Cadillac "BTS"

wale_bate1

A quote from R&T Feb 05:

"Cadillac is mulling a small BMW 3-series fighter based on an AWD version of the Epsilon chassis used for the Saab9-3. For lack of a better name we call it the BTS, since it would compete in the B-C class of small cars. And we up the ante by challenging Cadillac to build a V version, which would be a nice entry-level vehicle for the States."

 

Gets right to vehicle sizing in that I have often read in the Hall comments about the CTS being a 3-series competitor, which it really is not save on price point; further that even dumb-as-a-bag-of-hammers GM (well, there's some hot spark at Caddy anyway) realizes the market for small performance/lux vehicles is an expanding one. It's not just a price-point game, but there is growing demand for smaller, more exciting to drive near-lux offerings.

 

Could it be that Caddy is on the verge of finally offering a car I'd like? Heavens!

 

BTW, the pics, even with the Art & Science "heritage" actually look pretty good. A step forward from CTS, IMO.

logic1

My preference would be to have the B Cadillac built on the rwd Kappa platform with an AWD option.

 

It could be that GM is looking to modify the Epsilon platform as the Kappa can not make an easy transfer to 4 seater.

 

Whatever. Just do it!

merc1

"My preference would be to have the B Cadillac built on the rwd Kappa platform with an AWD option."

 

That is the only way they should do it. I keep thinking about that small concept car that Holden built on the Kappa platform, a real stunner.

 

M

wale_bate1

RWD would be the preference, but frankly any mfr thinking very sport, some lux and small as in compact, all in the same package, has my full attention. The more options out there, the better, IMO

kyfdx

Would you really consider a Cadillac "3-series"? With the current styling of a CTS?

 

I like options.. but, I can't see going GM, with the current styling and reliability issues..

wale_bate1

Well, that's a lot of elements in one question, kyfdx!

 

I'm no Art & Science fan, but as they've progressed with it, it's begun to soften a bit (STS, DTS), and it's coming into a more reasonable place, IMO. The pic in R&T looked OK to me. Hard to get wiggy over one pic of something that doesn't really exist, but it looked like it had potential.

 

On reliability, I really can't see that buying Caddy is that much different from buying Audi (which I will likely do next go round) or BMW (which could be a contender as well) or even the vaunted Lexus (which I have now and which has in fact seen the inside of the repair bay just like any other car).

 

Where GM is likely to lose me, should they actually make such a beastie, is on the inside and at the dealership. GM interiors, Caddy included, are still second rate, IMO. I don't like the choice of materials or components, the ergonomics (usually) suck, IMO, and the execution is still Chevy+. The dealerships are generally a small step up from, say, a Dodge shop. If they could sell it through Saturn shops, I'd be a whole lot more satisfied I should think.

 

Have to give them credit at Caddy: they are many leagues from where they were just five or ten years ago, but they still have some ground to make up. Interest in a smaller sport lux package, however, to me represents not only another chance to get it right, but also another competitive option to keep the others on their toes and hopefully offering quality in that market segment.

 

So yeah, I can get kinda jazzed about the prospect!

kyfdx

go this way..

 

jrct9454, "BMW 1-Series - 2005" #391, 9 Feb 2005 10:06 am

wale_bate1

That's actually the one I didn't want them to send! Remember this pic from Motor Und Sport?:

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/sixcms/media.php/76/einsertour- _450.jpg

  

That's the wagon, not the hatch. The hatch is too stubby, and I don't think it's going to fly, even though the config seems just right otherwise. I could be very, very wrong though...

kyfdx

Is there a wagon? I assumed that was photo-shopped...

wale_bate1

Oh heck, I hope it's not a shop job.

 

I was really thinking Motor Und Sport was a cut above Autospies!

kyfdx

I don't follow the 1-series that closely, since it is at least 18 months away.. and the wife seems to think her next car is going to be an X3..

 

What is it with women and SUVs? She would die if she had to drive a wagon.. but, lift the wagon up six inches, and it is the greatest thing since sliced bread...

wale_bate1

To paraphrase a MitsuUS exec. (can't remember who it was; probably fired by now): "we used to build them boxy with a gate in the back and call them station wagons, and people would buy them because they needed station wagons. Now we build them boxy with a gate in the back and call them sport-activity-recreational-utility-hyper-crossover-vehicles and people buy them because they need station wagons..."

 

Now, if the "BTS" ended up a rockin' AWD sport wagon instead of just another sedan, well brother, I'm in line to see it up close and personal! Of course, they'd probably only give it to the Euro market...

gordonwd

Shopping for my most recent car, everything I looked at claimed to be "as good as", "competitive with", "just like", or "the equivalent of" a BMW 3-series sedan. So after testing a number of them (TSX, 9-3, A4, etc.) I figured that maybe I should just go out and buy the car that they're all comparing themselves to -- and I did!

 

  -- '04 BMW 3-series owner :-)

wale_bate1

Whadya get Gordon?

 

Like they say, can't have competition without a benchmark!

 

Unfortunately in my nape of the timber, every butthead with a paycheck has a BMW, so you get kind of tired of them.

 

Wagons are a little different scenario. I tried the 325iT on for size, and against the IS300 Sportcross, it just didn't measure up. Ultra close, but just not quite there. In sedans, I think I might have come home with a 325i if a sedan was what I'd been after. Then again, maybe not.

 

I like having as much competition in the segment as possible. Much easier to find the right fit if there's more than one shoe to look at, and even BMW can't please everyone all the time.

 

It also keeps the benchmark on its toes, eh?

merc1

Well here it is, the BLS:

 

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=8120

 

A tarted up Saab. GM is really going to fall flat on their face in Europe with this thing.

 

M

wale_bate1

OK, forget everything I said. The pic in R&T looked quite a bit different to me. This is CTS-Lite. Very lite.

 

I'm afraid you're right Merc: this has "Catera" written all over it.

 

Dear Caddy: don't bring this one home.

sevenfeet0

Why is GM going to fall flat with this one?

 

No one's even driven it and everyone seems to have an opinion. I'm not sure it's fair to say this car started as a Saab. It started as an Epsilon chassis, which Saab shares with a number of GM divisions. After that, you craft the styling to match stateside Caddies, add a selection of diesell and smaller gas engines and you get a pretty decent offering. Personally I think the car needs to be RWD or AWD to properly compete (Saab and Volvo can get away with offering FWD cars, but not Cadillac).

 

Anyway, once someone drives this thing, we'll see.

merc1

Well you're right in a way, but I don't think Europeans are going to be fooled. Saying it started out as a Saab would probably be better than saying it started out as an "Epsilon chassis" which to me says that it started out even cheaper and on an even lower scale than a "Saab". I mean a Chevy and Pontiac share the same "architecture" as they're saying nowadays. I bet this car is huge flop like the Saab 9-7x and 9-2x are going to be here.

 

You're also right in the thinking that it should be rwd. Why GM didn't use that mean little Kappa platformed Holden concept is beyond me. It would have made a much more convincing small BMW/Merc/Audi rival. Unless they're doing something drastic under skin this BTS ain't gonna drive much different from the Saab or whatever its based on and in Europe they need this more than they do here.

 

This GM, Saab, Subaru orgy is a disgrace imo.

 

M

wale_bate1

I thought it was a potential synergy myself. I was all hot for the 9-2x, just as a concept. I saw one in the flesh finally last Thursday. This is silly. What looked to be a fair improvement over Subie's quirky styling in print falls flat in person, and there's hardly much incentive other than a styling upgrade to pop for the SAAB.

GM is unable to avoid pot-melting as opposed to platform sharing. Even Ford can do that better it seems...

jchan2

sounds better than Tarted Up Malibu at least.

phoenexius

We all want AWD...
Note that the new Alfa 159 is on the Epsilon platform and will be getting Q4 AWD at some point in the future.
Oh yeah the Alfa comes with a 3.2 V6 rated at 260 hp too.

http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy?artid=36632&pg=- 1
or
http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/Geneva_Motor_Show/0,7427,1369-- 1782_1666421,00.html
"The 159 offers an evolved permanent four-wheel drive system with three differentials."

And Saab needs to incorporate the AWD as well in order to compete with the S40/V50 on home turf...
As the Caddy will be built in Trollhattan, that will set up the manufacturing site with AWD for the Saabs.

sounds like a pretty good formula for the Caddy to me.

Only thing is, how do they price the thing versus the Alfa? I would choose the Alfa styling over the Caddy.

s

wale_bate1

I think even a blind naked mole rat would choose Alfa styling over Caddy, but I digress...
;-)

merc1

Yeah an Alfa-Romeo is lusty car even their sedans. Now Alfa is one brand that needs to come back to the U.S.

M

wale_bate1

Oy!

I think they've got to wait at least one more generation. I've still got a bad taste in my mouth from saying "Alfa" in the early 90's, and I didn't even own one.

Historically, though, yes, it'd be nice. The current styling is certainly more appealing than much of what's available here and now.

Support and service. That's just plain got to be ironed out well in advance, with a huge PR campaign before the cars ever even get shown here.

Too emotional?

merc1

Nope, that is a spot on view of Alfa. Lusty but a pain in [non-permissible content removed] to own. They must fix that before even attempting to come here again.

You're right about their styling too. I can imagine how good their current lineup would look on our roads. Makes other cars, even some other European ones look like toasters.

M

chris65amg

GM doesn't get it, apparently. In Europe (or at least in Ireland) the view of Caddy is that it's a big old car for old Texan guys who ran into some money. However, my uncle was drunk when he said that.... but I digress.

The point is that Caddy doesn't have much of a chance because it isn't what people want. The styling is a thin veil, and I don't think that the platform will impress too many. As a matter of fact, I think that it's silly that GM didn't root through their Australian subsidy or Subaru and make a Legacy knockoff.... ew, forget I said that. But a 9-3 platform "Epsilon" (silly name) doesn't sound too hot. Isn't that the one that's shared with the Chevy Malibu and Pontiac GTO? If Caddy want's to be a standard, this isn't the way to go.

Alfas. Did you see that concept that they had at that one auto show last year? Lusty lusty lusty. The scantily clad lady on the hood didn't hurt, of course. If Alfa exported to the U.S, that would be awesome. Even my mom would buy one, And she's a little old lady.

sportssedanman

can everybody say "Cimmaron" ? Not the move they needed and the best evidence that GM - and all of Detroit - just doesn't get it. Leave the CTS as the enty level Caddy, price-wise it competes with the 3-Series, TL, G35.

aldw

How is this a Cimmaron? Qualitatively it is as good as any car in its class. And how does Caddy not 'get it'? Prestige is not static by any means, otherwise the crappy reputations of the imports of the 1960s would have stayed. Just what is it that you think a Caddy should be anyhow?

wale_bate1

CTS competes on price, but it's more a G35 and TL cross shop, and less a 3-series cross shop still. With the intro of the next, larger 3, that may change.

Anywho, a smaller Caddy would be welcomed be folks like me who see the CTS as too big and more along the lines of the 5-series for size and dynamics, but not this one.

A3 Sportback and 1-series look like the future of compact sport-lux from where I'm sitting.

sportssedanman

why go lower on the scale ? in an effort to be all things to all people, Caddy is going to dillute the gains in prestige that they've made the past few years by going a notch down from the CTS.

sure, BMW sells a lot of 3-series, but with the new IS, the TSX, the G35, a tiny Audi on the way...isn't this a bit crowded for Caddy to enter.

If you want to improve your image, going downscale is not the way to do it. Caddy doesn't need to capture entry level buyers, it needs to get back the customers they've lost to Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Mercedes, Audi, and Jaguar in the past 15 years.

Caddilac was a brand that people aspired to have. An entry level spots car is not the way to get it, its a cheap attempt to extend the brand in a direction it doesn't need to go.

merc1

Guys you're missing the point of the BLS, it is for Europe where the CTS might be seen as too big compared to the market leaders C-Class, 3-Series and A4. It won't be sold here, and in Europe there is no Infiniti and the TSX is just a sporty "Honda" Accord.

M

merc1

Looking at the pictures from various sites covering the Geneva show it is clear to me that this is one stupid looking car to say the least. It looks like the rush, rebadge job that it is. I predict it will fall flat on its face in Europe. Look closer at the Cadillac sharp angles and creases over the obvious Saab body and you'll see what I mean. Just hideously proportioned.

M

wale_bate1

Exactly.

The first shot I saw before I started the thread was from a very complimentary angle (perhaps the only complimentary angle). Subsequent looks confirm that this is a disaster on the block.

I still champion the cause of the smaller sport-lux platform. Some of us choose compact for the driving experience, not the price point!

merc1

I just don't get GM at all. They have shown an awesome little sedan concept under the Holden badge based on the rwd Kappa platform that would have seemingly been much more competitive against the small rwd European models they're going after with this lame BLS. I guess that would have costs too much money and since Saab isn't using their plant to capacity....

I pray GM never, ever comes to own any more brands than they already have because they are clueless on how to make them work. VW and Ford have a much better grasp on this multi-brand concept.

M

wale_bate1

Does it make you wonder that maybe their gaff with rebadging a Holden for US consumption has something to do with it?

Not to worry, according to Doc Fill, Lexusguy and afew others, Toyota's poised to buy GM anyway. Then we'll get some exciting GMs, you betcha!

;-)

billherrmann

I test drove a 3.6 CTS........WOW !!!!! I have owned 330xi, Acura TL and one of the first IS300 off the truck. Compared to 330: far more torque, more room, runs on REGULAR gas, and costs 6 to $10,000.less!!! I would have agreed with every negative GM comment until two test drives knocked me out. Last week I leased an "05 CTS for 36 months for $322.per month W/ $1000. down.
Please test drive [the 3.6] before posting as to what an uninformed dunce I must be.

jlevymba

HELP!!!
I'm lovin the CTS, and am looking at getting either it or the 330xi. However, Live in Buffalo and want a car that can drive on top of a few inches of snow without spinning out. 330xi is all wheel drive and i imagine that is better than the CTS?thoughts?

Kirstie_H

Hi jlevymba,
This discussion is about a potential future Cadillac model. You'll want to visit one of these discussions to ask your question where you're most likely to get feedback:
Cadillac CTS

BMW 3-Series 2006+