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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    I'm like you, Mr. Sonshine only I have the ODY with PAX. I got close to 40,000 on my first set of Pax with local and long vacation mileage. I am on my second set and have never had an issue. I now have a spare that has been partially paid by the Honda/PAX settlement for a some greater peace of mind, I guess :)
  • I am sad right along with you--we have an Acura RL 2006--bought as a dealer demo at a price we thought was wonderful. The PAX tires have lasted almost to 50,000mi.--more than most PAX owners experience--but I shudder at the availability and the cost should I need a replacement at some point--flat tire or worse...As fate would have it, we never had a flat...But we are nervous every time and everywhere we go--FORGET THESE PAX TIRES. We frequent America's Tire Co., and they told us that they have changed these out several times, no complaints, at an initial cost--new rims as well as tires--of around $1500--ouch, but new PAX--actually old PAX(no longer made by Michelin)will cost about $2000+ including installation/labor, and then, NO GUARANTEE ON LABOR...do the Math...
    So we opted to change to a regilar tire system, and they installed for about $1500. La di dah--they are the wrong rims, because the pretty cover on the calipers in front say ACURA, but they are being scraped because of the close tolerance, and THAT CAN"T BE SAFE.
    I'm so glad that I believe in prayer. Jim in Stockton, CA
  • Totally irrelevant to this forum. The run-flat tires used by Toyota on the Sienna are not the same as the Michelin PAX tires used on the Honda Odyssey Touring.
  • seanportseanport Posts: 3
    After going back and forth about 10 times I decided to keep my Pax tires on my 2007 Odyssey after getting 42,650 miles out of the first set...even after having to get the van aligned after 5,000 miles as the Pax shoulders were wearing out fast. My secret was rotations every 5,000 miles and keeping the tire pressure at 40-41 lbs in front and back. So, I went to a local dealer and got lucky as people drive all the way from Arizona to San Diego to get Pax tires as they charged me less than $1,100 for four tires installed, with tax. Now, that is not cheap by regular tire standards, but I plan on trading in the van in a year or two and will not have any issues with non-Pax tires on a vehicle that says it has Pax tires. I would never get another Pax vehicle on purpose, but these tires have been just fine for me, but a tad bit expensive as we all know. Personally, I have not had a flat tire in about 25 years and the last flat was on tires that were down to the steal belts. My wife likes the rims and as she works downtown and about 15 miles from home, I know that I will not get a call to rescue her in a bad neighborhood, a real concern for us. I know that the van would probably ride even better on some softer tires, but I do enjoy taking the curves with what is a very large family vehicle.
  • Your reply is exactly what I needed to hear.... I am following those same rules on my 2007 Odyssey and very happy so far.... so a little more a little more expesnive, but safety is worth it, i agree. I even have tire insurance just so I can be reimbursed if anything on the tire itself goes wrong....! Thank you.
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    I keep my PAX tires inflated at 38 psi (first set also) after hearing about the accelerated treadwear at the outside edge and had no issues with my first set and my second set is wearing perfectly so far. I should have 80,000 miles when these wear out and then will be trading the van.
  • aggie76aggie76 Posts: 266
    Good to hear that my process matches several others with increased inflation and regular rotations. Got 32k on the first set and at that same mileage now on this set that I had rotated yesterday. Sufficient tread still there for next 6 months or so and will likely sell/trade van on new vehicle as wife wants an AWD for next winter. The Ody has been good to us, but the PAX are a challenge on the snow/ice that we have for 6-7 months of the year here in northern MN.
  • So I went in for tire rotation and balance on my Pax tires...Honda found bent right wheel rim ($650!!!) BUT, when I bought van knowing all about the Pax angst, I took out the extra warranty for Tire AND wheel coverage (and other stuff was included). I did that for several reasons: 1) PAX system and horror stores; 2) I bought a 3-year lease turn in vehicle, so I was not maintaining previously; 3) Everything goes wrong after 3 years!!; 4) 1 set of new PAX was put on van, but older set was kept as not worn out enough for dealer to change out to all 4 new tires.
    Dealer said I probably damaged rim over a pot hole (yes, I live in NY) so no surprise. Road Hazard coverage covers it. ONLY caveat is I lay out $ first, and they reimburse. So far, the Honda parts manager and I fine-tune combed through ALL the small print, front and back. and we see no reason why I would not be reimbursed. He is putting all his prior-approval on it and because I am having it replaceda at a Honda dealership, it will most likely not encounter and obstacles if I tried to do this anywhere else. We'll see. The warranty last five years, I rotate tires, and so far so good. Treading is wearing well. I replace 2 at a time when needed. We have the tire and wheel warranty for 5 years...so when that is done, I will depax out of them to Elbrus rims (17") IO5 and Kuhmo tires...all weather - about $90 a tire and rims are about $126, keeping same TPMS, and order new valve assemblies for the tires. I check all my technical questions and bounce EVERYTHING Honda tells me (take nothing for granted) at the College Hills Honda DePax helpd center!! http://www.diyhonda.com/2008/07/podcast-episode-131-honda-odyssey-depax.html.
    You can go to their collegehills honda website and check all this out. Ask for PAUL in parts as he is the voice on the DIY video for depaxing, etc. GREAT guy and so smart beyond Honda in general.
    And lastly, before I take any trips, rotate and I'm ordering a spare PAX tire to keep with me at all times!

    Good luck and I'll be checking in....DePax free IS worry free for sure. It CAN be done.
  • zboaterzboater Posts: 17
    Lots of good reading here. Have a 2006 Touring and got 40K miles on first set of PAX, and only 20K miles on second set (even with regular tire rotation, balance, and constant air pressure). So while I cringed paying $1,100 for my second set, I thought they would last for 40K miles- now it is clear I made a mistake. We plan to keep the car for another 60K – 80K miles – so seems de-PAX is way to go. So after local Honda dealers gave me the brush off (amazing), I read all forums and talked to College Hills. A few questions for those that have done their de-PAX:

    1) Do the 16” or 17” wheels make any difference (in performance or speedometer readings)?
    2) I was going to stick with the 16” 9 spoke Honda wheels, but noticed someone also went with the 2009 Acura TL 17" wheels – any issues here? Any other wheel favorites?
    3) Seems like 50/50 on using old sensors vs. new.
    4) Any benefit to keeping old wheels/tires (as option) for resale down the road – do not seem to be worth anything on ebay?
    5) Any other tips/tricks/hints to get to reliable/quality ride?

    Thanks for advice – looking forward to getting out of this mess.
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    I used 09 Pilot wheels, 17". If you're PAX are worn out completely, use old TPMS. I had about 3/32 tread left, sold my PAX set for about $300 net (most value was in the TPMS) and bought used Touring TPMS on Ebay for $75, worked fine. If you go latter route, don't let Honda dealer convince you to pay $150 to have new TPMS reset. If they are compatible w your model year Touring (and make certain they are), they should reset automatically. A lot of debate on this, but other forums insist Touring is the only Ody that resets TPMS sensors itself, in my case it was true even for used sensors.

    Also got a spare from a salvage yard, but make sure its compatible and that also takes a fair amount of hunting and luck.

    Thanks for info on getting 40 and then 20. That'll be a nice post to use in my upcoming trial against Honda/Michelin/dealer.

    One last note on ride. Since we went conventional, no issues except at speeds above 65-70, some vibration in steeting wheel, also when braking at high speeds. Balancing issue, I need to bring it in. Even if they can't fix, small price to pay for PAX-free.
  • k12riderk12rider Posts: 10
    Can you give me the details or a link to the PAX system lawsuit and settlement. I own an 06 touring which I bought used.
  • mbillombillo Posts: 8
    If I have an option, I would take the regular tire over a run flat any time. It is always easier to get a replacement for a regular tire than a runflat. Here is one other eason why.
    A friend had hin bimmer run flat nicked. His 335 does not come with a spare. There was no leak nothing but the dealer recommended a replacement for an almost new tire (less than 6K miles). $450 gone down the drain not to mention that the tire was special order one and while the tre was on order, he was fairly nerbous driving his car and his kids in it. The same thing can happen on a regular tire too but you know it can be sealed properly.
    On the Sienna AWD, its more out of necessity since there is no room for a spare.
  • k12riderk12rider Posts: 10
    I agree, I would also prefer a conventional tire rather than a run flat and definitely over the Michelin PAX run flat system. I really do not know why Michelin chose that type of system in which there is a honeycombed liner between the tire and the rim to accomodate the load if the tire deflates. Other run flats simply have a ridiculously stiff sidewall that accomodate the load. I do not like them because of the harsh ride as well as the difficulty in find a replacement while traveling. At least traditional run flats utilize the same sizing and mounting system as non-run flats.

    I also have owned several BMW's and this reminds me that I need to get a donut spare for mine because I think I went to a nin-run flat and do not have a spare. There is room for the spare.

    I try to avoid buying tires from car dealerships because they are so over priced and in my experience sometimes do not get the balancing right.

    I usually order tires from "The Tire Rack" and have someone mount them locally or buy wheels and tires from them and they pre-balance them. This goes back 20 years or more. Tire Rack usually has the best prices and definitely have the best recommendations as far as fit tire wear and so forth. They also have deals in which you can have the tires drop shipped to a local tire dealer who will install and balance them at a reduced fee.

    In HS, i worked on cars and mounted and balanced tires all the time. I also know that the best way to repair a small leak is to avoid the "fix-a-Flat" stuff unless you are stranded. The best way to fix a leak is to locate it and then disassemble the tire from the rim and use a one piece plug patch which fills the hole and then epoxies a patch to the inside of the tire. The fix a flat crap makes the epoxy not work well if at all.

    I had to replace the PAX Michelin tire due to a bad sidewall at $350+. I thought that was robbery, but $450 at the BMW dealer is ridiculous to the point that I would be looking for another source and a pro-rated warranty.

    If you have a Pax Touring Ody, like I do, I would consider a new set of wheels and tires from the tire rack rather than have to deal with the uncertainty of the PAX system. The michelins are really not that good in terms of grip or longevity regardless of the PAX system. All the Hondas I have owned have had Michelins on them - not very good in the rain.

    I have not looked at where a spare would be placed on a non run flat Ody, but I imagine it will be on the side of the rear cargo area.

    I am looking for info on the lawsuit stemming from the PAX system on the Ody as well as the beginnings of a lawsuti for the bad torque converter / tranny on the 05 -09 ody. I am hoping in light of Toyotas recent troubles, honda will take a different approach to resolving these issues.

    I won't hold my breath.
    Good Luck!
  • abcorleyabcorley Posts: 1
    I have a 2007 Nissan Quest with Michelin run flat tires. I was lucky to get 36,000 miles on these tires, considering many other run flat tire owners were not so lucky. Nissan never disclosed the issue on these tires, nor have they told me I would have to spend $1,500.00- 2,000.00 every 1.5 years for tires. My tires have chunks of rubber coming off of them, and I was told not to drive my car by a reputable dealership for safety reasons. These tires are seriously defective!! I called 1800 Nissan1 to get some answers, but of course they pass the buck to Michelin. I did call Michelin and they gave me 5 numbers to call – all which lead me to either a fax number, or a non-existing number. I had to call back and kept them on the phone supplying me with more number to call until I was able to find a someone on my other line to service my Pax Tires. When I did get a hold of someone, I hung up with Michelin, but was told by the Pax Tire service that Michelin would not prorate a tire over 30,000 miles. Not to mention I would have had to drive my unsafe 2007 Nissan Quest 40 – 50 mins to get to this Pax tire service location. Only to order the Pax Tire and then come back to have them replaced. Not to mention the closest Nissan dealership does not replace these tires. They sell them but do not service them, does that make any since?
    At this point I was ready to just replace the Rim and Tires myself, but when I started calling around to four different Nissan dealers, I was told the stability/suspension of the car depended on these tires. That the way the car was built was solely around these tires for stability and safety, and I could roll the car if I put any other Rims and Tires on my Nissan. Not to mention if I were to do that, I would lose any warranty on the car if I replaced the rim and tires with something else other than Pax Tires.
    Now you can imagine my astonishment when I heard that. So, at this point I was stuck with a top of the line Vehicle with all the bells and whistles, but I cannot change these tires for any others to get out of this mess, and I would be stuck with paying $1500.00 – $2,000.00 for tires ever 1.5 year or less…ARE THEY OUT OF THERE FRICKEN MIND!!!!
    How can a manufacture build a car that is solely dependant on these one set of tires. I would have thought a car would be built on its own manufacturing credibility merit, and not on tires. For heaven sake what were they thinking? I don’t know how a company would be allowed to sell a car like this, and get away with it.
    As one person there is not much I can do against a giant. I would have thought the government would get involved to protect the American people from getting ripped off from a large auto manufacturing company like this.
    All I can do is GET RID OF this headache. I am going to get a TOYOTA. I WILL NEVER BUY NISSAN AGAIN! My son wants a Nissan Altima; I told him no he is going to have to look in the Toyota family because I will never buy Nissan again!!! My nephew is ready to buy a car, and I told him about my issues with Nissan, and I would help him with his purchase, as long as he stays away from all Nissan vehicles, and he is going to buy Toyota. I have told my co-workers of my issue and showed them all the issue everyone has had by everyone’s online posts. Two of my co-workers that were thinking about going to Nissan changed their minds and went with another dealership. I am only one person, but I know many people.
    Nissan Manufactures are not the only ones at fault, Michelin is equally at fault for selling poorly made tires, but for a car manufacture to sell a car based only around these PAX Tires…really all they were looking at is the marketing aspect to SELL, SELL, SELL, and not the consumer who were buying them. But of course Nissan denies any wrong doing, and they just pass the buck to Michelin when I called the 1800 Nissan1 number. Good Bye NISSAN - NEVER AGAIN will I walk into your doors, and if I can help it none of my family members, friends, church friends, and their friend and family will be deceived by a company that does not own up to its mistakes and will not take care of their customers. It is truly unreal!!
    Annabel Corley
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    edited April 2010
    A few points:

    - Changing your tires to good old fashioned GFTs will in no way shape or form make your van unsafe, in fact, quite the contrary is true. Long story short, GFTs on your van will provide you with a safer vehicle than it is now with PAX wheels and tires. Why? Unsprung weight. Weight is the killer of vehicle dynamics and with a set of much-much lighter conventional wheels and tires, lighter as in a third to a half of the weight of the PAX assemblies, your van will be much more capable in an emergency maneuvering situation.

    - Your dealership is NOT Nissan, and as such they have absolutely zero say in whether your warranty stays in tact. If they want to play hard-ball on this issue, then play hard-ball back and demand that they put their claims of being able to void part of your warranty in writing, and demand that they cite Nissan corporate publications as support for their claims. I'll bet dollars to donuts that they'll hemm and haw and then excuse themselves from writing that document.

    - Not that I'm a huge fan of Nissan, I feel that I do need to come to their defense on this one. Why? Nissan is not in the business of developing and manufacturing tires, Michelin is, and as such, Nissan needs to rely on Michelin as the experts in that field of art. As many Honda and Acura owners discovered, Michelin's promises of wide spread availability of PAX tires and changing equipment, and their claims of pricing in the neighborhood of only 25% more than conventional tires has never (and will never) come true. Nissan's fault? I suppose to a point, but there isn't a manufacturer in the world that supports the tires that comes on the cars they build.

    - Regarding Toyota, keep in mind that even though they've never offered PAX tires on their vans, they have in fact offered RTFs similar to the ones that BMW uses, and like Honda, Acura, Nissan, and BMW, Toyota has had their own share of issues with these tires.

    - Circling back to the top, the claim by various Nissan dealers that the van is dependent on PAX tires is a complete fabrication. True, the van has had it's suspension upgraded to deal with the extra weight of the PAX assemblies, but this will only make the van that much safer when lighter tires and wheels are mounted. Don't believe me? Just ask any Odyssey owner that has "dePAXed", they'll be more than happy to tell you. :)
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    Strongly concur. Can't speak specifically to Nissan, but all the talk about incompatibility is nonsense. Hundreds of Ody owners have dePaxed, including me. Only issue for me is now have some vibration at higher speeds, may be a balancing issue but certainly easy to live with instread of PAX.

    Also, if you doubt that, note in the Honda/Michelin class action, Honda specifically stated it will not/not claim warranty void for any dePAX Odys.

    My advice is read the Quest forums, Google PAX and Quest, bet you'll find a lot of info on how to convert to regular rims/tires.
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    I've gotten 40,000+ miles on both sets of PAX tires on my 2005 Odyssey, will be putting on my 3rd set soon at 85,000 total miles. Yes, they're more expensive than regular tires, but my wife and I enjoyed the convenience when she called me at work one day to ask what to do because the tire monitor was indicating a flat - she'd hit a pot hole - and I was able to tell her to just drive on over to the dealer.

    (If you want a nightmare, consider the PAX tires on the Bugatti Veyron. They're expected to go 6,000 miles; cost $17,000 a set according to one reference I saw, $25,000 according to another; and the wheels have to be sent to France to remove and mount the tires on the rims.)

    Cheers!

    Regards, JEff
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    On my second set of PAX with no issues at all and great wear. Oh well...
  • Has anyone de-paxed in the Chicago area? I have a 2006 Odyssey I'm probably going to de-pax. Tires have 32K and are pretty much bald.

    I've called a number of Honda dealers in the area (lots of them around here) and none will (over the phone) tell me they will de-pax. Will I have better luck if I go in personally and talk to the service manager? Are there any tire shops that have done this - i.e. can order Honda OEM rims, possibly use my old TPMS sensors (or I'll go with new ones if it's too expensive to get them out of the old rims) and install new rims/tires?

    If you are a local tire shop (west suburbs preferably) and have a reasonably priced solution, feel free to respond.

    Thanks...
  • stuman168stuman168 Posts: 27
    Try google college hill Honda their website is quite informative and you can order your tire from them
  • chirpchirp Posts: 194
    Seems like you are driving only 10K a year and unless you are keeping this van past 6 years I don't know why you would want to spend the money on removing the PAX system rather than simply putting a new set of PAX tires on. 32K of life is not really that bad and at this juncture you will spend more money on a DePAX than with a PAX replacement. I am on my second set of Pax tires and learned from the first set how to make them last with still good tread near the end of life. I also acquired a spare tire from the PAX settlement and have no confidence issues on longer trips anymore that I will be stranded. I also have a 2006 touring and enjoy the ride with the PAX.
  • chirp - thanks very much for the reply. You make some excellent points - and I am kind of on the fence for those exact reasons. Here's my thinking... we do plan on trying to keep the van for 8 or 10 years, so for the next 4 to 6 years, I think I'd like to have the option of having a flat tire fixed pretty much anywhere for $30. Haven't had a flat on the run-flats but my understanding is it's at least $95 just to dismount a Pax and that Honda discourages you from repairing a run-flat b/c it might alter the run-flat structure - thus it may be $300 for a flat Pax. I wasn't on the ball with the settlement - I did read it last year and figured I would make it to 36K miles on the tires so didn't file anything and didn't get the spare - oh well. As far as cost for the two options, all three Honda dealers near me quoted me the same $1400 for replacement w/ labor - depaxing with new OEM honda wheels, new TPMS, spare kit and new tires will cost about $1800 and I hope to get back maybe $200 for the used rims/TPMS. So for $200 more, I get a set of tires that will last me for the rest of my use of the van, a spare for safety and the ability to repair a flat anywhere at low cost. Still haven't concluded whether keeping or ditching the Pax is better for resale value, but my guess is for an 8 to 10 year old van when I sell it, a buyer at that price point would rather have tires that can be replaced for $700 instead of $1400.
  • skap2skap2 Posts: 34
    Last post is a good summary of factors to consider. A small minority of posters here have been satisfied w PAX, but most have not been. If you plan on keeping the van for more than one tire replacement cycle, it is much more cost effective to DePAX if you want (pros- cheaper/easier to repair flat or replace tires; cons- no more runflat, and a hassle to do initial replacement right).

    If you want to replace, main things to be certain of are finding compatible wheels and TPMS. Have to Google for your year. For mine (07 Ody), all I had to do was buy 5x120mm wheels (Pilot wheels from a Honda dealer) and comptaible used TPMS sensors on Craigslist, and a spare from a salvage yard. Sold PAX tires on Ebay. Granted all of this took a fair amount of research, time and effort, but I was able to do it bc I decided to DePAX with a good 8K miles remaining in tread, so not a huge rush. Net cost to DePAX was just under $800. Now have Continental tires with 80K tread warranty.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Another option to consider when dePaxing is TireRack.com. I just checked and you can buy a new set wheels, tires and pressure sensors for $1,347 (plus shipping). Consider the following:

    $488 -- Four 17x7.7 Elbrus I04 Black Machined w/Ice Coating wheels
    $612 -- Four 235/60 R17 Michelin Primacy MXV4 tires (arguably the best tire in this segment)
    $112 -- Four 315MHz Tire Pressure Sensors
    $135 -- One ATEQ TPM QUICKSET RESET TOOL

    When ordered from Tirerack, the entire wheel and tire set is mounted and balanced and ready to simply mount on your car. Not too shabby. ;)

    Best regards,
    Shipo
  • mpumpkinmpumpkin Posts: 2
    I just purchased a 2011 AWD. The ride in this car is quite hard with the run flats -- I think a big part is due to the run flats. I'm no expert, but riding around in the car for even an hour around town, you really feel it. If anyone has ANY suggestions for replacing the tires, please let me know. We bought with much anticipation and while I love virtually everything else about the car -- I am regreting the AWD and looking for any possible alternatives. Is there any way to stow even a donut sized spare under the car? If anyone has any recommendations, please advise.
  • stuman168stuman168 Posts: 27
    I also want to attest that I'm 2 and half years with 2007 ody touring with pax with 26000 miles and the thread still over 5/32 on three of the tires. I had to replace one of them last year because of puncture and was able to drive the car 20+ miles with no pressure on right rear tire. I did get spare tire just incase as PAX are limited to 125 miles only under zero pressure.
  • Thought I would close out my post with my depax experience on a 2006 Odyssey Touring...

    Bought Honda OEM rims and TPMS from College Hills Honda (I looked around for OEM rims/tpms and their price seemed to be around the lowest you can get), 16" Michelin LX4 from Discount Tire who put them on with problems. Reused the center caps and took back my pax rims/tires/tpms - haven't been able to sell the rims yet so may keep to sell with the vehicle later. TPMS reset automatically after about 30 seconds of driving.

    Took a long trip recently - got about 24 mpg. Can tell the ride is a bit smoother and also can tell the handling is not quite as robust.

    Hope that helps others.
  • jeffreyh2jeffreyh2 Posts: 50
    mpump,

    I don't know about the 2011 models, but previously there was an un-used spare tire compartment in the back on the left (driver's) side of the vehicle. I would presume that it's still there, since not all models come with the PAX tires.

    Regards, JEff
  • jcrodjcrod Posts: 1
    Just bought a used 2006 Honda from a non-Honda dealer - he had already switched out the rims and tires that dont have TPMS. Thought I could live with the "CHECK TPMS" light on and had him give me the PAX wheels just in case. Took it for emissions test this morning and was told that they couldn't test it because the tracking wouldnt disengage. Took it to Honda dealer service dept, no clue how to deal with it, said it must be because there is no TPMS now and so car wont let you disengage the tracking because of it. Said only option is to put on PAX tires again ($1200 quote for set of 4 but maybe more if sensors broken). Does anyone know of any way to get the thing to disengage so I can get it passed emissions - really dont want to have to put back on PAX tires or buy whole other set of wheels and tires and tpms if I can avoid it.
  • Not sure about the disengaging, but if the problem is you don't have TPMS, why don't you just put it in and see if it fixes it. Cost of 4 TPMS sensors is apx. $150 (online, not at your honda dealer) and a local tire/auto service shop should be able to put them in for you for $80 or less.
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