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Lincoln MKS



  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Give me a Lincoln flagship something that is along the line of a Jaguar XJ 8. A vehicle that offers a beautiful interior and has the balance of performance between a BMW and a Mercedes. Compare the interior of the MKS with that of a Jaguar. The Jag is clearly the more desirable Otherwise I want something that is above what Lincoln offers now. Get back to rwd. That is where Lincoln belongs.

    I think the issue is Ford lacks a modern RWD platform. GM had European and Australian platforms to leverage for the CTS, G8, and GTO. Does Ford have a RWD other than the Mustang (which is live axle even)?

    I thought the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-Type, and T-Bird were all on the same platform. Did that get scrapped when Tata bought Jag?

    I just don't believe that a Taurus SHO that is based at 38,000 without options is going to be a great seller.

    Are you worried about only the SHO or the whole Taurus line in general? Does it base with the 3.5 from the Edge and then get an EcoBoost after that? I thought Mulally said it wasn't going to cost more than the current Taurus.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    I think the issue is Ford lacks a modern RWD platform. GM had European and Australian platforms to leverage for the CTS, G8, and GTO. Does Ford have a RWD other than the Mustang (which is live axle even)?

    That's exactly the problem. The Mustang platform isn't suitable for several reasons. They have RWD V8 sedans in Australia but they don't want to just import those (GM tried that unsuccessfully). What Mulally has in mind is a new global platform that can be used for both the NA and Aussie market. It was already underway but was stopped when the economy tanked and fuel prices rose. They had to divert funding to getting the Fiesta and other smaller Euro cars here sooner. Once that's done they'll go back to global RWD.

    I thought the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-Type, and T-Bird were all on the same platform. Did that get scrapped when Tata bought Jag?

    They were. The LS and T-bird were cancelled years ago. That platform was too expensive and could not use the cheaper corporate V8. When they decided not to sell it in Europe the business case was dead. Jag upgraded the DEW98 platform which is used now in the XF. Ford wants a new global RWD platform (NA and Australia) and dew98 doesn't fit the bill even if they still owned Jaguar.
  • russ68russ68 Posts: 2
    Hi! I'm a potential buyer of a MKS or Navigator with hybrid Technology. I'm 40yr in age and you know what? I really don't care where the foam comes from or if it is real or not. I am very interested in a quite cabin #1, Good sturdy design and finishes that will last. Evan if I decide to keep the care 20 years (garaged of course) #2. I really think Lincoln MKZ 40 mpg and Mercury Milan 42 mpg are doing a great job. I wish they would just introduce the hybrid technology on there SUV's along with the ecoboost on models that appeal to those of us that like space and it's pleasures. I won't even look at a vehicle if I ride in the back of it and can't hear someone in the front due to road noise. In this day and age that is not realistic in a 40k + vehicle. I have a friend which was given a MKZ by her daughter and son-in-law. I did ride in the back of it and was very disappointed at the amount of road noise in the back seat. To me if you are going to spend as much as what a house cost on a vehicles the creators need to pay particular attention to detail and road noise isn't cutting it.
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,703
    alman: "about the depreciation discussion which someone said he could buy a year old Ecoboost MKS for $20k, I highly doubt it."...I was one of those who made this comment, and, I think nvbanker (forgive me if I am wrong) agreed with me in the next few posts...if not nvbanker, then someone else...

    While I do not have exact numbers, I would still guess that Big 3 cars will depreciate like rocks...if someone buys an MKS ecoboost for $40K, rest assured that if they trade it in next year, they will be lucky to get over $20K 2 years, the used miodel will sell for $ as optimistic as you want, American cars do not, have not, and will not hold value, with very few exceptions...

    alirby says that Ford no longer has the stigma of a few years doubt they are getting better, but to say that their rep of the last few years has been completely removed is, IMO, not true at all...I also agree with speculator that a Ford at $38K may be difficult to sell...just like VW could not sell a Phaeton, Ford may have trouble with a passenger car, same name as an inexpensive sedan of 1985-2005, selling for over $40K after sales tax, ext warranty, and other goodies added on by the dealer...

    Maybe the rep of Ford has changed as far as rotten vehicles, but to think that Ford can approach $40K with an ordinary passenger car, well, I think Ford will be quite surprised when folks say they love the car, but will only spend $10K less than the asking price of the Taurus...

    Some car brands simply have reputations that have lasted too many years to change...Ford (and Chevrolet) are mainline US brands not known for expensive cars...when they ask $40K for an ordinary passenger vehicle, I think they are heading into dangerous territory...the reviews may be nice, but folks are not going to drop $40K on a Chevy or least not in great numbers that they hope...those cars are, simply, too expensive, esp when they WILL drop like rocks after one year out...a 2010 Taurus or MKS at $35-40K new, will be well under $25K, almost new (used) in 2011...

    I could be wrong, but I won't be off by much, maybe a thousand or two...Ford and Chevy do not have any cachet, and even the names Caddy and Lincoln are struggling, IMO...

    At $35-40K, Ford is making Honda look better by the day...
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    But in a 43k loaded Taurus sho and in a 50 k Lincoln. I think I would want better material for these prices than synthetic suede or wood scraps. A 365 hp car that weighs approx 3700-4000 lbs is not environmentally friendly. I would think that the reason for really using synthetic material for suede seats and wood cast offs for panel trim is cost and not because Ford really is environmentally concerned. If it is ,it's only concerned to a point;and that point is is that it is more cost saving using recycled materials over original materials. The car speaks for itself. I don't care about the Polar Bears either. I like large cars with engines that develop a ton of ponies.
    Excuse me, but aren't you being at least slightly ridiculous here? No one puts real suede in a modern car. It doesn't wear well and doesn't stand up. The Audi A8 and other luxury cars have used ultrasuede materials or Alcantara for years.You may not care about polar bears and that is your choice. But Ford is going where there is a market, and green, fake or real, is in. Besides, making recycled materials look and feel quality is neither easy nor cheap to do.
  • alman08alman08 Posts: 282
    well, IF one can buy a brand new loaded MKS with Ecoboost for under $40k, that will be good for me too. And lately, I have my eyes on the MKX also, so if MKS with Ecoboost can go for under 40k, hehehehe... MKX for under $30k? :blush:
  • speculatorspeculator Posts: 116
    The Taurus Limited with awd is based at around 33 thousand. The car could lose about 2 to 3k off list. The Limited has just about every option that is available on the Taurus SE and SEL as standard though. So what one is basically buying is a fully loaded Taurus SE. Just have a base model and then let the customer pick and choose from an option list of individual items the way he wants his car to be equipped. Now everthing has to come in a package. Just another way to drive up the price of a vehicle above and beyond what a customer may actually need in a vehicle. The 2010 MKS has just about everything that was offered as an option in 09 as standard now. I read on these post that people are asking why the price of the car has risen about 5000 thousand dollars. That's the reason. I agree with what you have written about the Chrysler rear wheel drive models. I also share your view that the Mercedes chassis is a superior chassis as compared to a Volvo chassis. Ford may have the perfect solution to solving its lack of an rwd chassis. Purchase the rwd Chrysler/ Mercedes rwd platform from Chrysler. It's a pretty good platform that Ford may be able to purchased for pennies on the dollar. It certainly could be used to fill in a gap for awhile.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    Just have a base model and then let the customer pick and choose from an option list of individual items the way he wants his car to be equipped. Now everthing has to come in a package. Just another way to drive up the price of a vehicle above and beyond what a customer may actually need in a vehicle.

    Gee - that's what Ford used to do and the dealers were complaining that it was too cumbersome and that they needed more packages and less individual options. That makes it easier to order for stock.

    You sure don't sound like someone who owns a dealership.
  • esfoadesfoad Posts: 210
    I agree with akirby but also, the foreign car companies have proven that if the packages have the right "mix" of options there is no need to offer those individually. Makes for less vehicles on the dealer lot and less chance to have to order a vehicle the way you want it. Hey, nothing's perfect.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    The F150 had something like a million different option combinations a few years ago. It's great if you want to special order but it makes it tough on the dealers to figure out what to stock.

    You can question some of the option packaging or standard items but I don't think they can afford to do a la carte options any more.
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,703
    I believe one of the things that did drive up costs was the ability to order any possible combination of options, where some car nut calculated that there were over 10 million (???) possible vehicles that could be made...instead they need to do what the imports do, make 3 or 4 levels of cars, and those are the option packages available...when Honda makes Accord Ex's, they make a bunch, with and without leather...then LX's and so do have option availability, but really quite limited compared to what GM and Ford used to offer, part of what may have accelerated them into the current situation...
  • speculatorspeculator Posts: 116
    Lincoln is not going back to rear wheel drive. Ford cancelled the new global rwd platform design for the replacement of the Aussie Falcon. Instead it will use the North American Taurus platform when it introduces the replacement for the present Falcon after 2013. Where can I find the info that Lincoln is going back to rwd? Really I would like to know. The Taurus SHO is not a optional performance package. Insurance companies are classifying it as a new model. That's the info that I get from my connections with Ford. The real reason for offering option packages on vehicles is because of corporate greed. It has nothing to do with what is good for the consumer but what is good for the company. I take it that you are in the car business. Hasn't a client ever complained to you about having to purchase a whole lot of other items that he has no use for but yet in order to get the item he does want he has to buy 4 or 5 other items in a package that could cost 2 or 3 thousand dollars. Ford and the other manufacturers only need to have a base car for each model and the only items needed as standard are ac, power windows ,power door locks power trunk lid realease ,rear window defogger and stereo. If the customer wants something else let him pick and choose from an option list. See in the old days that's the way business was done. Now there is a Taurus SE, SEL and Limited. The only difference is is that the higher the price the car is the more standard equipment is added. This only drives up the price. while the consumer is left with either take it all or it's nothing. The idea is to make a car more affordable. Easier for a family to purchase.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Fusion S - AC, power pkg
    Fusion SE - AC, power pkg, stereo, wheels opt:SYNC/sun
    Fusion SEL - Leather + SE + blind spot, nav optional
    Fusion Sport - big engine, slushbox

    Accord DX or VP or whatever they call the base now - AC, power pkg
    Accord LX-P - alloy wheels, 6 speaker stereo
    Accord EX - 6-cd changer, sunroof
    Accord EX-L - Accord EX w/leather, nav optional.

    Hmm seems pretty similar to me.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    You don't know what Lincoln is going to do in 2 or 3 years and just because global RWD is on hold now doesn't mean it won't be restarted. I think it depends on how well Ford is doing financially and what happens with gas prices. They'll need a new platform for the mustang soon and it would seem silly to make a new platform that only the Mustang could use.

    What I mean by the SHO being a trim level is that if you don't want the SHO package then you can get the same vehicle in SE, SEL or Limited trims. Calling it a different model is just marketing BS.

    As for trim levels and options - the SE IS the base model. If you want more options you get the SEL, then the Limited. Are there people who want to get the SE model but with only one or two options instead of the SEL? Of course! There always will be. But for every one of those people who don't buy a Ford for that reason there are hundreds more who will step up to the SEL model to get that option and Ford makes more money.

    And that doesn't even consider the dealer's viewpoint. I can't believe you own a dealership and think everything should be optional. Not everyone is willing to wait and custom order a vehicle, especially when the Honda and Toyota dealer down the street has one of every color and option package sitting on the lot ready to roll.

    Either you don't own a dealership or you haven't set foot in it for a long time. Why don't you go ask your sales manager whether he wants the current packages or a la carte options on a base vehicle and tell us what he says.

    I think you're stuck in the 70's. It's a different world now.
  • ameliapameliap Posts: 3
    I have been trying for 2 months to order and purchase a new 2010 MKS. I can't get a Lincoln dealer to return my calls or emails. I have talked to 4 in and out of my state. I either get told that you can't order them yet, which I know isn't true, or if I question their price quote, they won't call me back, or they try to send me onto a different vehicle or they keep sending an email saying "didnt you get my earlier email" which is they didn't send me an earlier email or I would've responded. You would think these guys would want a sell. Is there a Lincoln dealer out there willing to sell a 2010 MKS with the Ecoboost engine?
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,703
    Not to rain on your parade, but is it possible that they HAVE been emailing you and it was placed in your Spam or Trash folder???...just a thought, no intent to insult...
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Gee, if Subaru used recycled plastic for seats and wood chip scrap from furniture manufactures, they would be HAILED for their environmental conscience instead of lambasted for being cheap.....

    Ford can't win, no matter what they do.

    I have suede seats in my Mountaineer, and they hold up like iron. I'm thrilled with them, and also don't care if my wood in my Lexus comes from the Brazilian Rainforest or from North Carolina...... It's pretty, it holds up, and I like it.
  • esfoadesfoad Posts: 210
    This country has a penchant for kicking those that are down. The US automakers are seeing this full force right now. It's hard to break the cycle. I hope they can do so before it's too late because they are finally making decent product and yet they are getting picked on for the little things we would look the other way on for "trusted" manufacturers. Remember that Toyota started making cheap cars but learned (really well) and are now in that trusted group. Same for Honda. So let's back off and give these guys a chance.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 8,018
    True, but for once Ford is rising above the others and being hailed for their accomplishments. Even the comments on other websites are mostly positive for a change. The new models, product quality, best in class fuel mileage and lack of government assistance have changed a lot of people's opinions of Ford. Now they need to keep it up and build on it. The new Fiesta, Transit Connect and Euro Focus should help even more.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    Amazing. I contacted 3 Minneapolis dealers when I was ready. One had kept in touch since last summer and had given me a copy of the order guide. I emailed the exact specs/codes that I wanted to the 3 dealers and asked for their best price. One emailed me and asked me to come in to talk price. The other two sent me a breakdown of MSRP and dealer invoice and gave me the price quote. The one that had kept in touch since last summer and gave me the order guide earned my business. I have not heard anything from the other two since the initial email responses.

    Marsha might be right about your spam filter. Also, I always email a person - not just a general email address. I emailed the Internet Manager and cc'ed the GM.
  • ameliapameliap Posts: 3
    No, I checked my spam/junk mail (i don't delete it, just moved to a separate file) and nothing.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    Several members of the press have driven the MKS Ecoboost. Some even took the cars to Milan Dragway and the results are on you-tube.

    Some of the times posted seem almost too good to be true. It would do Ford no good to give the press a "ringer" but 13.9 in the quarter at 111 MPH seems pretty incredible for a 4400 pound car with 355 HP. Given the weight, frontal area, and the 2.77 gearing, I expected 0-60 in the low sixes and quarter mile times in the mid-high 14s and the upper 90s for speed at the end of a quarter. It will be interesting to see if the production versions are as quick as the pre-production models driven by the press.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    I might just be writing this post to activity for nearly two weeks!

    Lots has been written about the initial impressions of the twin-turbo MKS - most of it being extremely encouraging and positive. I have been a bit surprised with all the talk about suspension changes. The Lincoln Order Guide makes no mention of this. Ford press releases mention the sway bars being slightly larger in the twin-turbo models but there has been no talk of "sport tuned suspension" or the like. The press, OTOH, has talked about much sportier handling due to stiffer springs, struts, bushings, etc.

    While you can't undo poor weight distribution, a relatively mundane suspension and high center of gravity, Ford typically is good at tweaking and improving handling - IE: the Mustang. I just hope they haven't gone overboard in the firmness to the point of making the MKS ride too stiffly. There are some who think the base car is too firm. I think it is about right but I wouldn't want it much firmer.

    Anyone have any real inside information on the difference in the suspension tuning of the base vs. Ecoboost models?
  • datagendatagen Posts: 107
    Your curiosity on the suspension raises a question. Why would a 3.5 (supposing to be smaller/lighter engine) need a special suspension for it? Is the suspension a lighter yet stiffer version of its predecessor to complement the power of the engine? Or to fight it with such stiffness that you will feel like you are driving a huge corvette. I guess I am kinda surprised with Ford approach here. While you do have a point about the weight distribution I do not ever recall Ford mentioning the special suspension as a package with the engine during the Ecoboost promotion in the past couple of years.

    So if this was all planned then was the weight distribution situation on purpose? With all the technology/testing at their disposal, It is hard for me to believe that the weight distribution was an error.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    The 3.5 and 3.7 are really the same weight but the turbos and associated plumbing, etc. actually make the 3.5 Twin-turbo a bit heavier. Ford lists the weight of the Ecoboost MKS at over 4400 pounds according to their website.

    If the suspension tuning is different on the Ecoboost model, it is likely in an effort to improve handling. The assumption, I suppose, is that anyone who wants a car that goes like a scalded monkey will also want it to handle better than the average mid-luxury sedan. I just hope they didn't make the ride too stiff to suit me.

    The order guide lists "functional differences" between the 2009 and 2010 models and also lists the differences between the ecoboost model and the base car. They make no mention whatsoever of suspension differences or "sports" suspension or anything of the kind. The Taurus order guide, by contrast, makes a major point of the sports suspension package in the SHO compared to the base Taurus.

    I guess I will see how the ride is when mine comes in.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    Yes, I guess you will see how the ride is when you pick up your car. It is remarkable that some people will pay that much money for a car they have never driven--and especially one which is such a huge compromise in styling and execution for what used to be a brand to which to aspire. Most people will see the SHO as better looking and a better deal than the MKS.

    But some people have to buy Lincoln, or it will go away. Enjoy your car. Me, I will wait for a Lincoln that people really notice when I drive by. The MKS is not it (it could be a model from any number of near-luxury nameplates...except it is a bit too tall, and the wheelbase is too short for the size of the car). Am hoping the MKT will come off better in the least the wheelbase is a bit more proportional to the size, though not by much.

    It still amazes me that Ford can draw such large cars that look smaller and shorter than they are. Why? What is the point of that?
  • ak103ak103 Posts: 11
    Since when is he buying a car he's never driven? He drove the standard MKS and before paying for the Ecoboost when it comes in, he'll test drive it and decide from there. Just because you order a car, doesn't mean you have to take it. All you're doing is filling out a buyer's order when you order a car, that's not a binding contract. Technically, you're also entitled to your deposit back. Dealers are generally not allowed to keep deposits for cars, no services have been rendered. And its not a wacky color combination, ordering a black MKS let's say with a Camel interior is not exactly what I would consider problem inventory.

    And to the look of the car, that's personal preference. I happen to think the MKS is one of the best looking sedans in its relative segment at the moment. And honestly, there aren't too many sedans you can buy today that people really notice when you drive by. Especially if you live in the tri-state area and the like where high end vehicles are rather common.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 815
    Me, I will wait for a Lincoln that people really notice when I drive by.

    That is a big difference between you and me. I don't have the need to be noticed.

    I have no sympathy for people who take a short test drive, buy the car because it is pretty, and then complain about something that they should have noticed before purchase. Gregg, I am not suggesting you would do that but we all know some people do.

    I doubt that very many people have done as much research on the MKS as I have. I have driven a number of 2009 MKSs. I had one for a weekend to evaluate. I have read about everything that has been written about them. The only thing that kept me from owning one was the knowledge that the twin-turbo was coming.

    As has been pointed out, I am not obligated to take the car that I ordered. The order simply assures me that I will have the option of buying the car equipped exactly as I want. I have seen nothing, so far, that would stop me from accepting the car after an extensive examination and test drive of the particular car I ordered. In fact, based on the early reviews by the press, I am more excited than ever.
  • I think the car is already noticeable, particularly the front end. From the rear it would be more noticeable if they can fix the taillights and give it more of the horizontal “Lincoln look”. Hopefully a style refresh will do that.

    OTH, I also think Gregg is right in that the car does look smaller than it is. There’s something about the rear quarter view / C pillar treatment that just makes the car look stubby. The Lexus G series has the same thing going for it.
  • datagendatagen Posts: 107
    Agreed, on the front. The back could use a change, but some whom I have talked with on this subject have told me that even though they wish the lights were more horizontal, the current looks makes it distinctive from other vehicle, especially when the vehicle has its turn signals on to make a turn. The chrome bands on the roof seem to compliment that distinctiveness as well from a rear view.
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