Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans

bruceomega

They do mention ..... With adjusted spring rates .....

circlew

It's on the way..I'll be all over this thing! Here are two articles.

ZAP-X is a Crossover Electric Vehicle designed by ZAP Motors and Lotus Engineering derived from the Lotus APX concept platform. The vehicle is estimated to be launched in 2010. The company claims that this car would be powered by a four in-wheel electric motors that generates 644 bhp (480 kW/653 PS) and reaches 350-mile or 560 km with a single charge. It also boasts a top speed of 155 mph or 249 km/h, acceleration of 0–60 mph in 4.8 s and a 10 min recharge time.

ZAP, in partnership with Lotus Engineering have designed a new EV that will result in one of the most advanced electric cars ever developed. The aptly-named ZAP-X Crossover does potentially offer a very real transition option from conventional combustion vehicles, as the short-falls of electric vehicles have been almost completely eradicated in this new design. The award-winning APX lightweight aluminium architecture allows for unparalleled performance and usability. The drive system comprises of innovative electric motors inside each of the wheels, which in partnership can deliver up to 644 horsepower, and speeds of 0-60mph in 4.8 seconds, up to a maximum speed of 155mph. The power system enables the vehicle to travel up to 350 miles before needing a charge, and the new rapid-charge technology allows for battery recharging in as little as 10 minutes. Seating allows for up to 7 passengers (not a type-o) and some very cool new gadgets included as standard too, such as touch-screen controls, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, High-Res Video, Windows XP, iPod Ready, firewire, GPS, USB2 and more! Regenerative braking as standard, and energy collecting windows and windshields allow for some additional charging, too.

With everything you’d want out of a conventional sports car, it also has the versatility of being used as a family vehicle too!

Regards,
OW

waygrabow

My wife and I plan to look at the 2009 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T. What other cars in the same class should we look at? We currently have a 2003 A4 quattro 1.8T which has been almost flawless. Our criteria include comfort for 4 occupants, responsive handling, reliability (perhaps a given these days), all weather capability, and fuel efficiency. Beyond a size adequate to provide comfort for four passengers, we favor smaller cars. Price is a consideration. We can afford what we want but are unwilling to pay just to have a certain brand cache.

ateixeira

I drove a new 2009 V6 Quattro and really liked it. The new AWD system is actually rear-biased, and the car feels more balanced. The adjustable suspension (Comfort/Dynamic) make the vehicle a bit of a chameleon, too.

Having said that, the model I drove had an estimated price of about $48k, and IMHO that's crazy. The 2.0T model will surely be a lot more affordable, and that engine actually makes more torque than the V6 does. I didn't get to drive one, but I'd lean towards that engine.

At the same event we got to sample a Lexus IS230 AWD (comfy, but very soft), a Benz E300 4Matic (solid brakes, but disappointing handling), the A4, and a BMW 328xi. The Bimmer had the best handling, but it's close in price to the Audi, and that's with the base engine, so it won't get much cheaper.

I think the strong euro/weak dollar may leave you with a bit of sticker shock when you go shopping for the 2009s.

I'd add a few others to your list - the 2009 TL-S will have SH-AWD. Also, the G35x from Infiniti. Finally, for a budget buy, check out a Subaru Legacy GT Limited, or even a spec.B model.

That kind of money lets you buy a lot of very nice cars. Good luck shopping.

roadburner

roadburner

I'd add a few others to your list - the 2009 TL-S will have SH-AWD. Also, the G35x from Infiniti. Finally, for a budget buy, check out a Subaru Legacy GT Limited, or even a spec.B model.

If my choices were limited to AWD cars I would also look at the Evo MR as well as the STi. The Spec B is another excellent pick. I found a very clean 2005 Audi CPO S4 for just $31900, but unfortunately it was a slushbox... :mad:

ateixeira

EVO and STI may fall a bit short on comfort, which the OP specifically asked for.

Try them out, though. Can't hurt, plus it'll be fun. :shades:

roadburner

Try them out, though. Can't hurt, plus it'll be fun.

If they're TOO sporty, then he's TOO old. :P

waygrabow

Thanks for the laugh. Just got my first speeding ticket in my MazdaSpeed6; damn, there goes the insurance rates (again). I don't need the HP of an EVO or STi in order to go fast enough. When I mentioned handling, I meant cornering, braking, and steering on uneven/slippery road surfaces NOT brute acceleration. Colorado has a winter and snow storms and mountain roads to deal with Remember also that my wife will share this car. I figure that about 200 hp is enough; beyond that, I'd like to devote engine efficiency toward good gas mileage. Would anyone recommend a Volvo or Saab? I have no experience with either one, so I was wondering. I always like to shop a car in comparison to others to help determine its relative value.

ateixeira

I would have recommended that as well if Mazda had not discontinued it.

The MazdaSpeed3 is very nice, but no AWD. IMHO that's too much power for the front wheels alone, so much that early models had engines shaking out of their cradles due to wheel hop on acceleration.

Doesn't Mazda even limit boost in 1st and 2nd gear?

Give it AWD, Mazda!

roadburner

The MazdaSpeed3 is very nice, but no AWD. IMHO that's too much power for the front wheels alone, so much that early models had engines shaking out of their cradles due to wheel hop on acceleration.

No, the problem was a motor mount. A revised one was issued and the problem has only resurfaced with heavily modded cars and/cars that are drag raced.

Doesn't Mazda even limit boost in 1st and 2nd gear?

Yes, and boost is also dependent on the steering angle.

Give it AWD, Mazda!

I much prefer RWD cars; I bought a Mazdaspeed3 because I thought a little FWD experience would be helpful when I instruct students who have FWD cars at HPDEs. It's been kind of fun learning how to drive a FWD car properly, but I'll probably flip it for an E46 M3 in the near future. AWD is fine but it's not my first choice- unless it's a really, REALLY performance/track oriented sled like the Evo or STi.

ateixeira

Well, IMHO the motor mount was the symptom, not the problem itself. Nothing some thread sealer can't fix, I suppose.

So how would you rate your preference? RWD, then AWD, then FWD? Depends?

I prefer AWD, then RWD, then FWD, in that order

Funny thing is I own one of each!

djdj

I also have a 2003 A4 1.8T; mine is Front-Trak with CVT. Great seats, incredible gas mileage, paint looks like brand new, fantastic stereo. Now has 80,000 miles. Rides as solid as when it was new.
However, I just put $2,300 into the computer control module for the CVT; mechanically should be okay. (I hope). I'm going to bet that that A4 lasts a lot longer and will keep it and replace the timing belt chain at 100K miles.
However, I will be giving it to my daughters to drive because the resale value isn't anything worthwhile and I'd rather the kids drive it then spend even more money for an unknown used car.

For me, I will consider the new A4 2.0T but I have already spent a day with the new 2009 Acura TSX. It was a loaner I got when my wife's MDX was being serviced. I really like the TSX. Roomier than the current A4, drove nice, roomy. It is much smoother, quieter and has better gas mileage than the last TSX. It is also A LOT less than the A4. I am definitely considering getting one. I'd recommend test driving one.

The sticker is thousands less than the A4 sticker, just one of the dealers in Cleveland has a lot in stock and the Internet price was much less than MSRP.

Its worth a look.

Hertz gave me a Volvo S80 for 3 days on a recent trip. I really liked that too; very different from the Audi. I think the CTS is worth a look too.

Let us know what you get.

roadburner

So how would you rate your preference? RWD, then AWD, then FWD? Depends?

I prefer RWD- with no electronic nannies designed to save incompetent drivers from themselves. I love my 318ti Club Sport; all it needs is another 100 bhp, and a stroker motor will fix that.
AWD only works for me when I'm in a lazy mood and I'm not trying to set high cross country speed averages. When that's the case, my wife's X3 slushbox does the job quite well.
When I'm facing serious winter weather or muddy roads(I live on a small farm with a 2800 ft gravel driveway) I take my Jeep TJ. Funny thing: we had a fairly heavy snowfall last winter and I drove the thing around the county for the better part of the day before I noticed that I had never put in four wheel drive.
And FWD? Well, like I said, I bought the Mazdaspeed to hone a skill set I don't often use. It was kind of entertaining to learn how to drive it, but now I'm just flat-out bored with it- though I now think I'd feel that way about anything that isn't RWD and packing at least 300 hp. I ventured off the Munich reservation in order to try something different. I'll be paying the price for my abject stupidity for a few years- purchase in haste, detest at leisure... :mad:

xeye

Hi all,

Living just west of Boston, and in spite of the lack of lowered suspension, as they say, IMHO, I still think you can't do better than the attached photos. We love our twins! Mine's the Sparkling Graphite, the black/black "Batmobile", as she calls it, is my wife's.

By the way, we sadly traded in the '95 318ti with just shy of 140,000 miles. Mostly California-driven and meticulously cared for by Black Forest BMW in Newport Beach from '98 to '03 and Autobahn Automotive in Natick since 2003. Roadburner, you'd have loved this one. Although it needed some mechanical work (passenger window, remote mirrors, wiper motor and some new floor mats), the engine, drive train and interior were in great shape.

Someone is going to get a great car at auction, but it didn't take long to make it a fading memory once my wife got behind the wheel of her new ride.

To me, there's nothing like 2 turbochargers for zoooooom!! And as you can see, BMWs crush Bugs!

xeye

I have a suspicion that the photos won't attach. What is the exact syntax to attach a photo? Assume that the location of my photos are on a flash drive J:\img_0210.jpg. Every variation I try doesn't work.

pat

I replied to your email - the easiest thing to do is post them on your CarSpace page and go from there. Try the link in the upper left part of the page.

waygrabow

So far I have decided to look closely at the Infiniti G35 AWD and the BMW 328 AWD sedans as well as the 2009 A4 Quattro. You are probably right about the Acura TSX being another option (is it AWD?). However, last time I dealt with our local Acura dealer it left a bad taste; I would prefer to deal with a more distant dealer. I looked at the Lexus IS250, but it is too small; my head touched the roof in both the front and back seats, and I am not a big guy. Monday I will be turning over the keys to my MazdaSpeed6 to a buyer. It has been a great car at a bargain price, but my wife prefers a more pampering interior and an automatic transmission.

ateixeira

TSX no, but now there's a TL with SH-AWD.

kyfdx

Stopped by to check out the new A4 on Saturday....

It is really nice...

ateixeira

Did you get to drive it?

I did, at the Audi Driving Experience, which was a really cool event.

They did a nice job with the update. It feels more balanced, though it's not as small or as light as it used to be. And the Dynamic vs. Comfort settings really make a difference.

kyfdx

A greenpea hit me up.... he offered, but I declined.. This is in a real busy shopping area.. on a Saturday...

It is really nice looking... In the same way that the new TT looks better than the old TT... I think the adaptive settings are only available on the S-line model, which they didn't have yet...

Longer wheelbase, 40/60 F/R torque split.. It's bound to be more balanced than the last model..

They had one that was pretty well base (which is the Premium model... go figure).. I think it was around $35K.. but, no heated seats!! Must have been an oversight, sending that unit to Cincinnati... A relative bargain, at that price.. compared to the 328Xi...

pat

Well, go back and drive it and let us know! I have been intrigued by the pics I've seen.

kyfdx

Yeah... my wife saw the commercials... says she could do that for her next car.. Her lease is up in November..

Maybe, next time I'll drive it.. I just happened to be in the neighborhood with time to kill..

waygrabow

Last Saturday my wife and I drove the new A4, the G35x and the BMW 328xi. All are great cars. We eliminated the G35 because the rear seat does not fold down. It also has the feel of a heavy car in the way it reacts. Many standard features. Price-wise, it would be the least expensive. My wife preferred the A4; she just liked everything about it. They were asking MSRP plus which means 35K+. I kinda preferred the 328xi because the non-turbo power delivery was more linear and the suspension, perhaps firmer, felt more closely connected the road. For both German cars options quickly boost the price.

I was in a bad mood; thinking how the MazdaSpeed6, at about 2/3 of the cost of one of these cars, had about 80-90% of the features and performance they had. Also, these cars have great performance potential, but if I actually drove in a manner to utilize the potential, I would end up with bad gas mileage and a speeding ticket. (Recently got a ticket for 65 in a 55 zone which cost me $162. The police here have nothing better to do than set up speed traps. It is a lucrative business.) So I am thinking that buying one of these great handling cars would be like buying a yacht to put in a neighborhood pond. Why pay for performance you can't use? If it is there, I am tempted to use it.

The MazdaSpeed 6 is gone; I am driving our old Audi A4 and still trying to decide what to do next

ateixeira

That's easy - if you're not sure, don't make any changes to your fleet.

I have a 93 Miata and enjoy it. I've test driven several cars that would be potential replacements, yet I still have the Miata, and have never regretted keeping it. It was paid off years ago.

I've only had one major repair, and that cost me about 3 car payments' worth. In 8 years.

Have the A4 detailed. When the right car comes along, you'll know.

roadburner

I have a 93 Miata and enjoy it. I've test driven several cars that would be potential replacements, yet I still have the Miata, and have never regretted keeping it. It was paid off years ago.

Ditto for my 318ti Club Sport, which I've owned since new. Running costs for the little track toy average less than $600 per year(and most of that is for sticky Z-rated gumballs). In fact, it's going to be my instructor car at Watkins Glen in a few weeks- assuming I can resist the temptation to flip my Mazdaspeed for the clean CPO E46 M3 at my local dealer... :surprise:

waygrabow

Thanks for the good advice. We went out and test drove the Mercedes C class this weekend; another very nice car. Also test drove a Mercury Milan since it is supposed to be a bit upscale. The Milan we drove was their Premier AWD with most options. It is probably a very competent car but had no upscale feeling. Weare going to suspend our car shopping until January and see if the market changes.

ateixeira

FWIW, the Lincoln MKZ is even more upscale, and shares the same platform.

dilbertic

My lease is about up for my 2007 model, which is semi loaded, so I went online and then called the my Audi sales rep I used last time. The 1st thing I asked was which model is the same feature set as mine and did Audi add Keyless Entry!!!!!!

The Answer is only if you buy the highest price model for the keyless feature. and I asked does the highest price model come with Nav or you still have to pay 2500.00 to have that added? Nope you have to add the Nav system...

WOW, I like my Audi but it seems what Audi see's as new state of the art features are thing lower priced models come with when you buy a higher model. BMW and Audi options pricing is insane for many of the features that should be standard equipt for the model ranges.

Having to spend 43k for a car, and then having to pay another 2500.00 for a nav system and then 700.00 for so for bluetooth is like being at a hotel paying 5.00 for a Coke at a vending machine...

Dil

ateixeira

Not just any hotel, either, a very nice hotel.

This is common, though. I went to NAIAS twice. Once we stayed in a cheap hotel, they had free internet. Then we stayed at the gorgeous Renn Cen, and we had to pay for internet access, $10/day extra.

I guess they figure rich people will pay, so charge 'em.

lilengineerboy

Let me know next time you go...We can head to Greektown for lunch. Maybe the Edmunds Ohio contingent will come up, especially for press/industry days.

kyfdx

I went this year.... didn't get a press pass, though..

Stayed at the Renn Center Marriott, too...

ateixeira

I haven't gone since the DC Auto Show changed dates.

It used to be just before NAIAS, so we'd get all of last year's leftovers.

Now it's the week after, so we get all the new cars. It's almost not worth it any more, only one or two concepts don't make it here to DC the following week.

nausetiggy

I am close to purchasing one of two 2005 s4's. One has 22k miles, the other has 28k miles and both are Certified. Are there any reliability issues I should know about? Is there an average maintenance cost per year? I live in the northeast, will I need snow tires? My last Audi was an Allroad, so I am trying to get to know a different type of beast!

Thank you for any suggestions and information.

ateixeira

Sweet cars...

Do they have summer tires now? If so, you probably need snows.

You should be OK with all-seasons and Quattro, though.

roadburner

I have some friends who swear by Audi. Other friends swear AT the marque. I have no personal experience with Igolstadt products but I will admit that I find the S4 to be a tempting prospect. My local Audi dealer has two Dolphin Gray S4s, but unfortunately both of them are slushboxes...

ateixeira

I went with a friend from DC to Philly and back, one-day round-trip, in an S4 convertible. That thing was beautiful. The V8 is nice and torquey, too.

Complaints? Back seat is tiny, and the MMI navigation system interface was a nuisance. We ended up using my portable Garmin instead.

waygrabow

We saw the Lincoln MKZ on the lot, but that bit chrome grill up front made me not want to investigate it any further. Perhaps I was wrong. Have you checked it out?

ateixeira

Not up close.

I test drove the Mercury version of that car.

It was OK, really, just a bit bland.

waygrabow

Yes, that is what we thought. When I sat in the front seat, the dashboard and controls seemed pretty generic. Even with AWD the Milan didn't seem to qualify as a subject of this board. If we had to make a choice right now, we would buy the new Audi A4. But we are going to wait and re-look at the situation in January. I should have looked closer at the MKZ when we were at the dealership, but the exterior appearance, formal with lots of chrome, was not inviting. Even with the larger engine and AWD, it also is doubtful to qualify as a sports sedan, but I don't know for sure..

ateixeira

Generic, good word for it.

I could not really find anything wrong with it, something was just missing.

I did like how wide it was, very comfortable for 2 in the front, with a good arm rest between.

Great car ... for my aunt.

vlane

The Audi AWD is second to none as others have posted. I have loved my A4 (99) since the day I drove it off the lot and I look forward to purchasing a newer one. Having lived in Lake Tahoe for many winters I can tell you that the Audi handles inclimate weather very well. They sizing is a bit on the small side when compared to the BMW but the road performance is where the Audi shines versus all the competition. Many of my co-workers have owned Subarus and I can safely say they do not compare to Audi's.

ateixeira

The Audi AWD is second to none

How can that even be possible?

The A3 uses a Haldex.

Other Audis use a Torsen.

You can't generalize like that, because the two systems are completely different. At least specify which one you are referring to.

Plus, if Audi thought Quattro (the Torsen kind) was so perfect they would not have changed the default power split so dramatically for the new 2009 models.

You're buying in to the marketing hype.

xeye

The word is inclement.

Inclement, not inclimate.

You're off the island.

We have an '07 335xi and an '08 328xi. The former is paid off, the latter has 59 payments left @ 0.9%. I reviewed a Subaru Spec B, not a bad ride, but when suggesting it to my wife, who had a '95 318ti (Roadburner knows), the response was predictable.

I have driven mostly average cars since 1975. I don't know if I'll continue driving BMWs, but I know I've been spoiled by my 335xi. It all depends on what comes along in August 2011 when my 4 years B-t-B warranty expires. I have a very strong feeling, based on how much I look forward to every trip no matter how short, that I will find myself in a turbo-charged vehicle, and I really hope its from BMW.

Bring on the snow!!! BWA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!!!

xeye

ateixeira

The spec.B is a nice ride, check out the R&T comparo from when it came out. It lapped quicker than the A4, 3 series, G35, MazdaSpeed6, and everyone else, too. And it had the lowest price to boot.

And yes, it lapped quicker than the A4 Quattro.

quattroporte12

Alright so, heres the deal...
I had an AWESOME bmw x5, 4.4i, sport package, x-drive, loved it.
It got totaled.
SO... while i had the x5 i got a 335 rental and LOVED IT, so i was looking at used 330xi's , 06 and above, to replace the x5 just because i love the way they drive, awesome car, plus the 20/30 is a nice change from my x5s 16/22.
I also am intrigued by the 2008 r32's, and used theyre about the same for a lot less milage and more warranty.
I drove an a4, it was a 06 2.0t, and was really unimpressed (we have a q7 and it did not hold up to the standard set by the q), so im thinking maybe an 05 s4 would be a nice choice and would drive differently, but again, the gas milage...
AND, the subaru sounds like an all-around good buy, but i dont know if i can see myself actually getting one. (and possibly, i could look at fx's again, i looked at em when i got my x5, but i kinda wanted to move away from the suv thing, so if i got another one its prob be an x5)
if anyone could give my any advice or insight or opinion ill take anything i can get!! thank you guys so much!! please help i cant decide!! ive only driven the 330i, and so far ive set that as a benchmark for anything else i drive...
Thanks for the help!!!!

ateixeira

The R32 uses a Haldex, i.e. nothing special. Plus it's kind of pricey, IMO.

But never mind - you loved the 335 rental, so get one of those, or maybe a 328xi.

bmlexus

My lease is about up for my 2007 model, which is semi loaded, so I went online and then called the my Audi sales rep I used last time. The 1st thing I asked was which model is the same feature set as mine and did Audi add Keyless Entry!!!!!!

The Answer is only if you buy the highest price model for the keyless feature. and I asked does the highest price model come with Nav or you still have to pay 2500.00 to have that added? Nope you have to add the Nav system...

WOW, I like my Audi but it seems what Audi see's as new state of the art features are thing lower priced models come with when you buy a higher model. BMW and Audi options pricing is insane for many of the features that should be standard equipt for the model ranges.

Having to spend 43k for a car, and then having to pay another 2500.00 for a nav system and then 700.00 for so for bluetooth is like being at a hotel paying 5.00 for a Coke at a vending machine...

Nice things you asked your sales guy lol.

Sucking the rich guys, that's what they do. because they know, he'll be able to afford it.

quattroporte12

Now im just down to either a 2006 bmw 330i (the xi is like 4000 more when you are buying used) or a 2005 audi s4. i think the bmw drives better, and gets better gas milage, but the audi is faster, is awd, and is a LITTLE cheaper / easier to find the way i want. So i have no idea what to do. Because both are awesome cars, i love the bmw steering and suspension...and engine. and in the audi, i love the engine. So if i was buying just on drive id get the bimmer (which im leaning towards) but i feel like the audi is the better since i ski and will probably need awd. Please help me i dont know what to do! Thank you so much!!!!

roadburner

Please help me i dont know what to do! Thank you so much!!!!

I would buy the 330i and simply order a set of winter wheels and tires from Tire Rack. I've never had any trouble getting around in snow/ice with a RWD BMW so equipped. I do the changeover myself; it takes all of @30-45 minutes. Audis are fine cars but I prefer RWD.