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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread



  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    and yep this whole governmental/IIHS exercise in PC and overreaction really started with some poorly designed SUVs with crappy tires!

    Here yes this is the impetus for the across the board implementation. However in europe it had already been in effect in high end vehicles and even as long as two years ago EURO/NCAP had been recommending that no consumer should buy a vehicle without ESC.

    If it really does cut down one vehicle accidents by 50% as the IIHS indicates then that's a good thing.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    MUSTANG! ohhh.... yeah.... I have a neighbor that has an 06 Black Mustang GT. He only drives it during the nice days. He had Gold racing stripes painted on the car. Larger custom wheels/tires. Wheels are chrome/gold mix and they look goooooood. Tinted windows, spoiler. He has a K&N air system and a custom exhaust. You can see this car coming from 3 blocks! Would I take it over a Porsche?? Hell yes!
  • exshomanexshoman Posts: 109
    Hey don't get me wrong, I use seatbelts all the time. Growing up, we never did.

    I think the phenomenon that was in the article is probably smaller than what they think it is. However, I too would probably drive a lot more conservatively if I had a spear in the middle of my steering wheel ;-)

    It would however explain some of the boorish behavior you sometimes see with folks in the huge trucks/suvs/vans (disclaimer - I own a full size conversion van). Some think that they are invincible with all that sheetmetal around them.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    A tornado hit 50 or 60 miles southwest of Birmingham, without a Tornado warning. People trapped in homes, tress down, boats thrown around. Storm headed my way, so I'm out for the night I think. Pray for the people who had no warning, but now a warning has been issued. All local news have gone to continuous weather coverage now.

    Have a safe night!

  • ontopontop Posts: 279
    Grad - no need to have to defend Honda vs. Ford against Fordboy. Ford cars are no competition to Honda. Anyone can say the Fusion is as good as a Camcord, but the marketplace certainly doesn't. That's why a Fusion will always be priced less than a Camcord. Until Fusion can post years and years of impressive sales figures and millions of satisfied customers, they'll always be in the second row.

    It'll certainly be harder for Ford to post years of big sales figures when they shed 50% of their workforce. Ouch.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    despite the perceived (incorrect) perceptions

    I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the redundancy of that statement which made the statement meaningless.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    Just saw your post #9518.

    Good luck to you and family and let's hope the people who had no warning are all OK.
  • I agree. Hope all is well! Here in the Midwest, we got hit (in Ohio) with 4 hour flash flooding(still nasty) and over in Indiana and Illinois, snowstorm of 6-12 inches of snow(and 35-50MPH winds tomorrow)...
    Keep safe.

    Now, about mid-sized sedans. Since this thread started in April(05 or 06? I forget).... we have had the new Sebring(like it or not) and new Optima( not bad).

    Have test driven both, and like both.
    But, if I had to choose, I might pick the Optima(07) over the Sebring.
    Sebring seems to be about 1000-1,500 over priced. I noticed that the price was advertised 3 weeks ago as 18,995 for a base sedan, and it is now down to 18,329! Also, chrysler sent me a $1,000 Cash Back coupon for 07 (and any unsold 06 model cars, new). Now, if they would just lower the price 1,000 to begin with, and sell it for 17,329 (every day), they might get somewhere.

    Considering you can get a Manual (5 speed)Optima(a rarity in this class, isn't it?), for less than 17K.....and after arguing, bargaining, get a decent auto-manual I-4 for maybe same price as Sebring on sale...
    (I like the auto-manual).

    Anyhow.... pretty soon, the new Malibu will debut, early in 08(?). If the interior shots recently posted on the net are any indication... it may be a good buy.
    take care/not offense.
  • It'll certainly be harder for Ford to post years of big sales figures when they shed 50% of their workforce. Ouch.

    Oh it WILL, huh? Got any facts or figues that prove this? Didn't think so...

    Ford is doing the right thing offering buyouts to their (admittedly) excessive workforce. They've realized that they don't have as much of the market as they used to, so they're doing what they can to adjust, and become profitable again. It may take up to 2009 (by some estimates), but who knows? It just might actually work...

    "Big sales figures" aren't achieved by 3-shift factories puking out 1 million cars per year that are garbage, they're achieved by QUALITY product, as proven by Honda and Toyota. Their quality has come from heavy investments into R&D, money that was wasted by the Big Three for years in below-capacity factories, with workers (both blue- and white-collared) that were paid big $$$ to do next to nothing, with insurance and pension plans that drained even more $$$.

    Buyouts to baby-boomers (and others) make sense, both to Ford and the workers that can benefit from this. Will it help Ford to become profitable again? I don't know, you don't know, nobody does...
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,000
    It'll certainly be harder for Ford to post years of big sales figures when they shed 50% of their workforce.

    Ford doesn't want or need big sales figures. Market share is worthless if it's not profitable. That's why you're seeing the Fusion and Edge with modest sales goals, modest production numbers and low or no incentives. The goal is profit and being able to shed the costs for those workers that took the buyout (a lot may change their minds so the final number will be less) and close plants/shifts that aren't needed is one thing that will help Ford weather this storm.

    And Ford has already stated it will start adding features and upgrades instead of cutting costs and decontenting like it did in the past. One sign of that is the Edge offering Navigation and the Vista Roof which, in the past, would have been exclusive to Lincoln.

    The Fusion debuted in 06, added AWD in 07, scheduled for a hybrid in 08 and a platform refresh in 09 which should include an upgraded interior, powertrain and more features. They're not letting cars die on the vine anymore.
  • Speedometer readout from leftover 1980's Timex alarm clocks and two tier dash is example of poor design IMO. the Civic. I thought this example of digital design disaster died in the 1980s with the K-Car as manufacturers returned to traditional, simple and legible gauges.
    Horizon displays have a lot of legibility benefits, especially for older drivers. That large numeral for the speed and its position further from the driver reduces accommodation effects while providing a lot of the advantages of a much more expensive head up display (HUD). The Prius uses similar technology.
    I personally thought the prev. Civic cluster was hard to read with minimal markings for speed (every 20 mph) and limited number of markings in between. If 70% of the time the car is between 0-50 mph, you might as well make it easy to read at those speeds.
  • That article has so many logical flaws that I could write an article about it. There is not enough information in there to draw the conclusions claimed. Score one for attention grabbing pop-science.
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    Unfortunately, it's not the case in our area within a 100 mile radius. The best price I've found on an Accord SE with the Inline-4 is $20,288. This is not a bad price, but not in the ball park of the heavily discounted Accords, especially the V6's as posted by thegraduate.

    Our dealer is very smug when it comes to negotiating - it's essentially take it or leave it, as he says: "Someone else will buy the car if you don't."
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    I priced the Sonata and no way can you get a loaded Sonata for $18K...

    Not sure what you consider loaded, but buyers have reported offers on the top-line Sonata Limited around $18.5k in the Sonata Prices Paid discussion. Go check it out if you don't believe me.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    have no doubt that single vehicle accidents will be reduced by a bunch - that 'dumbfootedness' comment I made in an earlier post - and as you suggest a good thing. But, it is still beyond me why many folks will expound on these 'safety systems' when they don't understand how they actually work. Have a real problem with those that would contend that ESC is a 'most important' safety feature - that honor should be reserved for a good set of brakes and/or a dynamically balanced good handling car or even seat belts - NOT for some guy deciding what I am or am not capable of doing in my own car.
    If I was still driving on snow covered roads, the first thing I would want to do is shut something like VSC/TRAC off, an option that many cars do not have. And if you do have to do that a lot, you should understand why!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    There is a compelling video on one of the Subaru (edmunds) boards that shows what ESC/VDC vs no ESC/VDC can do in slow wet emergency maneuvers using different cars. I don't know if I can find it, but if I do I'll post the link. It is an eye-opener.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    there are very compelling videos also available touting the effectiveness of ABS - which BTW does not reduce stopping distances (only allows you to maintain control while effectively lengthening stopping distances) and I have no doubt that circumstances can be easily contrived to illustrate VSC effectiveness - just as I can contrive specific circumstances that might just cost me my lunch just like the one that did happen to me!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    Real-world braking tests in CR clearly show that ABS shortens both wet and dry stopping distances.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    If you don't want to understand I'm not trying to convert, just enlighten. When you see one car do a 360 without a VDC and another car just continue on it's way as if nothing happened you have to stop and think, that maybe that one time this thing might make all of the difference in the world.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Nice try with the spin, but a 100 year automobile company that is shrinking in an environment where the global market is exploding and the potential for huge sales numbers down the road is huge - is BAD NEWS!

    This is a major league cluster when the rest of the world is going all out to capture the millions of new car buyers coming down the pipe. China, India, Latin America, Brazil, in addition to North America are all BOOMING!

    Hyundai, VW, Honda, Toyota, BMW - all jamming.

    Ford, Mitsubishi, Volvo, Jaguar, Isuzu - not.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    backy - then maybe you have an explanation as to why that is - shortening stopping distances by releasing the brakes doesn't seem to make sense does it? Maintaining vehicle control because the wheels are not locked, however, does.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    Maybe because the vehicle isn't sliding along the pavement, wheels locked, but actually stopping?

    Or maybe CR faked the tests because they want people to buy cars with ABS. :surprise:
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    read something that Ford is trying to sell its PAG (Premium Automotive Group) which includes Jaguar, Aston Martin, and Land Rover - Jaguar apparently being the lead weight that nobody wants. Volvo may also be included. If this all happens and apparently the Koreans have been taking a look at it, what do you think happens with what used to be the #2 automaker in the world? a nonfactor perhaps?
  • Spin? I don't think so, considering I wasn't talking about the GLOBAL market, only the U.S. market, where yes, they have been losing ground, and yes, 38,000 hourly U.S. workers took the buyout. The global market expanding has NOTHING to do with the fact that Ford is shrinking in the U.S. market.

    If Ford wants to compete globally, they'll build plants out of the US, where labor is cheap, for markets out of the U.S. Besides, Ford of Europe is actually doing very well, from what I've heard.
  • backy - then maybe you have an explanation as to why that is - shortening stopping distances by releasing the brakes doesn't seem to make sense does it?

    When you skid you melt rubber off the tire. Melted rubber is a liquid. The coefficient of kinetic friction (dry pavement) is .8, the coefficient of kinetic friction (wet pavement) is .7 in good condition, .4 in a more worn condition.
    Friction of Various Surfaces
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    don't confuse a distance test with the ability to keep a car in a lane - CR is certainly going to champion anything that is a perceived safety feature - that is their bias. Once you define a measurable distance as one that must be contained within a set of lane markers (which is logical) and you also understand that no human in the world can possibly pump a set of brakes as fast as ABS can, there is no contest. And no, haven't seen the CR tests you are talking about, just guessing what 'rules' they might have adopted to come up with the PC result.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    The "rules" are simple. They often test different versions of a car. For example, in a recent test of small cars, they tested some with and some w/o ABS. The models with ABS in every case stopped shorter--meaning less distance--on both dry and wet roads.

    Since you didn't read CR's tests, how can you say the test was biased or make any kind of informed guess as to what rules they may have applied?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    My understanding is shortest stopping distance would occur by applying the brakes enough to be just on the verge of skidding without actually skidding. ABS can come closer to approximating this than you can, so it will stop the car in shorter distances.

    stopping on snow or ice may be an exception to this is, where abs may lengthen stopping distance.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    If I was still driving on snow covered roads, the first thing I would want to do is shut something like VSC/TRAC off

    Why? My wife's car has ESP (VW version of ESC). The only time you would turn it off would be if you want wheels to spin to help get through very deep snow. In normal snowy road conditions you should want it on as it will help maintain control.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,000
    You do understand that most small cars come with rear drum brakes in the non-ABS models whereas the ABS models are 4 wheel discs - right?

    The only fair test is to use a car where the ABS can be turned off and on.
This discussion has been closed.