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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you're kidding! one of the most ludricrous examples of how far down the CYA path we've gone....
  • you're kidding! one of the most ludricrous examples of how far down the CYA path we've gone....

    I have no problem with this, people feel they can "outdrive" the system, then let them, but then they are on their own. I don't think people deserve to have it both ways anyway. Why should the manufacturer be responsible for that?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    ever read any George Orwell? Welcome to the past!
  • So what?

    I don't think it's a bad thing either. In this sue-happy society we live in, I don't blame the manufacturer for taking steps against paying out in lawsuits for someone else's stupidity. I wouldn't want that liability, would you?

    There's no Orwellian connection here. I just blame the lawyers, like everything else they've screwed up...

    You purposely decide to turn off ESP to showboat and you wreck your car, too bad!
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Ok so we can shoot all the lawyers, but there is also a potential for the opposite to be true. The fact is, that these systems do limit ultimate evasive capabilities - just like that M5 article I referenced or just for grins check out what happens with the Chrysler 300 - a C&D July 2005 road test. If this is the case, as things like acceleration times, skidpad performance, and lane change numbers would indicate that yes these systems do exactly that - then, what happens with all your lawyers when the car wouldn't let you avoid something, that you (who like most folks overestimate their own abilities) THINK you could've avoided without the interference you encountered with the system on? Betcha those lawyers would be licking their chops.
    It is an interesting problem. Keep in mind Big Brother has mandated these things in our cars by 2010, I think.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Honda's system is actually O-F-F off! Some systems like in Mercedes just raise the intervention threshold. Others don't even give you the option (Toyota?)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and I assume that even if you turn it off on purpose, it automatically rearms itself the next time you start the car? Likely means that it is on basically all the time?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    You must push the button to disengage it once the car is restarted, yes. Most of the time, I assume 98% of drivers would want it left on. I would - 98% of the time, that is.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and as much as I dislike this idea of a computer making driving decisions for us, I would tell you that 99%+ of the drivers need to have it on 98% of the time. The only time I would consciously turn it off - snow and/or ice covered roads.
    I do have this image in my head that has some 16 year old kid intentionally driving hard enough to get the system to work, experimentation, if you will, and a situation not good for any of us 'sane' older folks that happen to be on the same roads.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Since emergency maneuver problems with your FWD car would most likely involve understeer in the mix, wouldn't the ESC work better than anything you could think of doing to regain control. I here of people using emergency brakes to give the FWD some oversteer drive dynamics, but really, that sounds a bit dangerous. What exactly can a person do with FWD in say entering a curve too fast. Natural reaction is to slow down, which is taking foot off the gas or braking. I can see how, in theory a RWD car without ESC may be in some stretch of the imagination more controllable without it on. And I too have heard of the over-eager ESC like on the Chrysler 300 possibly slowing your more sporty / fun runs.

    You said you have the four cylinder Honda. It came with ESC or is that an option on the 4 banger?
    -Loren
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    It (ESC) is only on V6 models.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    understeer is an inherently safer condition for any car because that correction for entering a corner too fast for example, is intuitive - meaning lifting off the gas. FWD vehicles because they must understeer (that tendency to want to go straight out of a corner) with that front wght bias, are therefore a better setup for most drivers. Very few vehicles will oversteer (want to go deeper into that corner) although it is possible to induce oversteer with a little throttle action on some RWD cars. The best example I can remember of an oversteering nightmare was actually a early Porsche 911- and yes, when you got in too deep, the best thing to do was counterintuitive - nail the accelerator.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,904
    You guys are all assuming the ice is complet and all over, thereby negating the benefits of AWD. You are also assuming that maintaining control with the help of ESP wouldn't be beneficial, but in many cases it could be.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,904
    Wow, did you buy my Neon? It was brilliant blue.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    No, it was an ugly white that looked like there was never any clearcoat applied.(or so little that it faded as fast as a one-day paint(tm) paintjob).

    Now, truth to be told, my 20 year old 4Runner isn't much better(engine is fine, though) - but it's a *20 year old truck* versus a 5 year old car. And it has a cool of-road factor, since it has off-road equipment on it and the dents and dings to prove it's been there and back. The perfect commuter-beater. ;)

    The Neon was just... there. A thing with 4 wheels and a windshield. Good riddance.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    yes it could - but given a choice in this kind of situation (iced over roads), give me the AWD before the stability control.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,904
    I can't imagine what would happen if a kid used to driving with ABS-equipped vehicles gets behind the wheel of a non-ABS-equipped vehicle and gets into a panic-stop situation.

    I can imagine it, they'll go into a skid and still stop fairly quickly, but with no control whatsoever.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    to fully address your point - if the correct reaction to an understeer condition is lifting throttle and shooting some juice to your brakes (even better a specific brake) these are both things that ESC would be more than happy to do for you faster than you could do it yourself. To me, it is more a question of at what level does this happen, by definition it must happen at some level below what the car is actually capable of, otherwise it wouldn't be a 'safety feature' at all, would it?
    IHTSA is estimating that 10000 lives may be saved if all cars had some sort of stability control on them, primarily in single vehicle loss-of-control accidents. Have no doubt that this may be true unless folks end up driving around like crazed banchies mistakenly thinking that their computer is somehow making them immune from the consequences of bad judgement.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    One article with spy photos had estimated the Mazda6 would grow by 7 inches in length. Maybe the 6 becomes a large car and the 3 will also grow and become the midsize and something new will become the compact.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    I am thinking ESC systems, because they can brake a wheel at a time, may indeed work well with FWD cars. I am sure you have heard of the Preludes with the fancy electronics to help them behave more like a RWD car. In a way, is this not a handy helper for the FWD. And I suppose the anti-lock brakes systems are more important these days considering all TOO much weight up front with FWD while trying to brake, let alone steer around a turn. I always feel more secure moving down a hill with RWD. With FWD the lower gearing just is not doing it correctly due to engine braking up front, and with even more load of weight to the front, I can feel the end plowing more. My bet is that there is some serious under-steering going on at that moment, and if brakes locked, off ya go. Also the pitching of the car towards the corner of the loaded side. Now going uphill allways feels OK. Well unless radically steep, then once again more problems for FWD if wet roads or ice is a condition. For simple light snow or rain, and on most roads, FWD feels pretty good. And like you stated, the natural tendency is to back off when scared during a turn, which let's the FWD car settle down and possibly slow down the under-steer as it bites in better and the rear floats out. Most every car out now has FWD, and right now I am driving a FWD, but I kinda miss the little Miata had used to sport around the country road in. That said, there are some great handling FWD cars. Test drove a Celica one day, and it was pretty fun. Would say a FWD is the same as good ol' RWD though.

    Best stopping car I ever had was a Dodge Stealth with 4 disk brakes, but know anti-lock brakes. Strangest brakes were on an Achieva which were the only anti-locks I have ever used. After the car was stopped, the back end would give a little jump, like a skip or push. I got the brakes adjusted and it was alright for a few thousand miles, then started to do weird stuff again. But alas, we are talking pretty old fashion anti-lock. Those used today on GM cars is likely three or four generations of technology higher. I may get anti-lock next time.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Won't it just be the same size as the Fusion? The press is always saying it is too small compared to the Camry, Accord, Altima and such. Yet they are saying it is the most fun to drive. What sells though is important. If Mazda can not find enough people will to buy the smaller, they are somewhat forced into resizing venture. Hopefully they lengthen without making it less maneuverable in the process.

    I think the Mazda3, which is selling well, remains its size for some years to come.
    -Loren
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    My 92 Accord had anti-lock four wheel disk brakes, and it saved me at least two times from hitting a car that pulled out in front of me on a wet road. I could hit the brakes as hard as I wanted, and still control the car. I would have hit both cars without anti-lock.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    No offence, but that's debatable. ABS helps you stop straighter, not faster.

    It was likely that your driving skills is what saved you from the potential accidents.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Well, if there is limited traction, using what limited traction you have is how ABS helps you stop shorter than locking up and sliding, I believe.

    It may be debatable, but as the driver of a car without ABS (which helped me end-up in a guardrail) and the driver of one with ABS and EBD which has helped me stop in wet conditions where my old car would normally slide (one particular intersection downtown where I've slid straight through an intersection before - scared me silly!)
  • Jan 07 Sonata sales down 38% from one year ago. 5th straight month of declining Sonata sales. Anyone know what's going on?

    Meanwhile, sales of the 4-year old designed Accord are up. Is it that Hyundai doesn't have any staying power or something else?

    Elantra, Tibby, Azera, and Tucson also down.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,601
    ABS helps you stop shorter than locking up and sliding, I believe.

    Actually, limited traction causes a longer stopping distance for cars with ABS since the brake may be "off" when contacting a "traction" portion of the road. The reason for ABS is to allow the driver to be able to steer the car, which he cannot do when the brakes are locked.

    You probably don't have to deal with snow/ice very often in Birmingham. Where I am in CT, I have a steep winding hill to navigate to get to the main road. Depending on snow/ice conditions, I've slid a bit sideways going slower than 5 mph (I don't have ABS) due to having to manually pump the brakes even while in 1st gear. (That problem existed on that road with either manual or A/T.)

    After the initial political correctness, a lot of insurance companies no longer offer a discount, in CT, for ABS equipped cars.

    Yes, ABS can help avoid an accident. I'll probably want it in my next car, years from now (may not have a choice, LOL) but I don't think it's as important in avoiding accidents as traction and stability control.
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,904
    Laws of physics:

    Rolling traction is greater than sliding/skidding traction. Therefore, greater traction means more braking power.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • XLE V6 Camry 60.5 mph
    3.6 Passat 4Motion Wagon 62
    Hyundai Sonata LX V6 62.1
    Mazda6 63.1
    3.6 Passat Sedan 63.7
    Legacy GT Wagon 63.9 (4-cyl, 250 hp)
    Saturn Aura XE V6 64.0
    SEL V6 Ford Fusion 64.2
    EX V6 Accord 64.6
    3.5 SE Altima 67.0
    [from Edmunds.com]

    The big surprise for me is that the V6 Accord came in second, ahead of the Passat, Aura, Legacy GT, Fusion, and Mazda6. Since I drive a V6 it is a happy surprise! :)
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Actually no. Published in test after test after test, in limited traction conditions, non-ABS cars (or cars with their ABS disabled) stopped shorter. This has been a truism since the dawn of ABS, and was widely publicized by the anti-ABS crowd back when it was first being offered by manufacturers. The most extreme example of non-ABS cars stopping shorter comes when in deep snow or when on a gravel road, IIRC, the non-ABS cars stopped as much as 20% shorter than ABS equipped (or enabled) cars.

    That having been said, the absolute benefit of ABS is the resultant vehicle control. You may well not stop as quickly, however, you will be able to maneuver when in a full on panic stop with ABS, not so without.

    For my part, I prefer ABS equipped cars with a defeat switch, which gives me the best of both worlds. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Jan 07 Sonata sales down 38% from one year ago. 5th straight month of declining Sonata sales. Anyone know what's going on?

    Meanwhile, sales of the 4-year old designed Accord are up. Is it that Hyundai doesn't have any staying power or something else?

    Elantra, Tibby, Azera, and Tucson also down.


    Do they still sell the Tiburon? I haven't seen a new one of those forever.

    Hyundai's appeal is low pricing. Obviously that's not enough appeal. They should change the name of the car. Hyundai is a quirky name....quirky cars too.
This discussion has been closed.