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Lincoln MKS



  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    You don't have a clue how many Ford needs to sell to break even (and neither do I).

    Right now there is NO cash rebate on the MKS - only employee pricing plus 0% for 36 months with normal interest for 48 months and longer. That's a little over $1600 in incentives from Ford not counting 0% which most people can't take anyway. It doesn't matter to Ford how much the dealer discounts the vehicle off MSRP.

    And if those aren't the right vehicles to compare, please post the ones that should be used and their November sales.
  • The Ford family isn't stupid. Would you invest in a losing prop? Let the taxpayers do it. If Ford survives thats frosting on the cake. If it liquidates, only the taxpayers and employees suffer. Right now Ford and GM are just about penney stocks.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    If they found a way to mount the engine longitunally on these vehicles why couldn't Ford?

    Because it requires a totally different front clip design and different transmission/transaxle setup. The D3 platform was already setup for AWD and could easily be modified to handle 340 hp. If they were going to the trouble of changing the engine orientation they might as well just make a new RWD platform.

    Why doesn't Lincoln have the same sophisticated awd system as Acura or for that matter Audi? And It doesn't matter if the MKS is a larger car. It's not that hard to modify a system for other use. Why not have a full time awd option?

    Ford's AWD system is not the same as the Volvo system. Ford's system can transfer up to 100% of the torque to the rear wheels by computer based on throttle and steering inputs BEFORE any slip occurs. This is a big advantage over the Volvo Haldex system especially in performance driving. I'm not saying it's better than Audi's system - quattro is pretty sophisticated - but it's no slouch either.

    And the MKS does have a full time AWD system - it operates all the time. If you're talking about being able to lock the torque split front and rear then that's 4WD and you don't need that on a luxury sedan.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    What does this car do that is better than others in its price range? What will make me purchase this vehicle over a Audi or DTS. The DTS has less torque steer. Has a engine with more horse power and the DTS is slightly more expensive than this car and still has higher sales. Is available with all of the equipment except for Nsync that is touted as standard on the MKS.

    Does the DTS have 340 hp? AWD? Keyless start? Securicode keyless entry? Manumatic shifting? The DTS has less than 300 hp and gets 15/23. The Ecoboost MKS will have at least 340 hp with AWD and get better FE than the NA 3.7L model which is already best in class at 17/24. And the MKS has to handle better.

    And you do know that a lot of the DTS sales are fleet - right?
  • vic10vic10 Posts: 188
    Are we sure we're talking apples vs apples? 340 hp standard? AWD standard? Keyless start standard? Etc. Don't believe so. With those items, you might be comparing the MKS to the DTS Performance. Granted, not yet 340hp. But coming from a 300C with 345hp, I can tell you my new DTS Performance Northstar revs quicker and is more responsive above 60 mph than the Hemi was, even lacking the 50 hp and the 5-speed tranny. And as for handling, I don't believe Ford has anything to match the magnetic ride control that's in the DTS Performance. One BIG negative for the MKS in my opinion is the Microsoft system. Being an owner of a computer with Microsoft's Vista operating system I most definitely would NOT want that level of unreliability in a car doing 70mph down the highway.

    I find it hard to believe that many people who are trying to decide between the Lincoln and the Caddy are going to be comparing individual features. A lot is image. And a lot is style. I've always considered the Lincoln a luxury car. But I've always wanted a Cadillac. The MKS looks great from the front, ho-hum from the back, and like about 5 other (cheaper) cars from the side. The interior looks to be the size of a STS (and there's a car you probably wouldn't want to put the MKS up against feature for feature) which is to say confining. And though at first glance the MKS interior looks great, on closer examination it doesn't look quite as lux, though it is an interesting contrast: 2009 exterior, 1970 interior. I think the car was a nice first effort. But personally I'm a bit disappointed in the overall package.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    I didn't see the reference to "standard on the MKS" - my mistake.

    As for Sync - it's not Vista and it doesn't control the car. I hate Microsoft as much as you do, but if there was no sticker and nobody told you then you wouldn't know it was MS. It works great outside of some early USB hardware problems and phone incompatibilities (neither of which was the software's fault).
  • You do if trying to produce a variant to be a sport sedan or performance sedan based on a fwd platform. AWD or fulltime all wheel drive is just a matter of terms. Right now the system doesn't offer any type of enhancements that would actually push the car through twisting curbs. It's is more designed to keep the car from slipping because of road conditions. And the awd system is biased towards the front wheels hence the need for an 4wd option.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    Ford's AWD system will send power to the rear BEFORE slip occurs in order to provide better performance and reduce the possibility of slip occuring. It uses steering angle and throttle inputs - e.g. if you're going into a curve and accelerating it will send power to the rear. This does help handling even in dry conditions. Ford's system can electronically send 100%of the power to the rear wheels. This is NOT just an anti-slip system.
  • It still uses a Haldex torque conveter. Audi also uses a Haldex on its transverse mounted engine vehicles for the awd option on these models. But on its premiere sedans with its permanent awd system option it it uses a Torsen differential. The torque bias is 40/ 60 with 40 % of the torque to the front wheels and 60% to the rear. Also, these models have an electronic differential lock to break the engine as well as to limit individual wheel slip. Its not possible to use a Torsen differential on a transverse mounted engine. Lincoln doesn't offer this type of performance option because of its basic Volvo platform design.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    I understand that it's not the same as Audi's quattro system. But it does transfer torque before slip is detected to enhance performance which is more than the standard Volvo Haldex system did. And it can electronically transfer 100% of the torque when needed.

    The AWD A6 is a lot more expensive than an AWD MKS, even though it's smaller.

    Again - Ford is getting the most out of the platform they had. They've already updated the front clip to handle more torque, redone the rear suspension which also made it to the flex and updated the AWD system. It's just not cost effective to do anything else when they need a GRWD platform anyway.
  • I am not implying that this is a bad awd system. But I believe that it is not as modern as say the xwd system that is used on SAAB. I believe that that system was partly engineered by Haldex and is licensed only for use by SAAB. But that doesn't mean that Ford couldn't develop a system that is similar. Ford could keep the vehicles base price below 40 K. But offer the system as a sport package with the 340 hp engine. Many of the options on this car are part of packages. The most expensive is around 5500 dollars. Have a sport package with better bucket seats that offer more support , give it a little more of a firmer suspension, offer exterior and interior colors limited to the sport package, maybe even give it ground effects modified to fit the car's style. If Lincoln is to survive its going to have to figure a way to draw the younger crowd. This would be a start since Lincoln doesn't offer a sporty rwd car. I know Lincoln had the LS that was suppose to draw in the affluent young. For a while it did . But Ford never did anything to the car to keep it relevant. It allowed The CTS to steal the thunder.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    Shouldn't you wait and see what the Ecoboost version has? It may come with a firmer suspension and seats with more bolstering AND 75 more hp. Isn't that what you're asking for?
  • Now the MKS will have a parking assist option a-la Lexus along with electric steering for 2010. Instead of all of these gimmicks Ford could have used the money to produce a car that could compete with its rival in performance. I don't know how anyone could have driven a car without sync or parking assist. If a person can't park his car ,he shouldn't have a license to drive. Oops! That's the market segment that this jalopy is targeted at.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    That gimmick (and I don't disagree with that word) was dirt cheap because the hardware already existed - just required a little software. So no, the money could not have been spent elsewhere. And it's good PR.

    When the 340 hp version appears go drive it and then tell us what's wrong with it. Or do you only like to do paper comparisons?
  • The MKS doesn't handle as well as my S550 4matic. I have already driven the awd version of the MKS. The MKS park assist system was developed in Chicago. It required more than a software update. What about the sensors that are used to steer the car while parking? What about the servos that operate the electric steering? Nevertheless, the money used on this gimmick could have been better spent to produce an intelligent suspension system that adjust to speed and driver inputs.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    What about the sensors that are used to steer the car while parking? What about the servos that operate the electric steering?

    The sensors and electric steering are already there. All it required was additional software to use the sensors and operate the steering. And a button.

    The base price for a S550 4matic is $92K. Why would you expect a car costing half as much to be just as good?
  • Has anyone had this problem - I have the AWD version with 20" tires and when it snows, the car gets snow jammed in the front end to the point where the car rides so bad that you would think it is going to shake itself into oblivion. I have had the car for 3 weeks and this has already happened twice. It seems like there isn't enough clearance between the tires and the wheel wells?? Anyone seen this or has a comment. I wonder if 19" tires would help?

  • I've had my MKS (FWD and 19in tires) for 2 months and love it. No problem with snow here but we're only seen 1 or 2 inched of snow this winter. I have heard some small noises coming from the front end when breaking at a corner and hitting bumps. I'm also hearing slight brake squeal while stopping. Anyone else seeing these things. The LM dealership did a 3000 mile oil change and found no problems.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    I have heard some small noises coming from the front end when breaking at a corner and hitting bumps.

    A few 2008 Taurus owners have mentioned this and the fix is apparently to lube the strut bushings. Someone said their was a TSB on it but I can't confirm that. In any case, it would be a simple fix and it might be the same issue with your MKS. You could ask your dealer.

    As for snow build-up, I imagine the tire/wheel combination is the same or very similar overall diameter regardless of whether one has the 19 or 20 inch wheels.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815

    This is the one I have been waiting for. The Ecoboost engine will finally make the MKS something special - at least from my perspective. Based on some of the pics I have seen on various sites, they have addressed the cheap looking console/center stack, too. There are also some new colors for 2010.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    You may want to look at the 2010 Taurus as well. It is the same architecture as the MKS and will offer much the same amenities, including the Ecoboost. There is less separating these two vehicles now than ever. What it really comes down to is which styling do you prefer? I think the 2010 Taurus will stand out in a crowd a bit more, at least first. Except for some degree the grill, the MKS blends in with the crowd more. However, if Taurus sales pick up, it will soon enough lose that standout quality.
  • With new Taurus they basically made Mercury Sable a.k.a Lincoln MKS a much more expensive - smart move. But what about real Lincoln?
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    What real Lincoln? LS is dead. TC is basically dead (and should have been euthanized years ago in its present is like Lincoln's own Checker taxi). The MKX is an Edge with makeup. The MKZ would make a better Mercury than Lincoln. The MKT appears to be a Lincoln no one asked for. Maybe it will eventually replace the slow selling Navigator.

    The MKS can hold its own with FWD/AWD near-luxury sedans...but now it is not even truly an upgraded Ford (as the 2010 Taurus is so good), but rather a Ford with new Lincoln styling. The C concept at the Detroit show demonstrates some forward thinking, but I have no idea if something so innovative would ever get approval. Still can't believe how they took the MKT concept which (love it or hate it) looked like nothing else on the road and turned it into an innocuous station wagon, with the new Lincoln grill on the front. Sort of like how they messed up the MKX from taking it from concept to Edge-with-a-Lincoln-esque-grill.

    BTW, have you looked at the mileage of some of the 09 V8s? The 5.7 372 hp Dodge Challenger (a rather large and heavy car) already gets 16/25 mpg. Not too shabby, and again begs the question, what clear advantage really is there with a complicated twin turbo V6 over a normally aspirated, well-geared V8? Just asking...
  • And I forgot to mention important detail - there will be no RWD Lincolns. Both GM and Ford abandoned using australian RWD in USA. Caddy will still have one and may be Pontiac. If they leave Pontiac as a FWD - it is better to kill the brand. And rename Lincoln to Mercuries - finally.

    Whats the point with MKT - were not Mercuries supposed to be small premium cars? And MKT is nothing other than Ford Focus. Well for Audi it works - but Audi is an engineering company and it is the separate company in VAG.

    Thats my question to American CEOs - why you need several brands if cannot differentiate them? Toyota does, Nissan does, even VW does.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    MKT is a Focus? What planet are you living on? MKT is based on the Flex which is a 7 passenger vehicle with 3 rows of seating.

    The problem with american mfrs and brands is history - these brands were born decades ago when the automobile industry was totally different, and they have not adapted over the years. The imports were able to come in about 20 years ago and create new brands from scratch without the historical baggage or huge legacy dealer networks to support.

    Ford finally gets it but it will take years to straighten it out. They are quietly consolidating and buying out dealers.

    And just to clarify the RWD issue - Ford has put the GRWD program on hold and while we're all disappointed it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Ford's limited resources are better spent on smaller cars and improved fuel economy. What could be worse than for Ford to spend billions on new large RWD vehicles only to see gas prices go back up and sales dwindle again.

    It's not just that it's RWD - it's the cost of a new platform when they already have capable, if not exciting, FWD/AWD platforms.

    When Ford is in the black again and has the basics covered then they can afford to look at a new Lincoln platform. Sucks, but that's business.
  • There is always a customer for a premium rwd vehicle. These can afford the higher price of fuel. There are ways of producing a premium rwd platform that will be more fuel efficient .Two of the methods is to decrease weight by using new metal alloys and carbon graphite fibers. For engine tech direct injection with cylinder deactivation. The problem with Lincoln is is that this type of customer believes that Lincolns are basically Fords with a different body. In order to make this brand into a premium mark again Lincoln needs a rwd premium vehicle. But that also means that Lincoln has to convince this market segment that it is again a premium brand.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,001
    Of course there is a market, but it's a relatively small market (and shrinking). If Ford was making money then maybe they could afford to go after such a niche market. But they can't so they have to focus on their core vehicles.

    It's not just fuel economy - it's the cost of the investment versus the payoff. Ford simply has other areas that need the investment more at the moment. In 2 years hopefully that will be a different story.
  • Wife's sister just leased an MKS after trying the Infiniti M35, ES350, GS3XX?, CTS, S80 and such. She loves it. She let me drive it. I assume it has the luxury package or something as it had the backup camera, massive sunroof, THX, Nav and some other stuff life bluetooth. I have no idea what her lease payments are, sorry. She just replaced a leased BMW 5 series and while she has only had the Lincoln and week she seems to greatly prefer it tot he BMW.
    I took it out for a test drive, but not on the highway.
    1) Very quiet.
    2) Smooth ride (Even with 20" wheels, thought it would be tighter with those wheels). Not like a 80's Lincoln.
    3) Steering was responsive for me. Where ever I turned the wheel it went.
    4) Pretty huge interior which now that I am 40 I like.
    5) Good seats. Not the best I have sat in but pretty darn good. Firm. I didn't mess with her lumbar setting though. Nice quality leather.
    6) Over all I think the interior looks very sharp. Not award winning or innovative but presidential. There were some cheaper plastics like i have read in some reviews but the leather was top notch which I guess I value more.
    7) The car is bigger than I thought now having seen it in my driveway but unlike the outgoing Towncar I think I would be ok parking it. I believe it has front and rear sensors for parking assist but I did not test that feature.
    8) Didn't car for the massive grill. People who need a grill like that must be making up for some short-coming (yuk yuk yuk). In general don't like the exterior styling and still think the out going TownCar is one of the best looking cars on the road.
    9) I thought the stereo rocked it out but only mention it b.c the reviews said it was lacking and I do not agree. Personally, this is something I almost couldn't car less about.
    10) Pretty good turning radius for a large car. Again, I was surprised.
    11) The engine was OK. I left it in auto and did not manually shift. It could go if pressed but it wasn't a rocket off the line. It was responsive off the line. It is more than adequate for me and my sister-in-law said it was a great highway cruiser. As a side note she and her husband said this was the first time they drove from NY to DC and their backs didn't hurt (as they did in the BMW).
    12) Nicer over-all than the CPO 2005(6) LS430 I test drove in August that had 30000 miles on it. In fact, the MKS reminded me of the LS430 but felt just a little more solid. I would have to drive both back to back to say for sure, both were pretty fantastic.

    I was sad to see the TownCar whither on the vine as it has since Ford was just riding it out to the 'livery only' market but now I think differently. This is a fine replacement and if I could afford one I would buy it. If the numbers I see on these boards saying it could be leased for $485/mo are true I would definitely consider it.
  • I meant MKC or whatever little concept they introduced at Detroit autoshow. It is Ford Focus - plain and simple - like jaguar X-type was nothing more than Ford Mondeo. What is the strategy for Mercury? It looks like Ford change its strategy every quarter. Mercury was declared to be small-car premium brand to complement Lincoln - and now they propose to introduce Lincoln Focus? Whats going on?

    No market for RWD luxury cars? On what planet do you live? ALL luxury cars are RWD except of Audi which is unlike Lincoln is highly engineered, high content car with advanced AWD.

    Not enough resources? What did Ford when there were tons of money? Waisted on SUVs, British luxury brand that nobody wanted and wants and self-inflicted fiasco. Lack of money is not an explanation - it is lack of focus and lack of vision.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    It is NOT the Focus plain and simple. First, remember that the European Focus is already a superior car to most. The Concept C takes the Focus, widens it considerably, adds tons of Lincoln cues (suicide doors, the first real bench seats in years, stellar interior finish, full-size room, Lincoln styling), and does it with a footprint that may be too wide for Europe, but is very compact for the US. This is innovation, this is responding to the times, this is a car that could rival Mini (the only success out there right now in these dark times), and you call it simply another Focus?

    The MKS is another 2010 Taurus in different clothes. Same exact size, same basic engines, same options. The C is not just a is a small Lincoln like we have never seen. It is not a Versailles (thinly disguised Granada); it is akin to an Audi TT which is based on a VW Golf. It is innovative. I don't give it a snowball's chance of coming to market, but if it did, I'd buy it in a NY minute. I am so sick of excessively long overhangs to give the impression of a large car. I want the interior room on the smallest footprint I can have while still having some style. I'd buy a Mini if the interior weren't so tight.
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