At least this time I knew what I was getting and made a conscious decision to trade off increased cost/less convenience for improved safety.

    Honda owed us all that information up front and they should not have promised a support network that they could not deliver. When the tread life issues surfaced, they should have simply offered free replacements instead of excuses.
  • bill517bill517 Posts: 6
    I have depaxed my Ody but I don't have the sensors installed. What sensors did you buy from Honda? Do you think I can use the ones on my old Pax tires?
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Most wheels will accept the TPMS sensors that came on your PAX wheels. I have heard a few sporadic reports of sensors not fitting, but like I said before, they'll fit most wheels.

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    If you can get them out easily - doubt it. Otherwise you need to purchase new Touring sensors from Honda $35 each +/-. I assume you depaxed with a Honda brand wheel. If not, I'm not sure if the sensors will fit an aftermarket wheel.
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    vinny,

    I've gotten 45,000 miles on my PAX tires. Twice now.

    Otherwise I agree with your list and commentary.

    Regards, JEff
  • oddy2007oddy2007 Posts: 1
    #1369 Jeff,

    Can you share your wisdom on how to get up to 45K on your PAX tires?

    I have been rotating mines every 3K and maintaining them at 39 PSI. Currently at 16K and the my tires are less than 1/8.

    I called dealers in Southern California. They all quoted about $1200 - $1400. Yike! This hurts badly through this economic period. :cry:

    MP
  • chmnjchmnj Posts: 5
    It will be tough negotiating, since you're already out of the dealership with the car. I bought a 2005 used Touring in January and dragged the negotiations out after the salesman had no doubt booked the sale, after I did research on PAX. He stuck to the Honda party line, which is that you can find something bad about anything on the Internet and many people swear by their PAX tires, and they haven't had any more complaints about them than they have about other aspects of the car. Eventually, I got them to eat half the cost to de-pax with snow tires. Then I kept the PAX tires and rims, figuring I'd get a season out of them.
  • zac7zac7 Posts: 2
    About 3 weeks ago with 22,300 miles, I replaced my PAX tires with new PAX at a Honda dealership. I had previously set up a claim with Michelin when I noticed the tires were wearing out too quickly and they wanted me to check back when the wear was down to 3/32.

    Michelin agreed to pay for half the cost of the tires so it cost me $944 for everything. The Honda dealership wouldn't reduce their charges for mounting balancing etc.

    The Honda dealership can't seem to balance the tires properly as I'm getting a shake in my steering wheel now at 70 mph when I never had any problems before the tire change. My 2006 Odyssey has been back twice since for rebalancing and now I have to take it in again.

    I counted 16 - 1/4 oz weights on my right front wheel, with them spread in two groups almost directly opposite each other.

    Is anyone else finding that the Honda dealers can't seem to balance the PAX tires or are they as the dealer says "hard to balance"? Perhaps I have an out of round tire because if I go above 70 to about 75 or 80 the steering wheel shake fades.
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    Driving style, maybe? I know that I drive a lot less aggressively now than I did 20-30 years ago. Otherwise, I don't know.

    I rotate my tires every 5,000 miles, each time I change the oil.

    A little over $1,200 is what I've paid for a set of 4.

    Balancing may be important, and tricky to get right. I had developed some vibration at about 65 mph before my last replacement, but afterward the replacement which included a balancing I have no vibration at highway speeds.

    Regards, JEff
  • stuman168stuman168 Posts: 27
    We purchased our 2007 touring because I like the idea of run flat. We had no problem
    with the tire and the wear seems okay considering other people been complaining.
    We mostly use it in town with a few long distance trip to CA, WA or BC.
    Last sunday, when we're driving home from our trip, we experience a tire puncture while I was driving 70-75 mph. First I heard a bang like something hit a wheel well.
    I check the MID to see the tire pressure to make sure it's not the tire. Initially, all tire pressure was 34 then within seconds the right rear number start to decrease from 34 to 3 fairly quickly. I slowed the vehicle and find a safe place to stop. It looked like flats but side wall is OK so I decided to drive @ recommended speed 50 mph while my wife tried to make some phone call. initially we called honda care and we're forwarded to michelin which pretty much useless. They told me I can safely drive the car @ 50mph for 125 miles. Unfortunately we're over 130 miles away from home and it's sunday afternoon. They can't help me since all the honda service are closed. I was in dilemma to drive all the way home thinking if they can certified the tire for 125 miles they are probably good for few more miles. I check the tire after driving 15 miles without exceeding 50 mph. the tire was quite warm but not burning hot while the other 3 tire was cool. Since I am driving with 2 toddler, I don't want to push it. So we drove to the honda dealer where we bought the car in metro portland area. We left the car there and we have to get another mean of transportation to get home. SInce the dealer can't sell me a spare tire or sell me a wheel tire combo. the next day I called the dealership and unfortunately their pax machine is down and may take a few days to get it fixed. luckily my local dealer has a working machine and the tire staff is loaning me a paxtire/wheel ( used pax tire/wheel and kinda worn) so I can drive 100 miles to my local dealership.

    I guess from this experience I'll get a spare tire for my car and if I travel to remote area I may consider dePAXing but for driving in town my wife will probably prefer
    the PAX because she can keep on driving without changing tire (in town)
  • mixa1mixa1 Posts: 4
    I dePAXed 3 months ago, paid $2000 for the new wheels and tires and now is planning to go to a small claim court. I'm not sure if I shall sue my local Honda dealership where I bought my Odyssey or Honda USA that does not have headquarters in Texas. Any suggestions?
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    How many miles did you get on the PAX ? I'm not admitted in TX and never practiced there, however one I thing I do know is several counties in TX are very pro-plaintiff. Whether you can sue Honda USA depends on the jurisidction requirements in your local small claims court. You can definitely sue your local dealer in the county where they're located. Good chance you can sue Honda USA too if they do business in your county, also check to see who their resident agent is in TX for service of process.

    Small claims courts tend to be user friendly, I sugggest calling the clerks office after your review their website.

    One thing to bear in mind, you must opt out of the class action settlement which was just mailed out to Ody owners. Of course risk is that you may lose in sm claims but in my view the settlement is so miniscule for depax owners, doesn't much matter.

    Hope this helps
  • jaretijareti Posts: 1
    Not sure if this would be relavent information for sm claims or not. My experience with dePAxing has shown significantly improved handling and reduced stopping distance of the van. I haven't officially tested this, but my seat of the pants tests suspect a significant difference. If this can be proven with official testing somehow it could be an important safety note that may be grounds for a recall. I'm told that each PAX wheel weighs around 75 lbs that's about 35 - 40 lbs heavier than your typical rim and tire and less rotating mass hanging off the axles is likely the reason most drivers notice different handling characteristics when they dePAX.

    There's also issues with how the PAX tire profile doesn't align with the van's suspension properly hence the premature wear on the outer shoulders of the tires. If you mostly drive the van with a couple of kids most of the time (practically empty) you will see very premature tire wear on the outer shoulders (15k in my case). This issue was pointed out to another owner by a mechanic, but i don't remember who or where.

    Every mechanic and tire professional i talk to about this is stunned by this product and how simply awful it is compared to existing tire technology. This whole thing has to be at the top of the list of the worst technology debacles in automotive history.
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    It was another bright idea from Michelin.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelin_TRX

    Krzys
  • mixa1mixa1 Posts: 4
    Thanks for your reply. I got 35K on my original PAX tires, but the main reason I decided to dePAX was the ugly experience I got with fixing the flat PAX tire few months prior to that. I had to spend half a day to find a dealership where they had proper equipment and $405 to fix a simple nail in the tire. I was fortunate that it happened on Saturday and near Austin (I live in Houston) - otherwise we would be stuck there for another day.

    I have already studied State Bar of Texas website and read everything they have on the small claims. I have also found that CT Corporate System (apparently the law firm) is the registered agent of American Honda Motor Co in Texas. Their headquarters are in Dallas so it seems to me that if I want to sue them I would have to go to the court in their county. That is why I'm considering filing a suit against my local dealership for failing to inform me about all the limitations of the PAX tires such as higher-than-expected replacement costs, difficulty getting repairs and excessive wear and absence of a spare tire.

    I have already opt out of the settlement. Do you know where I can get Appendix A to support my claims? Any other advice before I talk to the office clerk? Appreciate your help!
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    short answer is court wouldn't be interersted in that. I don't think there's any evidence pax are unsafe, the big problem here is that they're unreasonably expensive and impratical to replace. Handling, stopping distance and the like aren't grounds for litigaton since those are product characteristics that all vehicles and tires have (some better than others), not defects or undisclosed limitations like having to go to a Honda dealder to replace them at $300 per.

    Agreed on your observations, identical to my own experience. Every tire person and a few Honda folks all said the same thing, Michelin created a disaster, great in theory but impractical for the real world. Sort of like the Concorde, it was great for those who were willing to pay $5K one way to go Mach 2.
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    A few comments:

    1) 35K makes it harder for your case. A judge can be convinced that is low but its not unreasonable, like 15-20K would be.

    2) I would sue whoever charged you $405 to remove a nail !!!! My dealer also lied to me, but in fairness, I got a nail a few weeks after taking delivery and they plugged it. I know there's a lot out there about how pax can't be plugged, but I have mine to prove it.

    3) CT is a corporate agent firm, not a law firm. Just bc they're in Dallas doesn't mean you can't sue them where you bought the car. Not saying you can, I can't evaluate that, but I would ask the clerk to guide you on how to determine whether you can obtain personal jurisdiction in small claims. Don't be afraind to call them more than once.

    On Appendix A, I haven't looked at the materials yet but I will revert ...
  • Since my van is out of warranty, I wasn't too concerned about swapping out the pax system. I de-paxed my '06 using 17" wheels and tires from TireRack, and the oem tire monitors. I got about 35k out my original pax tires and opted to replace them with the Sport Edition wheels and Continental tires. I didn't bother disassembling the pax wheels, so I bought new tire monitors and the entire spare tire kit from the local dealer. The independent tire installer had to use washers to shim the valves/monitors to the rims, otherwise the valve threads are too short to secure them. Everything looks and works great. While it cost almost as much to de-pax the van as the dealer was charging to put new pax tires on, it'll save a lot of money on the next set of tires. It might even save some money on gas and brakes since the new wheels are a lot lighter than the original system.
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    I think Annex A is what they sent us in the mail
  • bill517bill517 Posts: 6
    I live in Houston and when I depaxed my tires last July at a Goodyear dealer in Pearland the Honda dealer said the sensors wouldn't work on the Honda rims we bought. After reading so many of the comments from people saying they would work, I cut open the old Pax tires and removed the sensors. The Goodyear dealer put the sensors in with no washers and so far they have worked fine. I am really unhappy with the way Honda has treated me on this. Worse than not helping they kept giving me false information.
  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    Congrats!

    I guess you're going to trash your PAX tires, so reusing the sensors was okay. Most folks, myself included, opted for new touring sensors and sold their PAX tires on ebay.

    Did you get a spare? I bought one in a junk yard for $20 and bought the mounting kit (washer/bolt) from Honda for $12.

    W.
  • bill517bill517 Posts: 6
    I bought a new spare from the Goodyear dealer not realizing how expensive they are. I advise all to go to the junk yard.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    The settlement allows a reimbursement of $110 for the spare tire. Was it much more than that?
  • bill517bill517 Posts: 6
    The wheel was $60 and the tire was $175.
    I haven't received anything on the settlement, is the settlement a state or US suit?
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 774
    The case is being heard on June 23rd in the US District Court in Greenbelt, MD. You can call the attorneys at 866-540-5505 if you have any questions.
  • I read through a lot of the posts on this forum, and purchased new tires and wheels from Tire Rack. Our local mechanic said he could re-install the sensors on the new wheels, but he tried for a couple hours yesterday and could not get the PAX tires off the wheels. I called another company that specializes in after-market wheels, and they said they worked on run-flat tires and could handle it, and after only 30 minutes today they gave up!
    It looks like my choices are to (1) buy new sensors (the folks this morning quoted us $200 for the set); (2) convince our Honda dealer (O'Neil in Overland Park, KS. if anyone is from Kansas City area-they have been absolutely no help at all so far) to use their machine to remove the tires and sensors so we can take them elsewhere to have them installed on the new wheels); or (3) find someone to cut a hole in the tires and remove the sensors.
    Any ideas? Anyone know of someone locally that can help?
    Thanks.
  • Just how did your local mechanic try to get the sensors out of the old wheels? The only way it can be done without the PAX Wheel machine is to cut open the sidewall, your option (3). If you read back a few years you will find posts from others that cut open their PAX tires and remove the sensors. The local Tire Fair shop priced me out at about $900. 00 for new aftermarket wheels and generic tires and they would cut out the old sensors. From the pictures I have seen posted on the web it is a good size opening (6x5) and you will need a good cutting tool for the job but it works!
  • Thanks. I will try to talk one of the places into doing that.
  • bill517bill517 Posts: 6
    I did it myself and it wasn't very hard. I used a hack saw and cut two slices on the side of the tire about 6 inches apart on either side of the valve stem. Then I used a razor knife to cut between the two near the rim and create a little flap that I could pull up. The valve unscrews very easily. I then stuck my hand in the hole and pulled out the sensor. The rubber near the rim is easy to cut with a knife but as you get into the side wall you need a hack saw because of the wire.
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