IS DIESEL BETTER THAN UNLEADED?

limpbizkit

I am a person who likes my powerful trucks but a friend is telling me that unleded is better and well i was wondering for the people out there..is desiel better than unleded?

~~limpbizkit~~

sheriffav8r

How many truckers out there use a gasoline engine? With diesel you get 30% more power and fuel efficiency than with gasoline. With sensible driving you can pay for your diesel engine in fuel savings within 3-4 years. Plus, the new Ram has 300HP and 600FP! The Cummins engine is RATED for 400,000 miles, BY CUMMINS! Go diesel and you'll never regret it!

pusterracing

Hmm....gas...what's that? I don't even own a gasoline vehicle anymore.

Power..let's see.....

Ford
6.0L Powerstroke Diesel 325HP/570T
5.4L V8 Gas 300HP/365T
6.8L V10 Gas 362HP/457T
Which do you thing will pull more and have more "power" feel?

GM
6.6L Duramax Diesel 310HP/605T
6.0L V8 Gas 300HP/360T
8.1L V8 Gas 330HP/450T
Which do you thing will pull more and have more "power" feel?

Dodge
5.9L Cummins Diesel 325HP/600T
5.7L V8 Gas 330HP/375T
Which do you thing will pull more and have more "power" feel?

If you like powerful trucks, diesel is the only way to go. My '03 F350 6.0L Powerstroke pulls off the line 0-60 just like any other "sports" car or powerful sedan. And it tows like nothing else. So whatever make you prefer, diesel is the way to go.

-PR-

'03 Ford F350 SuperCrew Kingranch 6.0L Powerstroke
'04 VW Jetta GLS TDI
'05 VW Passat GLS TDI

rvdude

How do i change the spark plugs in my V10?

KCRam

rvdude, you probably want to post that question in a more appropriate discussion such as Ford F-Series: Problems & Solutions.

kcram - Pickups Host

markw8

With fuel costing 20 to 50 cents a gallon more than gas, there is nearly no hope of covering the extra cost. You buy the diesel because you need or want it. Mark.

gagrice

costing 20 to 50 cents a gallon more than gas

I just traveled from Portland to San Diego. 10 cents per gallon was the biggest difference I saw between Gas and diesel. In CA I can buy the best ultra low sulfur diesel for 5-10 cents more than unleaded regular. For less than 3% price premium I get a 30% increase in mileage over a comparable gas car.

pusterracing

With fuel costing 20 to 50 cents a gallon more than gas

I pay, right now, about 3-5 cents more per gallon than regular unleaded. In the dead of winter, I pay roughly 10-12 cents more per gallon, and in the heat of summer I pay roughly 10 cents less than regular unleaded. It all averages out.....

-PR-

markw8

Today in Akron Ohio, I saw fuel for 2.37. I saw gas for 1.99. Since late last year the spread has rarely been less than 20 cents, and once early this year fuel was 50 cents higher. If your paying what you say, then cosider yourself lucky.Mark.

xwesx

No kidding. The diesel (and heating oil - non-road diesel) available here is refined about 15 miles from where I now sit, and for the past 6 months has been about 20 cents higher than gasoline.... which is shipped in via train. The most astonishing thing about this latest fuel hype is that heating oil is only about 5 cents less than road diesel...... that's just plain gouging in an area where an average home needs 500 gallons a year. I think diesel is about $2.35/gal now and one year ago, heating oil was $1.42/ gal with road diesel at $1.85.

markw8

I think a lot of the high prices are due to dwindling refining capacity. Mark.

gagrice

I think you are exactly right. What is the best way to get people to lighten up on environmental roadblocks? Raise the price of fuel. They will need to build additional refineries to process all the new Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. As other states adopt the cleaner unleaded that is mandated in CA, the need for modern refineries will increase. Now is the best chance we have to get those permits granted. We probably need 4-5 new refineries in the US to keep up with demand.

As for this thread. I believe diesel is 30% better than unleaded gas. With ULSD many would argue that it is environmentally better than unleaded gas. The Europeans are quickly adopting diesel as the de facto fuel.

pusterracing

Today in Akron Ohio, I saw fuel for 2.37. I saw gas for 1.99.

I'm going to use the current Akron prices to illustrate that even with a 38 cent spread, it is still cheaper per mile to fuel up the diesel.

An F350 CC with a 5.4 Triton V8 Averages ~11MPG (info obtained from discussions)
An F350 CC with a 6.8 Triton V10 Averages ~9 MPG (info obtained from discussions)
An F350 CC with a 6.0 Powerstroke V8 Averages ~17MPG (I know, I have one)

The V8 gas costs about 18.1 cents per mile to fuel. (1.99/11)
The V10 gas costs about 22.1 cents per mile to fuel. (1.99/9)
The V8 diesel costs about 13.9 cents per mile to fuel. (2.37/17)

So we are talking about a fuel savings of 4.2-8.2 cents per mile with the diesel vs the gas engines. And, technically, you cannot compare the 5.4L V8 with the diesel since it has about HALF of the towing capacity, the V10 is really the comparable engine, but wanted to compare also with a gas V8 also so we could avoid the...but the GAS is a V10 and the diesel is a V8 portion of the discussion.

So, driving 20,000 miles per year (which I drive many many more) and an average fuel savings of 6.2 cents per mile ((4.2+8.2)/2), you save $1240 per annum on fuel driving the diesel. And that is WITH diesel costing 38 cents more per gallon in Akron.......

-PR-

03 Ford F350 SuperCrew KingRanch 6.0L Powerstroke
04 VW Jetta GLS TDI
05 VW Passat GLS TDI

goboilers

Never owning a diesel, is there a big maintenance cost difference between gas and diesel? I have read that oil changes (especially for the trucks) can be twice as much as gas.

john500

From a fuel economy and power (torque in particluar) perspective, I would agree that diesel is about 30 % better. Unfortunately, there is still the particulate matter issue with diesel fuel. Although the particluate matter decreases with low sulfur diesel, it is still much higher than what comes out of a gasoline engine. Presumably, the bulk of the particulate emission comes from the "sparkless" combustion. As far as new refineries in the US, good luck. From what I've read, I can't imagine any company paying the extra costs for pollution prevention, tax and labor when they can build refineries in Mexico or China.

gagrice

the particulate matter issue with diesel fuel

My understanding is that when ULSD is used a particulate filter can be installed that is very effective on PM. If you install a particulate filter on an engine burning high sulfur diesel it will be destroyed in a short period of time. For people to give up the other positive aspects of using diesel because the US Government is not able to get their act together does not make sense to me. I am trying to do my part by using BP-ECD-1, which is becoming readily available in CA.

As far as new refineries being blocked by regulations. How are we gaining on the situation by forcing them to be built in Mexico. We end up getting the pollution blown back over the border. It may help their economy and that is a good thing also. My main point is that there is not a shortage of Oil, just a shortage of production and transportation capacity.

pusterracing

Today in Elkhart, IN I paid $2.15 for diesel, regular unleaded at the same pump was $2.24.....I'm not going to redo the math, but the numbers just jumped substantially in favor of diesel.........

-PR-

gagrice

Our guy that lives in Brookings South Dakota just filled his F250 at the Co-op with B20 for $2.15 per gallon. Unleaded was $2.21. As the demand for heating oil goes down the price of diesel will go down.

pusterracing

Yeah, last summer, mid-summer, I was paying on average a quarter less per gallon, sometimes as high as $0.35 less per gallon....but I don't expect a spread as good as that one this year....

-PR-

gagrice

I don't expect diesel in CA to get much below regular. It has been about equal for several years since they added more tax to diesel than gas. I am using that ULSD and expect it to stay 10 cents higher than unleaded for a while. If we get more stations selling biodiesel it will force the price of # 2 diesel down a little. I just don't see the argument of noisy, smelly. My Passat TDI does not smell at all. I wish I could say that for the Lexus LS400. Let's put it this way. If you started the engine in the garage with the Lexus and closed the doors you would be dead long before you would with the Passat diesel. I'd rather have asthma than being dead.

xwesx

I think the only disadvantages for Jo(e) Consumer with diesel is selection and price. A substantial premium is charged for diesel vehicles in the US (I do not know about elsewhere), and the variety of makes/models and options available with diesel engines is extremely limited. Fuel savings (mpg for similarly equipped gasoline vehicles) and power output are obvious, but for many people that does not offset the necessity to fork over more at purchase and choose from relatively few options.

gagrice

Selection of diesel cars is very limited for sure. If you don't like VW or MB you are out of luck. The Jeep seems to be making some diesel fans happy. The premium on the Passat TDI is only $200. Right now there are factory incentives on all 2005 VWs to make room for the 2006 models. I think the TDI's are selling fast though. Many people are buying two while the incentives are available. No time frame for 2006 TDI as of yet.

KCRam

Maintenance costs are pretty balanced. In place of the 3-gallon oil changes on my Ram Cummins, I never have to worry about spark plugs, distributors, wires, etc.

And with those oil changes costing me just $45 (compared to 20 for a gasser), it works out pretty even. The other maintenance items (air filter, fuel filter, coolant) are pretty much the same for both.

kcram - Pickups Host

xwesx

True; I was considering more pickups than the VWs when I mentioned the price premium. I had considered retiring my old '69 C20 so I could do a full restoration of it, but I wanted to replace it with a 3/4 ton or better diesel (new) and it was amazing how much the price jumped when I swapped out no options other than the powerplant. Much more than the cost of the engine itself could justify (about $5,000). I have never been overly impressed with VW and have not considered purchasing one.

pusterracing

True, the diesel option is very hefty on the larger trucks. I bought mine used with 11K miles on it and paid $17K less that MSRP, so I couldn't and still can't complain about the deal. But, I doubt I would have spent $50K on the truck brand new, I love it, but $50K is $50K and I woulcn't spend that on any vehicle.

-PR-

xwesx

As with you, I would purchase slightly used if I were to buy a "new" diesel pickup. After all, even an '03 or '04 is still 33+ years newer than my current truck! I have decided though, that I will probably buy a midsize p/u to replace it for normal use and get a Maxi-Dump trailer to substitute for the hauling capacity of my C20's bed. If I need to pull a heavy trailer (>5000 lb), I can always break out Ol' Yeller to tow without damaging a newly restored wooden bed! I am hoping that perhaps a 1/2 ton or smaller pickup will be available with diesel by the time I decide to buy - I would be willing to spring for one new and take the depreciation hit if used was unavailable, whereas I would not with a gas engine.

I do not haul a lot of heavy loads frequently. I put maybe 1500 miles on my C20 annually, and I almost only use it for hauling loose material, brick, etc. But, when a "pickup load" is $20, I'd rather take home 2 yards than 0.5 yards!

-Wes-

mullins87

Until very recently, I owned an F-350 dually Powerstroke diesel. I got rid of it simply because I just don't need that much hauling/towing capacity anymore and couldn't justify the maintenance costs. With that said, I'm glad I got rid of it when I did. Around here, diesel prices are running $.05 to $.10/ gallon more than Premium Unleaded. When I bought that truck, diesel was running below Regular Unleaded. I don't understand the price of diesel. With spring in full swing, and summer on the way, diesel prices should be going way down since the demand for heating oil is decreasing and suppliers have already switched from No. 1 to No. 2 fuel. :confuse:

gagrice

I think the additional cost is a reflection of the refiners converting to ULSD. BP refineries are only producing low sulfur diesel. I'm sure others are converting. I paid $2.519 for BP/ARCO ULSD yesterday. Premium was $2.619 and regular $2.419. Still making diesel the fuel of choice for most bang for your buck. At those prices diesel would have to be an additional 73 cents higher to not be a better BTU buy. Not to mention the other advantages of diesel engines over gas. I am still amazed at how much easier the Passat TDI pulls the long Interstate hills than gas cars. It stays at 70 MPH in high gear 2200 RPM. Most midsize cars drop to a lower gear and scream up to 4500 plus RPM. No wonder they only last about half as long they take twice the beating getting the job done. If I can stay at 70 MPH or below I get 40 MPG, not many station wagons can claim that. Even at 85 MPH I get an easy 37 MPG.

mullins87

You know, it's your example that bewilders me why this country hasn't(or won't) embrace diesels in passenger cars. Everybody talks pollution, and while I don't know what components make up each type of exhaust, you can't convince me that a diesel getting 40 mpg is polluting more than a gasser getting 25 mpg. Heck, there are a couple of the new Toyota hybrids where I work. It's the Prius I think. Both of their owners report about the same thing - 52 mpg in town and 48 mpg on the highway. I don't think either one of them drive over the speed limit. If they did, I bet their mileage would drop into the low 40's.

gagrice

I think most of the problem is old perceptions. People living in the past with smoking diesels and the GM diesel conversions. The new MB & VW diesels even burning poor diesel do not put out any exhaust smoke. I am going to have a friend that owns a smog station test my Passat TDI using ULSD. I would like to know just how much & what is in the exhaust. Old negatives die hard. You are also right on with the hybrids. You have to drive like an old lady to get even near the rated mileage. I tried driving on a trip to LA last weekend at 65 MPH in the right lane. I had trucks right on my bumper. It is very hard to drive the speed limit on the Interstates without blocking traffic. I won't do that to save a few pennies on fuel.

campinut

I own a 2000 1 ton dually. Chevy, 454 (last year made). Best I have gotten was 14mpg pampered empty miles. Worst was on a trip through the mountains (Gatlinburg Tn.) with a 11000 lb 5th wheel I got 9mpg. I paid 20000$ for this truck with 25000 miles and 16000 miles left on the waranty. Has been a great truck. I have a friend who owns a '99 dually with 7.3 Powerstroke. He averages 19 mpg empty and 14 mpg fully loaded ( he has a tree removal business and usually over taxes GVWR) Last time he checked when he pulled into a lumber yard he was well over GVWR at close to 18000lbs. He bought his truck used for 32000 with 14000 miles and no options (plain x-cab). Maintenance costs are going to run equal. If you are gonna pull and kep the truck a long time (200,000 + miles) go diesel. Otherwise if you are going to putter around with no more than 8000 lbs and gonna get rid of it before 1000,000 miles you do not gain a thing. And yes I do wish I had bought the diesel, but at 12000 dollars more, not to mention how much more with crew cab, leather, automatic, 4x4, and pwer seats. To me it was not realy worth it.

john500

Have automakers found a way to make aluminum or aluminum alloy based diesel engines, or is the pressure still too high for aluminum to last? It would be nice to get the engine weight decreased by 1/3 by going to aluminum instead of steel when/if the next diesel boom occurs.

jimlockey

Diesel fuel should not cost more. The oil companys know that. It is just like 1973 & 1974 again but instead of saying they are out of fuel they (oil companys) are charging a lot more and getting rich doing so.

gagrice

I am pretty sure the new Honda diesel is an aluminum block. Not sure about VW & MB diesels.

KCRam

Aluminum is never a great idea for a diesel because it dissipates heat faster than iron. A diesel runs on compression-generated heat, so if that heat is leaving the cylinders quicker, it must be constantly regenerated - meaning the engine will have to work even harder just to burn its fuel.

For full-size pickup trucks, the weight of an iron diesel is not that big a deal. The Cummins and Powerstroke are all-iron, the Duramax (and Jeep Liberty diesel) is iron block and alum heads.

kcram - Pickups Host

mullins87

"kc" has a good point there. Heat is an absolute necessity in a diesel engine. When the cylinder temps drop below a certain point, all combustion will stop. I can point you to at least one guy who had his engine shut down due to low cylinder temps. He was descending a long grade, foot completely off the accelerator. He just happened to glance at his exhaust temp gauge and noticed it was below 200*. He had never seen it that low and really didn't think much of it, but kept watching it anyway just to see how low it would go. It kept going down to around 160* where the engine shut down just like he had turned off the key. The truck had an auto tranny, so when it died, the torque convertor unlocked and he lost all power steering and brakes. We all know you can still turn and stop, but he said it was all he could do to stop the rig. He said he was literally standing on the brake pedal with both feet just to slow down. If it hadn't been for the electric trailer brakes doing most of the stopping, he had to work those manually, he doesn't know what would have happened.

gagrice

It will be interesting to see how these hold up being all aluminum. They tested them pretty hard in the high speed trials. That is different than starting and stopping on a cold winter's day..

The all-aluminium i-CTDi employs second-generation common-rail technology to provide further advances in fuel efficiency and refinement. It also features a turbocharger and four valves per cylinder. It will fully comply with Euro 4 emissions standards. In short, it will deliver smooth, refined, high performance motoring, matched with frugality and particularly low emissions, perfectly complementing the character of the new Accord range.

kx_dad

I have an opportunity to buy an automatic 2005 Chevy 3500 gasoline model. Brand new. for $23,000. I want a diesel, but am having a hard time passing up this truck. My plans are to put a flatbed on this truck, and will probably pull a 24 foot dual tandem gooseneck.
My quedtion: Will I be happy with this truck for the price, or will I regret not getting a diesel truck?

hendrix24

hey everyone i am looking to buy a new diesel either chevy or dodge, please help me in informing me the pros and cons of each plus what can i expect to get miles per gallon when my driving habit is easily 80% highway and 20% 35-45 miles per hour speed limit in city driving, hope everything is alright and hope everyone is able to get there opinion accross

gagrice

If I was towing a trailer that size on a regular basis, I would go diesel for sure. If you only tow it once in a while the gas will do fine. It is so much easier to tow with a diesel engine torque. They do cost a lot more and rarely do you get the rebates offered on the gas trucks. My brother-in-law just made that choice. He saved the $7000 premium and got the Dodge Hemi. He only tows once a year to Bonneville and could live with the gas engine for that trip.

flr

The following Al block diesel engines were available in Europe as of 2004. I don't think heat retention is a problem for passenger diesel. They run much hotter than truck diesels.

VW V10
VW I5
Volvo I5
PSA-Ford Duratorq 1.4 and 1.6
DaimlerChrysler 1.7 liter (Mercedes A klasse)

lins21

I'm new to this forum, and you seem to be the knowledgeable one for newcomers like me. I'm trying to figure out which truck I want to get... I'm 98% sure I'll be goin with a desiel, but which one...I'm really thinkin about the f-350. got any suggestions or comments?? mostly for everyday use but hauling two bikes and possibly a boat later on down the road. come on help a girl out, thanks~

Sylvia

A reporter would like to interview diesel passenger car and pick-up owners and Southern California residents who'd like to buy a diesel passenger car but can't because new ones aren't sold in California. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com by Thursday, July 14, 2005 with your daytime contact info, vehicle year/make/model and city/state of residence, and put the word “diesel” in the subject line.