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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,192
    How are they going to make profits when they're already starting all the discounting so early into the year? Instead of building 5 mid-sized sedans - Malibu, CTS, Lacrosse, G6, Aura, they should focus their engineering on building 2 kick [non-permissible content removed] cars, one mainstream, one luxury and sell them like hotcakes.

    I posted a comment just like this one many months ago. GM should examine the Accord, the Camry -- and then build a better car in every way!. Sell it at a loss if they have to to be competitive. Think of the PR that one car would get, what value it would add to the brand name. Change consumer perception! Ten pretty-good models aren't going to do it.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Nope, the base model, all 164HP of it. :shades: Car looked great, drove the corner well, and got decent gas mileage (and a large tank).
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Have you driven the Aura? The 3.5 is good -- 3.6 is really fast! It is a competitor. Even if you come away thinking it is less in one way or another, it has its good points. Seems quiet on the road. Depends what you are looking for. I could point out a plus for the Aura over the Accord say, though I could also note where is has a negative score. It is right in there among the rest in class from Japan. The 3.6 in the XR is really a spirited ride. Of course the other two, Accord and Camry scoot along well. I would say handling is good with both Accord and Aura. I do like the Honda road feel, though road noise is more prominent. Have not driven the Camry, but going by the numbers, it is quick. Steering a Camry though is usually too sport like, so that is one of several reasons I did not try it out. The transmission woes and such have me concerned. I am wondering now about the New Malibu looking perhaps too close to the Aura. Will they just eat up each others sales? Aura is fresh now, and a good lookin' car.

    -Loren
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    The hybrid will be the Aura's four cyliner model and will get 28/35 using 2007 ratings. There's your four cylinder. If you want a cheaper four cylinder the G6 is available and the Malibu will be this summer. BTW, the Aura hyrbid will not be much more than a COMPARABLY equipped Acccord/Camry four cylinder. We all know that those two cars start under $20k but the models most people buy with the features people want are over $20k. The Altima starts at $18k but that model doesnt even have AC standard so who really cares.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "Actually, having been in several GM pushrods, I can tell you that I felt that the I4 Accord is much smoother and less thrashy at high RPMs than the 3.4 and 3.8L engines on which the 3.5L and 3.9L GM engines come from. "

    The 3.5L and 3.9L have nothing to do with the 3800 whatsoever. Furthermore the 3500 and 3900 are heavy evolutions of the 3.4L V6 and have VVT and are way more refined. If you look at the recent C&D test you will see the 3.5L Aura is about as quiet as the Accord and Altima 4 cylinder cars in the test.

    "The 2006 Malibu and G6 were pretty sad in comparison with even the Altima, which isn't particularly well-made. Again, one experience, one perception, but that was mine."

    Totally disagree. My brother had a renatl 2006 altima and it was far cheaper looking than the G6 and had huge panel gaps in certain location. There is no way that it was in a different league than the GM cars. The new one is much better but is still very similar to the G6 on the inside, right down to the round air vents.
  • ontopontop Posts: 279
    When you buy an Accord you know you're gonna have a solid vehicle 4-5 years from now, and that it will also retain a lot of its value.

    When you buy a Aura (or similar GM) you know you're gonna have a loose vehicle 4-5 years from now, and that it will also lose a lot of its value.

    Plain and simple reality of Japan vs. domestic.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "The engine is not very smooth or powerful. The blinker stalk feels like it's about to fall off (but then it's felt like that for 4 years now). The seats are not comfortable. Not a pleasure to drive. My Accord is smooth, comfortable, solid, and everything works like it should. That is the difference to me, and worth the extra cost, if any IMO. "

    This is the problem with making generalizations based on last generation models. The new Impala is far more refined than the last one. The new Malibu will be far more refined than the current one. The G6 is more refined than the Grand Am and so on. This is why they REDESIGN cars in the first place. I can assure you the tactile feel of current GM midsizers is far beyond my 2002 MY vehicle. I rented a Lacrosse a few months back and its interior components were far better than what's in my car. The stalks, switches and materials were all top notch and just as good as anything in the camry or Accord. Sit in or drive the Aura and compare it to your Accord. Every door is damped, every knob has heft, every stalk moves precisely. Trust me, its not a step down from an Accord. You pay more for an accord to get resale value.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "When you buy a Aura (or similar GM) you know you're gonna have a loose vehicle 4-5 years from now, and that it will also lose a lot of its value. "

    My parents have a '98 Intrigue that is still rock solid. Loose vehicle? please, GM sedans are amongst the most rigid in industry.

    Speaking of Japanese cars and high resale value, let's remember that Toyota and Honda are the ones with the great resale. Mitsubishi, Suzuki, Nissan, Suburu, etc. are not that great. Hyundai (Korean) is also average in resale. If you really care about resale than you need to get a German car.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America I70 & I75 Posts: 23,628
    >GM should examine the Accord, the Camry -- and then build a better car in every way!

    I'll bet GM has already thought of that. ;) And Honda and Toyo and all the others. They buy a car and take it apart and take the parts apart, looking for engineering and money-saving techniques as well as patent infringments.

    2015 Cruze 2LT, 2014 Malibu 2LT, 2008 Cobalt 2LT

  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "How are they going to make profits when they're already starting all the discounting so early into the year? Instead of building 5 mid-sized sedans - Malibu, CTS, Lacrosse, G6, Aura, they should focus their engineering on building 2 kick [non-permissible content removed] cars, one mainstream, one luxury and sell them like hotcakes."

    The rampant discounting you are talking about lasts until 2/20 and is a very limited promotion. As someone esle stated Toyota dealers are running President's Day discounts as we speak. I looked at some dealer ads yesterday and Camrys, Corollas and everything else in the Toyota lineup is being disconted by the dealer. The Corolla already has a factory rebate available. The new Altima/Maxima/Sentra are also being discounted at local dealers and the Maxima has a factory rebate available. What was your point again?

    As for killing brands and streamlining, Gm tried that with Olds and it paid no dividends. Didnt boost sales, didnt help grow or even maintain share. They had to cut one brand and they did so but it didnt make the drastic improvement "experts" predicted. Now people are suggesting they should cut more brands to grow. It wont work. As for "few cars = huge sales numbers per model" I think its important to note that only the CAmry and Corolla sell in huge numbers for Toyota and only the RX and ES rack up big numbers for Lexus. The rest of Toyota's products are either average sellers or marginal players on the market. In fact Toyota is the sales leader in two categories (based on nameplate basis); midsize cars and compact cars. Toyota keeps getting share because a) they have had a constant flow of new products in recent years and b) they are constantly expanding their number of offerings.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    have heard reports of untamed torque steer in the XR, much like the older Altimas. Wonder if you had a chance to push it that hard? While it may not quite keep up with the Camry/Altima, it would seem that it should give the current Accord V6 a run. The 3.6 may, indeed, be GMs entry into this high performance V6 race. Hope the Aura/Malibu does well, it would be good for the car buyer to have as many good choices as he can.
    Incidentally, while Toyota has deservedly been receiving some bad pub for its new trannies - understand it is not a transmission problem in a traditional sense - it is a computer problem. Other than a few hundred trannies that did get out of the factory with a physical (snap ring) defect, all others issues (for several hundred thousand cars) seems to be in computer related gear selections and engagements. Not to excuse Toyota, but these recalcitrant multiple speed electronic 'learning' transmissions infect many many cars from a variety of manufacturers.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Steering a Camry though is usually too sport like

    :confuse: I thought Toyota's were always known for having vague steering and handling. Have not driven one recently, though.
  • If you are one of the folks that like the sound of a 4 cylinder winding out, thats cool, I can totally understand that, but agian, someone who likes rev-happy engine noises isn't the person who is looking for a plush sedan like the Saturn.

    Actually, having been in several GM pushrods, I can tell you that I felt that the I4 Accord is much smoother and less thrashy at high RPMs than the 3.4 and 3.8L engines on which the 3.5L and 3.9L GM engines come from.

    I have found the 3.8 to be more than adequate, I think its main strength is it doesn't have to rev. The Grand Prix rental (man is that a big car) had no issues with maintaining speed on the Conejo grade, the Cuesta grade, or the Grapevine w/4 people and luggage (and a dog). It never felt thrashy to me.
    The Vulcan Taurus had a little bit more trouble with those hills with roughly the same load, but the Fusion (4 cyl) was fine, as was the duratec Taurus. The last Accord I had for that trip was a 4th gen but it spent a lot of time in 3rd and 4th.
    I'm glad you have a car you enjoy so much and feel so passionate about. This is why there are so many different models available, so everyone can find something that makes them happy. :)
  • Hey guys....you can use (math) statistics to "proof" ANYTHING. It really is just another factor that we must all consider when it comes to making our choices of purchases etc.. Every vehicle will have something happen to it sooner or later, big or small. We have to try to figure it all out, and all of the sources available ?? help ?? us do just that. ;) ;) Wheee ain't it fun ?? ;)

    van
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If you look at the recent C&D test you will see the 3.5L Aura is about as quiet as the Accord and Altima 4 cylinder cars in the test.

    Noise insulation does not make an engine more refined, smooth, or less thrashy when revved, with all-due respect. It simply mutes the noises and engine is making.

    My brother had a renatl 2006 altima and it was far cheaper looking than the G6 and had huge panel gaps in certain location. There is no way that it was in a different league than the GM cars. The new one is much better but is still very similar to the G6 on the inside, right down to the round air vents.

    I guess we can agree to disagree. The G6 was worse in design (to me) than the 05-06 Altima, but now the Altima is really Pontiac-busy inside too, so I'm pretty sure I wouldn't go with either. On exteriors between those two, I'd go with Pontiac.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Should have read NOT too sport like.
    --correction needed & noted-- :blush:
    Loren
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I have found the 3.8 to be more than adequate, I think its main strength is it doesn't have to rev. The Grand Prix rental (man is that a big car) had no issues with maintaining speed on the Conejo grade, the Cuesta grade, or the Grapevine w/4 people and luggage (and a dog). It never felt thrashy to me.

    Under 3,500 RPM they are fine; it's just when you need to punch it to pass when the old 3.8L gets rowdy. I guess it's not bad considering its age. I think Moses had a 3.8L Oldsmobile when he was a kid... :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Good. I was about to be REALLY concerned with you, having just read the questioned comment myself. :)
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    QUOTE:
    "If you really care about resale than you need to get a German car."

    Hogwash! With VW reaching for the stratosphere in pricing most model lines and Mercedes recent reliability issues, Hondas and Toyotas are unbeatable for resale value.
    Example: traded a 2yr old Tundra D Cab - got $27K for SR5.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If you really care about resale than you need to get a German car.

    But you need the high resale to make up for the high cost of maintenance and repairs!
  • Noise insulation does not make an engine more refined, smooth, or less thrashy when revved, with all-due respect. It simply mutes the noises and engine is making.

    I personally don't mind a little bit of engine noise when I am on it. A bit of a growl is okay with me. I don't need to be so isolated from the driving experience as to feel like I am in a sensory deprivation chamber. It's not a big secret that there is an engine in the car, I don't mind hearing from it occasionally. Its a mechanical thing, it is going to make some noise.
    My previous vehicles had an aftermarket performance exhaust systems anyway (Borla, Bossal, and Dynomax)and I liked the exhaust note as the engine reved up. The Borla on the 2.5 duratec was fantastic. Come to think of it, they had intakes as well. Those were amazingly loud.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Well the 3.6 V6 is a kicker. Best used on the RWD CTS, but fun enough on the Aura, as the front wheels beg for some traction. That instant power I am sure truly belongs on the back wheels for best launch of the missile. It is almost too much for the Aura FWD car.

    I have not driven a new Toyota Camry. Should give it a go, I guess. Don't care for a CVT Altima, so that is out.
    -Loren
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I personally don't mind a little bit of engine noise when I am on it

    Personally, me neither, as long as it is a pleasant sound, which is why I drive an (loud by today's standards but still quiet by mine) Accord.

    By the way, it was funny and scary to see a girl nearly hit by a Toyota Prius in our parking deck at school. The Prius saw her so it wasn't a near-death thing, but it certainly scared the girl. She never heard it coming because it was running on electric-only at the time. Interesting.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    The new Altima with automatic tranny isnt faster than the Aura. Only the Camy V6 is faster than Aura V6 unless you count manual transmission V6 sedans in this class.
  • By the way, it was funny and scary to see a girl nearly hit by a Toyota Prius in our parking deck at school. The Prius saw her so it wasn't a near-death thing, but it certainly scared the girl. She never heard it coming because it was running on electric-only at the time. Interesting.

    How timely of a comment... my Autonews safety breifing had this article linked:
    BLIND PEDESTRIANS SAY QUIET HYBRIDS POSE SAFETY THREAT
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "Noise insulation does not make an engine more refined, smooth, or less thrashy when revved, with all-due respect. It simply mutes the noises and engine is making. "

    Honestly, it doesnt matter. You can make whatever excuses you want, but the Aura is just as quiet as the competition even with the OHV engine. 60 degree V6s are naturally more balanced than 4 cylinder engines regardless of the layout of that V6. This why fours always have a degree of buziness when revving and V6s do not. The OHV v6 may make a different type of sound, but its not a less refined or louder sound.

    You think the old Altima interior is better than the current one? That is the first I have heard of that. I think the old Altima interior was one of the worst in class and the current car is now on par with GM sedans and the Fusion/6 but not as nice as Camry or Passat.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    You think the old Altima interior is better than the current one?

    Well, I was only able to judge a new 2006 Altima vs. an Auto-Show veteran 2007, which already looked rough and beaten up somewhat. The design of the 2006 wasn't bad to me, but I don't like the busy-ness of the 2007 version. I don't necessarily mean, quality, but design.

    Honestly, it doesnt matter. You can make whatever excuses you want, but the Aura is just as quiet as the competition even with the OHV engine.

    Nobody's deabting quietness; I'm debating smoothness. And to me the GM "High Value" V6s tend to sound more coarse than the Honda I4. My opinion is mine, yours is yours. At least we can move on. Agree to disagree :).

    fours always have a degree of buziness when revving and V6s do not.

    Eh, just drove into town today, had to gun it to merge - revving to probably 5,000 RPM. No buzz, just smoothness. Car and Driver seems to have the same impression I do according to their Article comparing 5 4-cylinders and the Aura. Here are their comments on the Accord engine:

    Second, the powertrain is marvelous. It has torque, it is hot-blooded for revs, the vibrations stay out of the cabin, and the transmission is never in the wrong gear (even though it lacks a manumatic function). At redline the exhaust snarls, a lively contrast to the other cars, which have nothing to offer but a rising crescendo of whirs, hums, and buzzes.

    MOST 4-cylinder's will buzz; not the Accord 2.4L. Actually, my 2.2L in the 1996 model doesn't buzz either, but it sure gets loud relative to new cars!
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Oh gheez you should have heard my dad's 1975 Cutlass Supreme with a 350 V6 the previous owner stuffed in it.

    Or my old 1967 Mercedes at higher rpms.

    Or any motorcycle.

    Feh. Who cares whether it sounds like a sewing machine or not if it goes like stink or has an amazing feel to it.

    that said - no contest between an old GM 3.8 versus any import's 4. I'll take 200+ lb-ft of torque anyday.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Loren- the funy part of this contradiction is that the use of that CVT (which I can understand not liking) and the associated computer control is what has largely eliminated that torque steer that Nissan Altimas/Maximas have had for years. And yep, some folks will find the 'tugging' annoying and others will find it 'fun'.
  • psst...the EPA changed the testing protocol for MY 2008, hence the drop in estimated MPG. This will affect MPG ratings for all 2008 models. Of course this doesn't affect real world mpg, only reflects it more accurately.
This discussion has been closed.