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Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia and Buick Enclave



  • selooseloo Posts: 606
    Did you pay MSRP for the Outlook?

    What kind of deal did the dealership give you on the X5?

    Does the Outlook really out accelerate your old 4.4 X5?

    If so, is there a maintenance problem with the X5's engine or transmission?

    Has your MPG improved? 22 MPG is not impressive.

    I would be interested to hear more about your car adventure.
  • barryo2barryo2 Posts: 18
    Online retailers are a great leverage point with your local dealer. I prefer to shop local to keep the money in town, (thats why I wont buy anything foreign, unless used - I want to let our domestic makers keep the profit here, and it builds prde - The bad quality was in the past, and they deserve my buck for all the improvements). Try to work with your local dealer, and tell him you can get it for Invoice on line, but you want him to have the business (remember they get a 3% holdback (about 1K), so thew will usually work with you. The salesman does not get the holdback, so going over invoice gives him something for answering the phone. Anything more, and you are paying too much in my opinion, and I would shop elsewhere.

    Its all personal, but I believe in paying reaonable, not ripoff. The internet works great if they wont deal, and you want a no hassle experience. Order - pay - pickup - drive home - no dickering. I live a few hundred miles from Dave Smith, and he has a huge dealership in the pan handle of Idaho. He must be doing something right, as he has been sued by the local dealers to try to shut him down - the courts sided with the consumers, so he stayed in business. I am sure all the internet dealers which have good BBB rating are worth looking at.
  • husky92husky92 Posts: 56
    My local buick dealer was willing to go at invoice - $100, but I felt bad for him, as he did a nice job of trying to sell me an Arcadia, so I gave him invoice + $100 for my enclave, which I have on preorder.

    Wow! A car salesman that got you to feel bad for him? That's a good salesman.
  • husky92husky92 Posts: 56
    GM, Ford and Chrysler build machines with as good if not better quality than any import (or semi-import) sold today. Hard to kick the mind-set though, espcially since companies like Toyota continue to bash the airwaves with commercials touting quality when they are no better than any other vehicle on the road today. Even outright lying, like the "bullet proof" truck ads. A quick visit to the web sites where vehicle problems are tracked by the U.S. Gov will show all cars have issues. None are excluded.

    What is the best place to look for any real data on long term reliability? Is it Consumer Reports? I am not a fan of their studies, but every single Toyota and Honda model is listed in the recommended list of used cars and not a single Toyota or Honda is in the "avoid" list of used cars which is littered with European and American cars. Any other decent sources for this type of info? I don't put much stock in "initial quality". What the heck is that? It didn't fall apart when you drove it off the lot?

    These boards are worthless for evaulating quality since, as you said, everybody has problems. Personally, I had bad luck with my '95 GMC Sonoma. I had the motor replaced at 4000 miles and the clutch went at 60,000.

    My '97 Honda Civic had no problems until about 125,000 miles when my ABS light came on. Basically, I have no ABS now, but it's not worth fixing. The jury's still out on my '03 Sequoia. We had the VSC computer go out at 40k miles. We complained to the regional manager and thankfully got it replaced under warranty even though it wasn't.

    Having said all that, if you have any empirical evidence to backup your statement that "GM, Ford and Chrysler build machines with as good if not better quality than any import (or semi-import) sold today.", I'd like to see it.
  • selooseloo Posts: 606
    Please be clear on this point.

    $500/$800 under invoice is the price that the dealer is selling the car, then you subtract all incentives for the final price paid by the customer?

    How many extra fees to they ad to the deal?

  • hipreckhipreck Posts: 67
    Seloo, I did pay MSRP. They had no desire to haggle at any of the Saturn dealers. My MSRP was $30170.

    My X5 was the 3.0, the 0-60 times are very similar. The Outlook has a little more high-end grunt/torque feeling to it, but the transmission is slower to respond. I typically drove the X5 in Sport mode (more aggressive shifts).

    The X5 engine was solid as was the transmission. It did take BMW a while to get the transmission right (and note that GM made the transmission for BMW).

    For the MPG, note that the 2008 EPA numbers will be 24/16 for the FWD versus the current 26/18. I'm guessing that mine will improve while the engine continues to break in, but it may not hit 24 when doing 75 MPH.

    Here is the EPA info on the new FWD numbers for 2008. Surf around and you can look at the adjustment for all cars. model=Outlook%20FWD

    I'll post more info next weekend after I complete my Florida trip.
  • We bought our Outlook XR (FWD, white, tan leather, adv. audio, touring, trailering, conv pkg) on January 3rd. Wasn't planning on buying one yet, but Dad gave me his $1k retiree certificate which pushed me over the edge. Dealer backdated the sale so I could use the cert, which expired on Dec 31st. Wasn't going to do it without it... MSRP was 34k + dest, ended up paying 29993 I think before tax. Gotta love GMS. So far we absolutely love the vehicle, though I wish I would have held out for the package with the memory seats. With almost 4k on the car, mileage has stabilized a bit. Driving nice in stop and go I get about 17-18, and driving 80-85 on the highway I got 23 on our road trip from GA to TN. When driving from our house in the sticks to the highway with no traffic (driving 55-60 pretty consistently) MPG was hovering around 25.7. Pretty happy with that for the size of the vehicle. The interior room is incredible - I'm 6'7" and almost 350 lbs, and I have never been more comfortable in any vehicle I've ever driven. We're driving from north of Atlanta to Savannah at the end of the month, and it should be a much more pleasant trip for 4 adults than it would have been in the VUE (really liked it, but just a touch too small for my big self).

    If I had it to do over again, the only thing that I would change is I would probably not get the touring package (although these don't seem too bad yet, I generally HATE Eagle RS-A tires with a passion), and would have gotten the memory seats and power passenger seat. I'm not super impressed with the advanced audio either, but I don't know what the standard audio sounds like. I might sell it when the '08s are out to get exactly what I want if it works out financially. Still leary of first year vehicles, but other than the expected recalls we've had no problems.
  • bobfishbobfish Posts: 48
    I have no proof of quailty of american autos,but I have owned many different models some new and some used from General Motors for thirty years now.In that time period I never had any major problems with any of them,I`m not saying that american cars do not have problems( I think all brands do domestic and imports alike).As for buying a Honda or Toyota I would not have a problem with that but I think they are on the most part over priced.As another poster stated its hard to change the mindset of the american public.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    JD Power is the best site if you are looking for scientifically controlled statistics.

    They have 2 major polls. Initial quality which is the problems per vehicle the owners report in the first 3 months of ownership. YOu are correct that this is not as important anymore since MOST everyone is down to about 1 problem per vehicle. The rank order (starting at .9 problems) is Porsche, Lexus, Hyundai, Toyota, Jag, Honda, Cadillac, Infiniti, GMC, Acura and it continues from there. But again the range is from .9 to 2 with an industyr average of 1.2. Not much difference anymoer.

    For longer term Power does a 3 year vehicle dependibility study and the ranking is Lexus, Mercury, Buick, Cadillac, Toyota, Acura, honda, and it continues with a range of 1.4 to 4.4 problems per vehicle with an industry average of 2.3.

    Again not a heck of a lot of difference.
  • barryo2barryo2 Posts: 18
    In the past, I have had to pay 200 - 300 (depending on the dealer) for a signing fee (Paperwork thing), and 1% advertising fee (350 on a 35K car). Also, some dealers do not honor all the incentives (i.e they will not always allow you to do a 0% APR with a 800 under invoice. You do not get a straight answer until you actually get ready to buy. Some dealers are much more up front. The internet guys usually tell you exactly what the fees are.

    Please remember, GM is very secretive about upcoming promotions (they do not want people to put off purchases until a future date), so do not expect the dealer to tell you what you will be eligable for in 6 weeks when your car shows up.

    If the dealer is clear and up front, it is a good sign, and probably worth doing business with, as he will be there for you in the future. I am willing to pay a little more for straight answers.
  • selooseloo Posts: 606
    Thank you for reply.

    My question is focused on your statement: DaveSmithMotors is 500 under invoice for preorder, or 800 if on lot.

    I would like to know if that price is before or after incentives and/or fees?

    If it is before incentives then the final price will be much lower.

    A few years ago, I purchased a new car at $1500 below invoice ($500 below the invoice price and $1K of factory incentives plus a factory backed discounted interest rate. (there were no ad-on/BS fees) The manufacture also extended the warranty to 100,000 miles at no charge to me or the dealership (the warranty really paid off for me)!

    You need a below invoice car price, then minus the incentives (which could be cash or 0% or a combination of the two) Never hurts to have GM points or other credit card points.

    Let's review the bidding:

    A invoice or below invoice car price.

    (-) incentives

    (-) No BS Fees (Just padding for the dealership)

    (-) GM Points or other certificates

    That should be a fair deal! If you cannot get a deal like that they walk.

    Good Luck!
  • barryo2barryo2 Posts: 18
    Specific to Dave Smith, it is 500 below invoice before incentives for an off the lot, and 800 below for an on the lot. There is absolutely no BS. Other dealers may vary.

    You can call and get a free quote.

    In addition, they are now one of the few dealers who have the Enclave up on thier web site, so they are preparing for delivery.
  • kjf18kjf18 Posts: 16
    The only thing they can say about the Outlook is to note the air bag sensor recall (which was only a quick software update)? Give me a break.

  • husky92husky92 Posts: 56
    That's great info. Of the Lambda platform cars, I am very excited about the Enclave. Actually to see Buick in the top three is impressive. And it's probably intentional that they get their version last to insure at least some of the initial problems are resolved.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Posts: 6,048
    Not sure why it was last but not because of quality concerns. GM cadences its launches to not overtax their Engineering, plants and suppliers. I know the data is not public but almost all of GM's new cars have done very well for quality. It is the older models that drag down the averages (past model trucks were the worst of GM). As these vehicles are replaced the averages will go up.
  • sanman4sanman4 Posts: 10
    Dealer got the invoice yesterday, with delivery scheduled for next Monday (we'll see if that happens). I ordered on Jan. 31. Once I've got it, I'll post initial experience.
  • newz54newz54 Posts: 30
    I ordered my acadia from a local dealer on Feb 1st. It has now been six weeks but they still don't have a build date. Seems rather long. I keep calling them but they say the factory has not given them a date. Is that possible? Any suggestions?
  • Depends on how good a deal you were given. If you paid close to invoice, I'd wait him out a few more weeks. If, on the other hand, you paid somewhere close to retail, I'd sit him down and explain the situation to him -- something like, "You will get me a firm delivery date by 3/20, or I'll happily accept my deposit back and go elsewhere."
  • sanman4sanman4 Posts: 10
    On Monday March 12, my dealer told me mine had not been built. On Tuesday they got the invoice, with arrival date of 3/19. Since I ordered one day before you, you should hear soon, unless your color is a problem or something like that. Mine is Carbon SLT1 with AWD.
  • bobfishbobfish Posts: 48
    I ordered a white(Arcadia) SLT2 FWD on Feb.9th and I haven`t heard anything from my dealer yet either.
  • Howdo you order a car and not know the name?!?!

    Acadia..not Arcadia.

    Wait time right now is 6-10 weeks.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Posts: 1,739
    I live where they are made and GM decided not to add a 3rd shift at the plant as far as final production goes in order not to flood the market place and my guess is to do what the foreign companies do and create a high demand which keeps the price high and keeps them from having to offer rebates which GM is trying very hard to get away from. If you have noticed that what rebates that are out there aren't for the most part anyway near the amount of years passed. I for one hope this works as it also keeps the used price higher allowing the current owner to get a better return on their orginal purchase price.
  • nxs138nxs138 Posts: 481
    GM decided not to add a 3rd shift at the plant as far as final production goes in order not to flood the market place

    It's working: I hardly see any on the road!

    Kidding aside, I don't think GM will need deep rebates to sell the Lambdas. Lots of press and activity on forums, and reviews look good. If people are willing to pounce on these, why not flood the market? Let's not forget that once the Veracruz, CX-9, Highlander, and Pilot get into full production, GM will have to fight a little harder to get customers' money. They have a lead right now, it'd be stupid to screw it up by limiting the number of vehicles out there.
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Posts: 1,739
    All flooding the market does is devalue the ones already sold. It has worked for Toyota and Honda for years. The Honda mini van you never saw on the lot and most people took what they could get when one became availible. If the GM's are as good as everyone says then people won't care about the other makes just like they didn't care about the other minivans, they waited for the HOnda.
  • kenymkenym Posts: 405
    The ONLY reason that strategy worked for Honda was because they built a QUALITY vehicle that people wanted and not simply because they didn't flood the market with vehicles to keep prices up . :shades:
  • Just purchased (leased) a FWD Outlook XR. Gotta say it is a great vehicle. After 1500 miles here are my general observations for anyone looking to buy or lease one.


    - Great engine.... smooth, powerful, quiet and get's decent gas mileage for a 4500lb CUV

    - Manual Shift mode. I use this around town a lot and it really showcases how powerful the engine is and is easy to use.

    - Exhaust note. Never expected this one but the dual exhaust sound very throaty, Cool bonus.

    - Handling. Never in a million years did I imagine this huge CUV would drive like it does. It just amazes me.

    - Roominess. This one needs no explanation.

    - Stereo. I am impressed with the standard sound. I like loud quality music and for a std stereo this one is very good

    - Quietness. Car is very quiet at speed. no tire or wind noise to speak of

    - Quality. This will be tested over time but everything has a solid feel to it. The doors close with a solid thunk, the panels all line up nice, paint is top notch, the interior is nice and the wood trim seems like a nice touch to on a base model.

    - Styling. This is subjective but I love the way it looks. I happen to think the new Acadia, Outlook and Enclave are the best looking new CUV's out there right now. Sort of combines the smooth lines of the Murano with the rugged stance of a bigger truck. That's my opinion of course.


    - Transmission. It just is not as smooth as it could have been. And yes, it has a lag. When you ask for a downshift sometimes you have to push the pedal way to far to get it. It also depends on what gear you are in. And in general it has to downshift too often to move it along at a good pace. It has gotten better or I have just learned how to work around it but I understand there is a SW fix in the works. It is certainly not as bad as some folks have stated.

    - Stereo. The only problem is no multi-disc changer in the std stereo. BUT, it has an MP3 jack and a nice placeholder for my ZEN so I can listen to my music library.

    - Mirrors. This is not really a low as I like the cool shape but beware the car wash. Make sure you fold then in before you go through as they stick out far. I already cracked the pass side mirror.

    That's about it. Overall I am very happy with it so far. I also have a Caddy STS and a Lincoln Zephyr and I prefer to drive this. I do miss all the goodies some times (memory seats, heated seats etc.) but not too much. It is very good in the snow even with FWD. I guess because it's heavy but it was great in the snowstorm we just had here in NY.

    GM has a winner on it's hands with the lambda's and if your in the market for this type of vehicle I would recommend a look at these.
  • zman3zman3 Posts: 857
    It has gotten better or I have just learned how to work around it but I understand there is a SW fix in the works. It is certainly not as bad as some folks have stated.

    GM has already issued a software fix for the shifting issue. People that have had it done seem pleased.
  • bobfishbobfish Posts: 48
    Relax take a chill pill ,spelling was never my strong point,so I spelled it wrong. SORRY to all who might have been offended.MR jsantangelo please forgive me I know I am not worthy to be on this site as I can see I am not as perfect as you!!!
  • dmathews3dmathews3 Posts: 1,739
    and you think GM don't build quality products? If so why are you wasting your time and our time by being here. Last I knew there are a whole lot of Honda Forums here and the few I have looked at on occasion seem to have quite a few problems too. For one the Honda hybrids that are sitting on the dealer lots because no one wants them. :shades:
This discussion has been closed.