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Hybrids Success in the Marketplace - Hybrid Sales Numbers



  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    You cant buy a hybrid if you cant find one.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    your post generated a couple of thoughts:

    1. Hybrids are not just for "super high mileage" cars. Toyota has repeatedly pledged to make hybridization an option for every one of it's cars. That means all engine sizes. And that's not a mistake because hybridizing ANY CAR creates a higher mileage version of the same car, regardless of the engine size. A V6 with a hybrid option will get better mpg than a V6 without. A V8 will do the same. So hybridizing larger engines is not a mistake in itself. Whether car buyers want to spend the extra money for the hybrid option on larger cars is still up for debate.

    2. The "old thinking mindset" that hybridization is only for small cars with small engines needs to go away. Toyota will be helping send that old notion on it's merry old way.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    A V6 with a hybrid option will get better mpg than a V6 without. A V8 will do the same. So hybridizing larger engines is not a mistake in itself. Whether car buyers want to spend the extra money for the hybrid option on larger cars is still up for debate.

    I think the buying public has spoken. The Hybrid Accord a big flop. The GS450h a Big flop now the new Highlander hybrid looks to be a flop. I think the Toyota will get the picture and build hybrids for economy and forget the rest. Across the board hybridization is a poor notion that is not paying off for Toyota. Hopefully we have seen the last with their luxo barge hybrid LS600.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Confucious say:

    One car "flop" does not a "public has spoken moment" make.

    And saying "across the board hybridization is a poor notion that is not paying off" is being a little premature, since they haven't even starting really getting into it large-scale yet - they are still VERY MUCH in the "toes in the water" stage right now.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    Do you have a link for Toyota saying they will hybridize any more after the last few flops? One car flop? You think Toyota is happy with sales on the GS450h, RX400h and HH this year? Even the Camry hybrid sales are flat.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    sure do:

    Dated 10-3-2007

    "If investment in future low-carbon technologies are taken into account, Toyota, the world’s largest car maker, does better: it will have hybrids across its entire range by 2020, and by then expects to be marketing fuel-cell cars commercially."

    Yes, ONE CAR flopped. The Accord hybrid. Not even a Toyota.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    * Despite the introduction of newly designed Highlander, its sales declined from 2,347 in Sep-2006 to 193. The reason is they increased the length, width, height and the weight of the vehicle and the green-minded people have rejected this as Hybrid model.

    You do know of course that the new 2008 Hybrid Highlander hasn't been delivered to the US yet. :surprise:

    It's only due here around Nov 1. The 193 are the few remaining 2007 HH left over.

    Now we also have to add GM to the mix with it's very capable 2-Modes. Initially they are estimating 10000 Tahoes and Yukons then followed by an Escalade, Malibu, Aura and Vue 2-Mode hybrid.

    Having the two largest vehicle makers in the world whipping the hybrid horse should have everyone here in NA ready to consider at least the option to drive a hybrid.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Do you have a link for Toyota saying they will hybridize any more after the last few flops? One car flop? You think Toyota is happy with sales on the GS450h, RX400h and HH this year? Even the Camry hybrid sales are flat.

    Accuracy is KEY to forming a valid opinion and conclusion. The fact that the OP made a huge error in accuracy shouldn't be the basis for anyone else coming to an additional erroneous conclusion....if you catch my drift.

    Here is a key concept to keep in mind regarding all the hybrids from all the manufacturers. The system is a electro-mechanical method to improve the worst characteristics of the traditional Otto cycle ICE; i.e. the City driving part of a vehicle's life.

    All the hybrids on the road now, including the 2-Modes soon to come, accomplish the same benefit. Each improves the Highway driving efficiency slightly ( 10-20% ) but each improves the City driving dramatically ( 40-60% ). If one could look at the entire NA fleet of vehicles, pick out the worst fuel-abusing characteristic, then magically make it go away that would be a huge benefit, would it not? Consider it done.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    Do you really think that Lexus is happy with their foray into hybrids? Or are they just being pushed by Toyota? The October sales with no tax incentives will tell a better tale on Toyota hybrids.

    As far as the GM hybrids. They better get the bugs worked out of the Saturn hybrid before they have another 1980s diesel fiasco on their record. GM single handedly made diesel cars taboo. They could do the same with hybrids.
  • The Accord Hybrid failed because Honda made a rare and fatal miscalculation. They used the gas/electric motor combination not to save gas (which I believe is why people actually buy hybrids, duh), but to increase power. Is anybody really going to pay a premium for what is, after all, a family sedan! just to get a little extra kick, vs. just buying a low-end BMW instead. Don't think so.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    That is exactly what Toyota and Lexus have done with 4 out of the 6 hybrids they manufacture. So did Toyota screw up 66% of the time? Only the Prius and TCH are economy offerings. The rest are advertised as you can be green and still win the 0-60 MPH race. Especially the last two offerings from Lexus.

    The last Lexus hybrid is lucky to get as good a mileage on the highway as the non hybrid model. Get yours today only $30,000 more for the latest hybrid from Lexus.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Do you really think that Lexus is happy with their foray into hybrids? Or are they just being pushed by Toyota? The October sales with no tax incentives will tell a better tale on Toyota hybrids.

    What is there to be unhappy about? First the vehicles get improved performance which is a key selling point for these luxury vehicles..

    then as an added benefit..

    each of the three has significantly improved City fuel economy, which is exactly what I stated above is the goal of all the hybrids

    RX400h over the RX350: 28 City vs 18 City = 36+% fuel saving
    GS450h over the GS430: 22 City vs 16 City = 27+% fuel saving
    LS600L over the LS460L: 20 City vs 16 City = 20% fuel saving
    (all new 2008 ratings )
    On top of this...there is a small bump in the highway fuel economy.

    None of these vehicles are ever going to compete with a Corolla or Civic or Prius as fuel mizers they are not intended for that purpose and the buyers don't expect them to be. A Lexus buyer looking primarily for ultimate fuel economy is likely to look at a top trim Prius. But, those Lexus buyers wanting the Lexus cachet and performance can get both along with vastly improved City fuel economy in one of the 3 Lexus hybrid. Again what's not to like?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    You are ignoring the fact that all 3 Lexus hybrids do exactly what they are intended to do...

    1) Maintain the Lexus experience and cachet;
    2) Improve performance
    3) Improve the City driving fuel economy to be equal or better than the Highway driving fuel economy.

    None of these are intended to get 30 or 40 or 50 mpg. They're V6's and V8's.

    IMHO HOnda screwed up by putting the hybrid in the Accord. If anything it should have gone in the Acura TL. Toyota did it right by selling the performance to the buyers that appreciate it.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Toyota has made only one hybrid mistake that I know of:

    They offer the Highlander in a V6 "non-hybrid" version.

    What they SHOULD HAVE DONE is tell buyers this: If you want a V6 Highlander, it only comes as a hybrid.

    Because IMHO, anyone who buys a V6 Highlander with the V6 hybrid sitting RIGHT THERE AND GETTING BETTER MILEAGE is just a fool looking for some money to waste.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 4,098
    "Because IMHO, anyone who buys a V6 Highlander with the V6 hybrid sitting RIGHT THERE AND GETTING BETTER MILEAGE is just a fool looking for some money to waste."

    The current Toyota site does not list an I4 when one builds the vehicle. I didn't know they dropped the ICE only I4. So I suppose you are saying that Toyota should only offer the Highlander as a hybrid?

    Isn't there a pretty big difference in price between a base V6 Highlander and an HH? Maybe people don't want to spend that much on their purchase, or can't afford it.

    I'd quote prices but the Toyota site doesn't seem to have any pricing on the "build" for the hybrid.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Well, no, I'm not saying that. I based that statement on the availability of the 4 cyl Highlander when the HiHy originally came out.

    I guess if all they offer is a V6 now, then that argument is moot. LOL
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I think we have passed a milestone in the current hybrid "movement" as it were.

    Although there is no indication of slowed sales, I seems as if:

    1. Fewer people have questions about their hybrid cars. Does this mean the salespeople are doing a better job of preparing the owners? Does it mean the cars are no longer intimidating new hybrid owners? Are we so far into the movement that many people are on their second or third hybrid and don't have as many questions?

    2. There are fewer people throwing stones at hybrid technology. Is it because the "hybrid payback" issue has finally been settled? Is it because gas prices stayed up and people are seeing hybrid payback in a new light now? Is it because some of the naysayers themselves or someone close to them got a hybrid vehicle and they have been silenced? Is it because everything bad to say about hybrids has been said for the umpteenth time, and countered by hybrid fans for the umpteenth time, and now there is nothing more to to do than beat the dead horse? Have so many hybrids proven their point about economy, reliability, and gas savings that the naysayers have run out of good ammo?

    3. Hybrids don't seem to be the "mysterious for tech geeks only" car they were a few years ago. Is it because of advertising, or word of mouth, or merely because hybrids are now "just another powertrain option on the lot" for buyers?

    This will be the first full month of sales without any of the Toyota/Lexus hybrids getting a tax credit. It will be interesting to see what kind of effect it has on total sales versus October 2006.

    Will be very interesting to see how the upcoming clean diesel cars from Honda and others do when they hit the streets in the next 2 to 3 years and see what kind of discussions they generate among car enthusiasts.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204

    Hybrids Post Strong US Sales in November; Up 82% Year-on-Year
    6 December 2007

    Reported sales of hybrids in the US in November rose 82% year-on-year to reach 33,233 total units, representing 2.8% of all light-duty vehicles sold during the month. GM does not break out its hybrid sales separately, and so is not reflected in the hybrid number—thus, the actual hybrid total and new market share will slightly higher.

    Total light-duty vehicle sales in the US dropped 1.6% year-on-year in November to 1,179,848 units, according to Autodata, with sales of light trucks dropping 7.4% and sales of passenger cars increasing 5.5%.

    Toyota posted a strong month, with Prius sales hitting 16,737 units, up 109% from the year before. Camry Hybrid turned in 5,118 units, up 65% from the year before and representing 14.5% of all Camry models sold. Sales of the Highlander Hybrid were back up after a slump for several months to 2,577 units—an increase of 55% from November 2006 and representing 20.9% of all Highlander models sold.

    On the Lexus side of the house, sales of the Rx 400h climbed 26% to 1,674 units compared to November 2006, representing 20.8% of Rx 350/400h models sold. The high-end Lexus 600h posted 170 units, for 6.4% of the 2,668 units sold of the LS 460/600h models. The GS 450h posted 100 units, down 43% from November 2006, and representing 46.3% of the combined GS 460/450h sales and 4.5% of all GS models.

    Ford turned in strong results for its Escape and Mariner hybrids, with combined sales up 50% from the year before to 2,224 units, representing 15.2% of combined model sales.

    Honda’s Civic Hybrid posted 3,238 units, up 47% from November 2006 and representing 12.9% of all Civic sales in the month. The Accord Hybrid posted 204 units (0.9% of all Accord sales), down 34% from the year before.

    Nissan had its best month yet for the Altima Hybrid, with 1,191 units representing 6% of all Altima sales. The Altima Hybrid is sold in only eight states.

    See the charts here:

    Hybrid Sales not going down
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Toyota sold 277,750 hybrid vehicles in 2007, up 44 percent from 2006.
  • California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger drafted legislation to curb greenhouse gas emissions and increase fuel efficiency at nearly double the rate the federal government and EPA set a goal for. 16 other states followed this legislation, basing theirs on the groundbraking work in California.

    Now Governor Schwarzenegger plans to sue the federal government over its decision not to allow a California plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

    Is there any greater advocate from 2007?

    P.Fezziwig, administrator for
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 8,292
    Hey... that's a step towards one of the predictions I found for 2008!

    2008 automotive predictions

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  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 431
    Hybrid sales in Mar-2008 have set records again.

    Prius - 20,635
    Camry - 6,930
    Highlander - 2,239
    Rx400h - 1,570
    LS600 - 113
    GS450h - 65

    Toyota Total 31,552

    Honda Civic & Accord sold total of 3,782 and total of Toyota & Honda is 35,334.

    SUV's & PU's have gone down while CUV's and many small cars have gone up.
    The Top-4 companies (GM, Ford, Toyota & Chrysler) have suffered sales declines of 10 % +.

    Timing for them to push into Hybrids.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    link title

    With $4-a-gallon gasoline seemingly just around the corner, sales of high-mileage diesels and hybrid-electric vehicles are expected to triple by the middle of the next decade, according to a new study by J.D. Power & Associates.

    Power predicts the two technologies will achieve a combined 17 percent of the U.S. new car and light truck market by 2015, in part driven by the auto industry’s need to meet the recently-enacted 35 mile per gallon federal fuel economy mandate.

    Diesels and hybrids won’t be the only way to deliver 35 mpg by 2020. The new J.D. Power study foresees a big surge in the use of 4-cylinder engines. Manufacturers also are expected to turn to lighter weight materials, since lower mass means higher mileage.

    Automakers are already seeing a shift in product mix, with a steady increase in the sale of small cars, even as big pickups and SUV lose market share. New technologies, such as Ford’s direct-injection EcoBoost engines. Are designed to permit the use of smaller, more fuel-efficient powertrains with a minimal sacrifice in performance.
  • As gas prices stay high or continue to climb we will see Hybrids seem attractive to more and more customers. Here are some I see:

    Minivan market:
    Toyota and Honda need to make a Hybrid mini-van. Some families just need the minivan a hybrid in this market with even 20% fuel improvement would sell like hotcakes.

    Small Luxury market:
    Many of the Lexus and Acura owners are not swimming in money they just want to buy a high quality car. So there is certainly a opportunity for a Luxury Hybrid that gets mileage closer to Prius than LS600.

    Fun Market:
    A convertible Hybrid would clean up!! Imagine a Toyota Solara convertible hybrid. Or a Mazda Miata hybrid! There are none in the market yet...but just one would gobble up all the FUN GREEN people out there.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    None at the Mazda dealer. Tribute Hybrid not sold nationwide.
    None at the VW dealer.
    None at the Chrysler dealer.
    None at BMW dealer.
    None at Nissan dealer. Altima Hybrid not sold nationwide.
    None at Hyundai dealer.
    None Mercedes dealer.
    None at Kia dealer.

    If you had to predict when hybrids will be available from all the major manufacturer's in the US, what year would you predict?

    And yes, I realize that Toyota is doing a fantastic job selling hybrids, I'm just surprised there are not more choices.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    There are currently 5 Honda Civic Hybrids at Lujack Motors in Davenport Ia. as of right now. Two weeks ago they had 11.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    All those manufacturers have hybrids in the upcoming pipeline. You can Google and get approximate dates for all of them.

    Just goes to show how far Toyota (and Honda to a lesser degree) REALLY got ahead of everyone by foreseeing the market feasibility of the hybrids.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    We are a very large store in VA. 1 out of every 2 internet inquiries is about the Prius. How, How much, when, which packages.

    At the beginning of April we had 50 on the ground and enroute. At the beginning of May there were 2 on the ground and all the ones enroute had been sold. In the last 5 days every one has lasted less then one day on the ground. Most of the inbounds for the end of the month are spoken for. 48-50 mpg gets attention.

    The Camry hybrid is solid but nowhere near the interest of the Prius.

    The Highlander hybrid is languishing. By intent I think.

    GM is the next big influence IMO. They have a whole fleet of real capable vehicles just about to hit over the next 1-3 years. Not the mild hybrids that are here now but the new 2-Modes.

    Ford will have several new ones as well.

    Chrysler is wondering when Y2K will get here. They also have no intention to crowd dealer lots with tiny small vehicles that have no margin when fuel is only $.90 a gallon.
This discussion has been closed.