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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread



  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,030
    I have no idea what you're talking about. There's nothing wrong with the hood.
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Posts: 508
    I'm sorry, I'm calling you out on that. I'm not an idiot consumer. I barely even had to do anything to have Honda dealers falling all over themselves to sell me an Accord EX-V6s at that price.

    I've personally never found internet pricing to be accurate on a site like Edmunds. I've always beaten that, usually be a lot. So I really don't know. I do know that Honda is aggressively pricing Accords right now because its the only way to move their product up against the 07 Camry, just like Toyota was doing with their 06 Camry. That will change when they have a new model Accord and they know that.

    You should know as well as I do (if you've ever read any of the Edmunds guides at least) about the concept of a loss leader--dealership don't make most of their profit from selling new cars, they get them from used cars and from service. Selling somebody a new car at a little bit of a loss is not necc. a bad strategy if you can get their decent trade and/or get them into your service department. That's why dealers do it.

    Maybe your friend doesn't or doesn't have to. But in the two metro areas that I am familiar with the car market (Boston and Washington), Honda dealers are now aggressively pricing Accords under invoice (and there are rebates) for anybody who tries to get a good deal. That did not used to be case on these cars, but they are at the end of their cycle and that's just business.

    So, in summary, YES, dealers will absolutely sell at that price. They make their profit on other ways, and right now Honda dealers are seeing strong money on Civics which is taking care of business anyway.

    And please, can we stop with the insults to Camry and Accord buyers? I'm not a lemming. I've never been a lemming. Just knock it off. I made a choice for reasons I've outlined, but some people just can't accept that there are legitimate reasons for buying a Camry or an Accord.

    CLEARLY, Honda and Toyota are still taking buyers from others. There is zero evidence to suggest "more and more" consumers are not heading to Camry and Accord. In fact, there is direct contrary evidence, as the 07 Camry stays on a 450k car pace. What's even more remarkable is that the transaction price is so solid. The public has spoken on the new Camry, and they're in the process of making it the most successful new model launch EVER.

    Sorry that some people don't like it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Saying the Camry was "affordable" to its market segment? I blasted a mail to Motor Trend asking how the Camry was affordable when its price upwards of $4,000 more!!?? when comparing other vehicles like optioned. I sent price comparisons from the internet. I cannot wait to see if I get a response

    You misread their statement. This is a huge mistake that many brand's marketers are making. The article didn't say it was the most affordable of the midsize autos, obviously it is not. But to nearly 1 Million buyers each year (!!! ) the Camry and Accord are very affordable. How is this fact missed by so many?

    The numbers speak for themselves, and they're growing. Lot's of people aren't paying attention. Frankly, if I haddn't just get purchased the Prius I'd have gotten my 5th 4c Camry at about $20500.... or maybe for the additonal features the TCH at about $26500. Neither one is going to affect my lifestyle one way or another. Both are affordable, as is the Accord and the Altima.

    To harp on them not being affordable is to be blind to the real state of the American buying public, then specifically to the state of the repeat buyers of Accords and Camry's.

    With a significant trade-in value even after 5-7 yrs the actual 'acquisition cost' of these new vehicles is nowhere near the transaction price. Getting a new Camry for under $15,000 is very affordable for most buyers.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Its happening evertime you see a Fusion/Milan/Sonata/G6/Impala/Altima/Legacy on the road! These people made a CHOICE to NOT buy an Accord/Camry.. Not to follow the lemmings!

    Another view: This market is HUGE and varied. It is not homogeneous. There is plenty of room here for ALL the Hyundais at $18-19K, ALL the Fulans and Malifu's at $20-22K and ALL the CamCords at $23-26K.

    This midsized market is also EXPANDING so Hyundai needs extra capacity ( it's new plant ). Toyota need extra capacity ( the Subie plant ). Yes when you see others driving the Fulans and Sonatas they are not driving CamCords. But the fact is that no single supplier can supply all these buyers even if every single buyer was the same. No single manufacturer has enough capacity. Thus it only makes sense that many people drive other vehicles. Camry and Accord buyers are limited to about 900,000 annually. There are over 2 million new buyers each year. Some one has to sell them.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    as it should, if your concern is resale values and you are one of the many folks that prefer to change rides every 3 to 5 years. Discounts up front almost always equals discounts at 'trade-in' time, minimizing or possibly even negating those initial savings.

    Understand that Hyundai is trying its hardest to live down a reputation, and is on a merciless (because they don't seem to care how much money they lose doing it) campaign to put as many American type butts in one of their cars as possible - one of the reasons why you see so many Sonatas at the airports. And the reasons why they are offering substantial discounts on the Sonatas/Santa Fes/Azeras, vehicles that are good enough that logically they shouldn't have to.

    From a marketing perspective Hyundai has bypassed the 'American' brands and has firmly set its sights on the more quality conscious Toyota/Honda/Nissan buyer. There are a million vehicles plus per year there! It should work from them in time, if the quality improvements prove out.

    IMO, the unquestioned 'value' leader of this group has to be the Sonata V6 and a very logical choice especially if you normally keep a car into 6 digits. The folks that are concerned about a stigma 'of having a Hyundai in the garage' need to learn about wry smiles!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,400
    For more than two years I've noticed more Sonatas and other Hyundais and Kias in our area driven by older, more value and quality conscious people. These are folks who normally would be driving Camry, Accord, Buick, Impalas, IMHO.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Probably quite true, and in addition they often have no one to impress nor the desire to do so.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 21,400
    I left out Crown Vics from the list of common rides along with the clones Mercury and Lincoln of the Crown Vic.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Thanks for stepping in in my absence. I'm headed to the beach in my overpriced Accord for the weekend, but might carry my laptop to check in with y'all.

    A Happy Thanksgiving to all! :)

    P.S. - You'll always fight a losing battle when trying to convince people that you didn't necessarily make the wrong decision, when they made a different one, one that they perceive is correct. I try to say we can both be right, but many won't listen to that logic.

  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Accord EX V6 (w/o navi): $24,687 (invoice: $25,337)
    Camry XLE V6 (w/o navi): $27,633 (invoice: $26,533)
    Altima 3.5 SL (w/o navi): $28,180 (invoice: $26,880)
    Fusion V6 SEL: $20,269 (invoice: $21,269)
    Sonata Limited: $20,602 (invoice: $22,202)

    Reference area: Metro Atlanta (zip code 30360)
    Mercury Grand Marquis Ultimate(2006) - every option you can possibly get: $26,320
    LaCrosse CXS(2006):$24,804(added stability control as "standard", since it comes on most of the competition)
    (same zip code - 30360)

    Volvo S60 T5 e=false
    (used my local zip code - Los Angeles - appears to be a regional inventive?)

    On the Marquis I literally checked everyting I possibly could, including the dual exhaust, the chrome wheels, the full size spare, and all the bling I could find. Something's not right with the pricing of the imports when you can get silly with a full-size car with a V8 engine and still cost less money.

    The CXS? 240HP and maximum torque at *2000* rpm. Not 3800 or 4600 or whatever. It develops about 70-80% maximum at about 1400-1600, so it pulls like a diesel. Just without the slowness or smell. The Accord V6 feels positively old-school stodgy in city traffic, and the Camry as well. They take a long time to wind up and by then... oops have to stop lest I park in the guy in front of me's trunk. The CXS was the second GM 6 cylinder car I've driven in 20 years that had no bottom-end lag or roll-on mush.(a Buick Grand National being the other - wow that was a great car)

    Like V8 driveabilty but with V6 cost and economy? Check this out.

    Lastly - um.. WHA? This is the #1 current choice in my book. It's a lot of car for the money, and well, for the next year or two, still a Swedish Volvo design(last one before Ford completely takes over - based on the old Volvo 850). So it has the same feel and luxury without "bling" that most of us want or would desire. And it's um.. yeah.. fast. Manual tansmission is available.(grin).

    Camry V6 or S60... Yeah - put your eyes back in their sockets ;) Not really much of a contest at all.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Camry V6 or S60"

    Camry all the way. Volvo is not really all that appealing. CXS? Ha! It doesn't matter what the Camry cost, they will be flying off dealers lots.

    As I previously said, I'm not much of a Toyota fan, but their cars do sell. In fact, there isn't an auto manufacturer on the face of the earth whose cars aren't on the road, just more so with Toyota and Honda.

    I'll take the old school Accord V6 anyday. At least it'll still be running at 200,000 miles.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    So will the GM. Shoot, my sister and I both managed to get 18 years almost 200K out of our 1987 and 1988 Buicks. My Mother's 2000(iirc) LeSabre with about 80K on it is bulletproof and has tons of luxury goodies on it. The engine is still perfect. The drivetrain is easily as durable as the stuff Toyota and Honda makes, so that's not really an issue.

    Buick also scores higher than most all of the imports in quality now. It's just hard to change the herd mentality away from the imports and also to take a look at GM. They no longer make the rubbish they did 5-10 years ago.

    The LaCrosse is a toad in every trim but the CXS, where it gets decent suspension and tires, plus the Cadillac engine tossed in as well. It drives so differently that GM should throw the other trims in the trash and only sell the CXS(same with the Lucerne - the CXS model is 100% a better car when you drive it than the other Lucernes)

    Me? You can keep your Camry. I've driven both and I know which one is better in city traffic and costs less to fix down the road($3500 transmission? That's crazy - I'll stick to the GM anyday. It's cheap as dirt to fix)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Me? You can keep your Camry. I've driven both and I know which one is better in city traffic and costs less to fix down the road($3500 transmission? That's crazy - I'll stick to the GM anyday. It's cheap as dirt to fix) "

    I guess I will with about 450K new Camry buyers this year.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    And many "money makers" drive mundane, inexpensive cars (like mid-sized family sedans for instance) because they know cars are a depreciating asset and would rather put their money into more productive assets--like 401Ks, real estate, and their kids (education).
  • Hi People ,Could anyone one help !Sorry it is the topic you are talk about.
    I am Trying to find a movie. All I can remember of the movie is the end of the movie when the car hits a train side on ( you think he has got away with it ),I think the car was a Dodge Charger , IT has been many years since i have seen the movie. But like to add to the car chase dvd I have got . Another scene i can remember is the car getting chase or something like that, in a orange grove. It was a great movie like Vanishing point , gone in 60 sec , Duel and many more. :D
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    There are some people who drive $50k cars, and their car is their most valuable asset. If having that car is important to them, so be it. Who are we to judge what others should spend their money on? To me a $20k car, or a $25k car, the difference doesn't make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. So I will not buy a car I don't want, just to save a couple thousand dollars. I'm sure $5k means more to some people, but it will not amount to a hill of beans, in my life.
  • maple2maple2 Posts: 177
    can i borrow $5k :shades:
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    If you're not a family member it's 25% interest. :surprise:
  • rs_pettyrs_petty Posts: 423
    "Dirty Mary Crazy Larry" from 1974. Best quote of the movie was "My top speed is unlimited..." Google Peter Fonda for more details.
  • ron_mron_m Posts: 188
    9 times outta 10, when a guy tells you about his good income, he's lying. The money makers I know NEVER talk about it.

    You're exactly right! Of all the people I've ever met or known in my life that had big, big bucks, not a single one of them would ever mention money. Not even a hint of it. Now I have known some guys that owed a lot of money that went around bragging a lot about what all they had. The problem was that they were deeply in debt for all of their toys and McMansions.
  • I have been at SF auto-show today. I was looking for next family sedan because my Sable Premium is 4 y.o. and became pretty dated design. It proved to be very reliable – did not have any problems and comfortable but still design goes back to 96 and it feels.

    Well here are my impressions. Because it is auto-show all impressions are about interior and exterior and execution.

    Let’s start with Camry – I was disappointed. On photos interior looks impressive but in real life it sucks. I did not like wide flat seats without lateral support – very uncomfortable feeling. In general interior looks and feels like a new model from Buick. I am 50 y.o. but still think I am not old enough to enjoy Camry.

    My hope was a new VW Passat. But I was disappointed again. First exterior looks like Asian car – there is nothing European or cool about its exterior. Secondly I could not find comfortable seating position. And interior has some kind Buicknish in it, it just do not look or feel cool as used to be in older Passat.

    Altima/Maxima – I do not like exterior – too ugly no style at all, I do not know who came up with these ideas. Interior is much improved but still I did not feel any desire to buy one of these.

    Saturn Aura: exterior look too Asian to me – I am not impressed. Interior looks kind of Asian too but design still is pretty good. What I did not like is some flimsiness of interior panels, like door panels or armrest. Audio/HVAC stacks on the steering wheel move – another indication of flimsiness of interior. And then – too much hard plastics – lower dash e.g.

    Chrysler Sebring – hmm, what did they mean? It looks as ugly in person as it looks on photos. Interior –to much hard plastic, center armrest is too high, overall has some cheap feeling cannot explain why. It does not look and feel like either Asian or European, may be it is a truly American design but execution might be better. May be in darker colors it will look better.

    So my choice so far is Mercury Milan. It is pretty impressive vehicle. I love exterior design – it stirs emotion, it is sweet and sexy in other word. Very European with some American touches. Interior also feels European and well executed. Soft plastic all around, supportive and comfortable seats, everything is solid - no flimsiness anywhere, soft green lightning – I do not like too dark colors like blue or too bright like red, and orange looks too cheap. But mostly no no-nonsense driver oriented tight cockpit.

    Lincoln MKZ – dash is too high and strange. Well some plastics are not for luxury car – certainly cost-cutting.

    BTW I liked new Lincoln Navigator interior. It is retro and cool at the same time - for truck it okay, but not for sedan. It also uses better materials and looks and feels more upscale than previous Navigator. I am not interested in SUVs, just found new Navigator interior coolest of the show.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    I agree, people should buy what they want. I was judging no one. I was pointing out that many weathly people prefer to put their money into appreciating assets like 401Ks and real estate rather than depreciating assets like cars. Not a judgment, just a fact.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,909
    Did you look at the Accord, G6, Mazda6, Optima, or Sonata? Although you don't seem to like "Asian" styling, so you may not like most of those cars just on that basis.

    I like the Milan also; it's my favorite domestic mid-sized family car (although I haven't driven the Aura yet). Now that side bags and ABS are standard on the Milan, I think it's a nice package even in base form.
  • I think that is part of why its so hard for me to get a car period. If I didn't pull the trigger a MazdaSpeed6 on the deals they were having (man what a car and what a deal), I'm just not gonna get something soon. I feel like I can keep the one I have going indefinitely by working on it when it needs it, and everytime I save up money to buy something, I feel guilty for not saving it or putting it a way or paying down more on the house or something. I look at what is out there in my price range and I decide its not enough of an improvement over what I have now, and I would rather do something else with the money.
    In full disclosure, we have one almost new family car that transports what is most important to me, but I keep hanging onto a 15 y/o car to go to work and back.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Live a little - buy a new ride. You deserve it. Its only money.

    The Mazda6 is a great vehicle. I say get it. Keep the 15 year old car as a beater.

    In full disclosue, I'm not a Madison Ave. ad guy but I play one on TV.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Everyone has their own priorities in life. I knew a guy who lived in an apartment, and barely made enough to pay the rent, and hardly had any left for spending money. The whole time he was driving his new expensive car though (5 series beemer), he felt like he was living the "good life". He was perfectly happy with his life (simple). My priorities would not have worked for him (way too complicated). I hope to have his level of satisfaction in my own life some day. I wonder where Mark Dyer is today?
  • "Did you look at the Accord, G6, Mazda6, Optima, or Sonata?"

    Mazda6 is too small and stiff (I mean suspension) I am too old for this stuff. G6 has monochrome cabin with low quality details and some are flimsy and hard plastic. I like G6 exterior more than Aura, but interior feels too tight and cheap. And it is narrow and long what is not a good combination. I would prefer shorter and wider car.

    I like interior and gray lightning of Accord. But still it is too noisy and too commonplace. Exterior looks like typical poorly designed Asian car, i.e. no sexy or anything - rather ugly front. It is just practical car and I want something more unique and emotional not just practical. And According :) to journalists it is less sporty than Fusion/Milan.

    Anything Kia or Huydai I do not even consider. I actually sat it Sonata and it feels pretty cheap inside – but it is expected – it is a cheap car.

    Sexiest cars I saw at the show were Italian cars. And only Italian cars were Lamborgini and Maseratti. Man those are sweet but I cannot afford having one.
  • Milan has an Italian name.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Reading through your posts, there is apparently nothing to your liking in this class of vehicle - everything from the Camry, to the Accord is too stodgy or commonplace, and you dismiss the Sonata simply because it is a Hyundai (Times are changing, my friend, and it is, in the REAL WORLD, a tremendous offering). Perhaps you need to rexamine your expectations. You're not going to find a Rolls Royce interior wrapped in the exotic look of an Italian sports car in the 22K Family Sedan market. Deal.

This discussion has been closed.