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Buying American Cars What Does It Mean?

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Comments

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited September 2015
    I think it was a Chery I saw at the Detroit Show, oh, four years ago I guess. Any day now....
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Here’s what your foreign cars have done to Michigan (Opinion from the Washington Post)
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    Give it 5 years and you'll see Geeleys coming out of that plant for North American consumption.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,377
    5 years? That might be a little soon.

    I wonder if they'd market a blatant copycar.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    I think they will use the plant as a launching point for one of their entry level cars - maybe the MK Cross SUV.

    If you look at their lineup, there aren't what looks to be any copycat styling. It's boring but not copycat:

    http://global.geely.com/vehicles.php
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,377
    I see a few that heavily borrow from Toyota, at least in profile (GC7, MK, Emgrand 8, maybe more).

    Material and structural quality will be interesting, as I don't believe these sell in the first world, with its pesky regulations and expectations. With used cars being so good these days, I don't know if I could need a new one that badly.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    edited September 2015
    Well there are only so many styling cues so it's inevitable there will be some similarity.

    As for the latter point, they own Volvo and we all know the reputation they have for material and structural quality. One of the their reasons for buying Volvo was to gain access to their engineering prowess and understanding of western tastes. All the latest Geelys have had much Swedish input.

    What people forget is that not everything the Chinese touch is junk. Having had experience with their manufacturing capability, I've learned that if one specifies low grade, they make low grade. If someone specifies high grade, they make high grade. Don't forget that your E Class is full of Chinese parts that were specified by Daimler to a high spec. Further, all those E, C, and GLK classes being made in China are not junk.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,377
    Yes, as the Chinese auto industry has no history of blatantly ripping off other designs, it's all coincidence. Just similarity.

    I see nothing showing Geelys and Volvos share anything in engineering, design, or assembly. The only reason for buying Volvo was for their engineering and presence in western markets - when someone is being dumped on the market, a time comes when it is easier to buy than copy. Sure China can build competent things, but cars and laptops or phones are different things.

    The E is still ~75% German content, ones for first world consumption not assembled by a leading IP/social/environmental offender. "Full of" might be hyperbole from sources that profit from the relationship with our most favored "partner".
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    "Good artists copy, great artists steal."

    >The E is still ~75% German content, ones for first world consumption not assembled by a leading IP/social/environmental offender.

    That would be Volkswagen?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,377
    Comparing VW to our most favored "partner" has to either be facetious humor, or something less amusing.

    Of course, some just want cheap goods, no matter the externalities.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMPosts: 7,615
    edited September 2015
    Give it 5 years and you'll see Geeleys coming out of that plant for North American consumption.

    Many moons ago we had a thread on Edmunds about "Would you buy a Chinese car?" or "Chinese cars - look out, they're on their way," or a title to that effect. I've plopped a picture of a red Geely GC5 on my icon page. Nice look. Italian styling right from a famous Italian designer. I'm going to be interesting-Americans will buy Chinese cars. I'm thinking of Korean Kia right now. People still hate them but I noticed a spring in my 1999 Kia Sephia's step that stuck out to me.

    Sure, you can find a better car. But for value I don't really think Kia can be beat. And factor in Peter Schreyer's body designing and an engineering team that can build value cars that last and you've got a car company worthy of being a true sponsor of the NBA.

    Take a look at Geely's website. They've got some motion going there. I'm wondering what kind of motion that might be 'round about now.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    fintail said:

    Yes, as the Chinese auto industry has no history of blatantly ripping off other designs, it's all coincidence. Just similarity.

    I see nothing showing Geelys and Volvos share anything in engineering, design, or assembly. The only reason for buying Volvo was for their engineering and presence in western markets - when someone is being dumped on the market, a time comes when it is easier to buy than copy. Sure China can build competent things, but cars and laptops or phones are different things.

    The E is still ~75% German content, ones for first world consumption not assembled by a leading IP/social/environmental offender. "Full of" might be hyperbole from sources that profit from the relationship with our most favored "partner".

    Yes, some Chinese automakers have blatantly ripped off other manufacturers. IMHO, those are never going to become world class manufacturers.

    As for Geely and Volvo sharing engineering, I give you CEVT - China Euro Vehicle Technology SA - a Goteburg based company whose sole focus has been to design the CMA architecture to underpin the new B and C segment Volvos and Geelys. CMA will be used for a Geely crossover to come out in 2016 and for the new Volvo 40 series due in 2018.

    The words "full of" were mine and a poor choice. I should have said that your E contains Chinese made parts and AFAIK, it's not having an effect on it's quality nor reliability
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    I remember my dad making fun of VWs and their "lawn mower" engines back in the 60s. Same story by other people about Korean cars. No reason to expect less from the Chinese automakers - the good ones will compete just fine.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMPosts: 7,615
    No reason to expect less from the Chinese automakers - the good ones will compete just fine.

    Just how many American automotive manufacturing and engineering jobs are we taking away by heading down to our local Kia dealer and buying a Kia? With parts swapping and buying and selling and a colossal schmearage of shared profit snarking worldwide especially since the late 1990's, I'm thinking we're taking some-but not a killer blow amount.

    Especially with Uncle Sam around to help - the Korean government helps the Korean carmakers out, too. Right?

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    The bigger issue to me is open access - we let your cars in, you let ours in. Let the market decide who's good enough to stay in the ball game.

    The US can start by killing the Chicken Tax.
  • berriberri Posts: 9,750
    Yeah, let's reward China's behavior and corruption by letting their cars in the US on favorable import terms. Frankly, I think we need to reassess all of these trade agreements because by and large they seem to be lopsided against the US. It's not just tariffs, but all of the rules, behavior and bureaucracy these countries throw at American company products to impede their distribution and sale - And in general, Asian countries seem to be the worst in this area.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    What if those cars were made here in America?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Alamogordo, NMPosts: 7,615
    edited September 2015
    Yeah, let's reward China's behavior and corruption by letting their cars in the US on favorable import terms. Frankly, I think we need to reassess all of these trade agreements because by and large they seem to be lopsided against the US. It's not just tariffs, but all of the rules, behavior and bureaucracy these countries throw at American company products to impede their distribution and sale - And in general, Asian countries seem to be the worst in this area.

    Ya just made me wonder, berri, if there's not some buying off corruption going on in the upper echelon of the U.S. government (from the foreign governments) that cause this lopsidedness. :s

    Could it be a duh, even?

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • berriberri Posts: 9,750
    Robr - I'm alright with that as long as the US China plants are given the same terms they force on GM and Ford plants over there. But I'll bet if we did that those plants will not be forthcoming B)

    sephia, I don't know if it's payola or just this goofy attitude of some American elitists that we need to help other countries even if it is at the expense of Americans. Plus Washington has been totally dysfunctional for some time now - both parties.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462

    Ya just made me wonder, berri, if there's not some buying off corruption going on in the upper echelon of the U.S. government

    Well, if you assume that the US and Germany have a lot in common, sure.

    "In 2013, Germany was reported to have gone “rogue” in attempts to sideline greener car regulations that would impact its huge car industry, threatening Ireland over its Euro bail-out, Hungary with car plant closures and the Netherlands with cuts in plant investment." (The Guardian)

  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,377
    Germans had a history of innovation even then. South Korea engaged in long legal joint ventures before starting on their own. Not exactly apples to apples, either industrially or politically.
    stever said:

    I remember my dad making fun of VWs and their "lawn mower" engines back in the 60s. Same story by other people about Korean cars. No reason to expect less from the Chinese automakers - the good ones will compete just fine.

  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,377
    edited September 2015
    Geely has a copycar history, including the faux RR Phantom and a faux MB W203, and other big names like Chery, JAC, and BYD also do it without shame.

    CEVT sounds like a simple way to absorb IP rather than steal it. Doesn't sound like a lot of sharing, being based where the bought out entity was/is located. Who is gaining what?

    Everything of any complexity these days has a Chinese part, largely due to free/unfair trade. Not all of these parts are capable of crippling a system even if they fail. A handful of parts aren't terribly relevant. Most of these parts are just fine, just like the computers we all use to post here. But, we have no real choice, and computers and cars are different animals.






    Yes, some Chinese automakers have blatantly ripped off other manufacturers. IMHO, those are never going to become world class manufacturers

    As for Geely and Volvo sharing engineering, I give you CEVT - China Euro Vehicle Technology SA - a Goteburg based company whose sole focus has been to design the CMA architecture to underpin the new B and C segment Volvos and Geelys. CMA will be used for a Geely crossover to come out in 2016 and for the new Volvo 40 series due in 2018.

    The words "full of" were mine and a poor choice. I should have said that your E contains Chinese made parts and AFAIK, it's not having an effect on it's quality nor reliability
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,377
    Of course it does. Uncle Sam helps in that area, too.

    <

    Especially with Uncle Sam around to help - the Korean government helps the Korean carmakers out, too. Right?

  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 8,863
    fintail said:

    CEVT sounds like a simple way to absorb IP rather than steal it. Doesn't sound like a lot of sharing, being based where the bought out entity was/is located. Who is gaining what?

    They both are gaining something out of it. Geely gets the expertise on high quality platform development and Volvo gets a platform they never would have been able to develop on their own. It's nothing really different than what Ford got from Volvo. Is it really any different than Daimler partnering with Renault for development of an MB pickup? Daimler gets Nissan's BOF expertise - could they be absorbing it as well?

    Keep in mind, I'm no apologist for Chinese companies. But you can't paint every single one with the same brush.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,377
    Volvo is getting funds to stay afloat when it wasn't profitable alone, and Ford couldn't make a go of it. If they had been more in the black, they could develop that platform - it's more about affording than ability, IMO. Geely gets not just the IP, but the tenured brand.

    The Daimler-Nissan (Renault) mismash is already being seen with Infiniti. Renissan helps Daimler get into some commercial vehicles it hadn't made before (MB in aller Welt), MB helps Infiniti make some more appealing cars. Either could likely afford to do either on their own, but this is cheaper, more profits to be inhaled by already overpaid execs if the products actually succeed. Neither MB or Renissan bought one another for the badge and access to IP to compensate for lacking it initially.

    Not seeing a credible-through-western-eyes automotive attempt from our most favored "partner" just yet. However, I am not magnetically drawn to cheap things, and Chinese trade isn't a key to my salary, so I may have a different view than others here.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,377
    The corruption is already at home in the good old US of A. Our hilarious investor visa guidelines go to huge lengths to reward that overseas corruption and unethical/illegal behavior.
    berri said:

    Yeah, let's reward China's behavior and corruption by letting their cars in the US on favorable import terms. Frankly, I think we need to reassess all of these trade agreements because by and large they seem to be lopsided against the US. It's not just tariffs, but all of the rules, behavior and bureaucracy these countries throw at American company products to impede their distribution and sale - And in general, Asian countries seem to be the worst in this area.

  • berriberri Posts: 9,750
    edited October 2015
    I think Ford made a mistake going with the Volvo chassis. Five Hundred, Taurus and Freestyle were all cramped and poor sellers. The Five Hundred had good back seat legroom, but at the expense of a cramped driver's position. Unless you were going to use it as a taxi, didn't make sense to me. Ford has spent a fair amount of money improving the Explorer and the Volvo chassis, but for many it is still kind of odd inside, particularly the seating position. They do sell a lot of them, but quite a few seem to be fleet like police and municipal vehicles. I'm pretty sure when they redo the Explorer the Volvo chassis will disappear and it looks like the Taurus may be toast soon. But then the whole premier group concept was stupid from the start and wasted a ton of money. Ford didn't really get consumer prestige out of it. Rather it seemed to weaken the image of many of the vehicle lines they bought. Asia should thank them for the fire sale prices they got buying Volvo and Jaguar thanks to the Jacques Nasser debacle.
  • berriberri Posts: 9,750
    I dunno Fin, I'm not defending some of the crooks in the US, but I think China could teach them more than a few new tricks ;)
  • guido65guido65 Posts: 25
    The media does not represent the difference between "made" and "assembled" very well when saying a certain manufacturer "makes" so and so vehicle here in the U.S. Dig deeper and its more like assembled, parts come from overseas, tooling to build the vehicle comes from overseas, support of the plant comes from overseas. Americans just snap it together.
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