Lincoln MKS
I open this forum up for the Lincoln MKS "concept", just released by Ford at NAIAS 2006.
The full size luxury sport sedan Active All Wheel Drive featuring a 315HP 4.4L DOHC V8 based on the D3 architecture. This vehicle supposedly replaced the LS, and one of 2 sedans for Lincoln to debut in the next 2 years.
The full size luxury sport sedan Active All Wheel Drive featuring a 315HP 4.4L DOHC V8 based on the D3 architecture. This vehicle supposedly replaced the LS, and one of 2 sedans for Lincoln to debut in the next 2 years.
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Nice wheels though.
The hype with the introduction says, “People want refinement, rather than ostentation. Lincoln MKS is a luxury car that doesn’t need to shout – it captivates with a whisper.” You might as well say, "we wanted to play it safe and conservative, because we really aren't inspired yet." I think that's fine for Toyotas and Lexuses, which sell more on quality than style.
Lincoln needs to grab some attention. A little ostentation on a well-screwed together car would help a lot.
The current CTS can perform with the Lincoln, but fell short on interior quality and its polarizing exterior kept many away.
The MKS is going to be a larger car (on the outside anyway) than the LS. 194 inches to 203 inches may not seem like a lot to suburban types. In the city where I live those extra 9 inches may as well be a mile.
Plus, the dynamics of the D3 platform will be AWD with rear wheel bias, not pure RWD. The CTS will be RWD with possible AWD option.
If the GM can make the new CTS exterior more broadly acceptable without losing its character and follow through on interior quality, some LS fans may start looking at its US competitor over the MKS.
I will say that I really like the interior, front view and the wheels on the MKS prototype.
That is what I cannot figure out.
The Zephyr is definitely not in the same league the LS plays in. The MKS seems too big and heavy to truly carry the mantle.
Is Ford surrendering this part of the market, or does it have something new up its sleeve?
Ford repositioned the LS above the Zephyr, so if you wish to call the Zephyr the direct competitor to CTS, it actually is in segment and price. Although it's different markets/demographics which each is targeting. So you may do with that information as you wish.
The MKS in ideology is really the replacement to the LS, BUT it's mission is a bit different, and placed above the Zephyr in segment and pricing.
The MKS will very much be a great handler, don't let the AWD or exterior size fool you. And the even larger sedan, has yet to be released...
So when will we see the longer version? I have a feeling it will be called the MKC. Tag line: "Just because we call it the "Continental" doesn't mean you can't drive it all over the world." :shades: ANT14, you think Lincoln could use that in a commercial? Probably sounds to much like a Lexus commercial
I like the name. A page from ANT14's script style
Buddy: What car is that?
Me: It's a Mark S
Buddy: Lincoln is it?
Me: Yep
Buddy: I use to have a Mark VII. Boy that thing could get up and go.
Me: I guess it is like what Ford did with the T-Bird. A new take on old legend.
Things are changing at Lincoln, that is for sure. The MKS concept is interesting enough to keep me waiting to see how it works out.
Originally wrote: you may have a pretty good point. Meant to edit as you make some pretty good points. Oh well
Chassis tuning will be a critical component in whether the MKS finds a home in my garage. I hope they don't go all-out hard-edged "sport" sedan with this - yet certainly not blue-hair soft either. I have always thought the ride/handling balance of the non-sport LS was perfect for the potholed streets and expansion joint filled freeways here in Minneapolis. Will we be looking at standard (fairly compliant) and optional "sport" suspension versions of the MKS?
Also, they will need to pay attention to road and wind noise isolation. How about Lexus levels of quiet yet with just enough induction and exhaust rumble under acceleration to make it interesting?
Lastly, I really hope they sweat some of the details. If I open the hood and am greeted by a prop-rod, I will be tempted to jerk out the rod and beat someone with it.
Too funny
Customer doesn't want all those goodies can fall back on the Mercury Montego or 500.
And the interior will be much quieter than that of the LS. Which in turn, some of the interior materials will require re-thinking, since some resonate sounds, more than others. It's amazing how something as the materials, can contribute to overall noise.
ANT, I haven't seen the weight listed anywhere. With the 4.4, can we expect 0-60 times in the high 5/low 6 range? By the way, based on your description, the driving dynamics sound very appealing.
Don't forget - no prop-rods.
"What's Edmunds' Take?
Although inoffensive, the MKS just isn't pretty or interesting enough to bring Lincoln back from the dead. Or Oldsmobile for that matter. — Ed Hellwig"
That is what I was afraid of...other people seeing what I see...too safe, too derivative, in a market that is exploding with innovation and high tech quality. Again, let me say, the MKS is far better than anything Lincoln offers now (the last LS perhaps an exception). But by the time it is introduced, it will be even more yesterday's news. It's sad that a division that produced the original Zephyr, the Marks I, II, III, VII and VIII, the 1960s Lincoln Continentals, etc., can only give us proposals for safe and contemporary stuff. Let the designers loose, for godsake!
Lincoln had a concept a few years back that picked up the early 60's Continental theme and I loved it. Then Chrysler comes to market with a similar slab-sided, high beltline, wide "C" pillar 300 and has a hit on their hands. Now the "ring" is out of the bell so it would be difficult for Lincoln to pick up their own heritage cues - Chrysler has already done it! (I think Lincoln could have done it more tastefully, though.)
Having said all that, I am just glad to see Lincoln doing something! Since 1999, after the LS was introduced, Lincoln division has seemingly been brain-dead. The MKS shows that there is a glimmer of life left. I think the rear end view needs some tweaking but, overall, I am encouraged.
My 2 cents: It does borrow from some existing designs, but what doesn't? (except for the CTS) That said, I'm not a fan of the shapes of the new Lexus LS/GS cars and this Lincoln does seem to have some of that. I do love the front end though, it says Lincoln, not Acura or anything else. Don't know where folks get that. But the rear end has got to go. It's practically identical to the last Olds Aurora, which was a big step DOWN in my book from the original Aurora. This car would do better to emulate the original's full-width tail lights than the obscure design they've got there now. Of course full-width lights probably add $8.00 to the cost of the car so that'll kill them.
Lastly, what's the deal with showing us this concept in Jan of 2006 when unless I'm totally misinformed, the actual car is to be released later this year? I mean, there's no time to change anything on the actual vehicle is there? And if the real vehicle is pretty well locked in and this concept 'hints' at it and if history repeats, the real car will be dumbed down by the bean counters and will suffer in comparison to this concept so all Lincoln will have done is whet our appetites for caviar and then serve up a filet o' fish. IMHO of course.
(Case in point - the Zephyr concept had a beautifully clean and appealing tail treatment. The real Zephyr rear end looks fat and cheap in comparison.)
I think it is too STOOPID for words, or TLAs that they're doing this. Dumb. No reason for it. Lincoln marketing is clueless. I swear to all that's right with the world, I despise marketers (being an engineer) and yet I have no doubt that I could do a far better job marketing Lincoln than anyone currently in that position.
I hope I've made myself clear.
First off, there's a picture identified as the "Emm Kay Exx" or Aviator and it does not look like the one recently seen on the LS board. I mean specifically the front end has horizontal chrome grillework - similar to the Fusion yet what I've seen for the mkx was egg crate. Oh well, they're both ugly. The Auto-Ex guy hated it.
Then there's some pictures of the Emm Kay Ess and the tail treatment looks different yet from what I saw at ANTs link. Not quite so Aurora-ish, but still not good. The Auto-Ex guy hated the Mark S too.
Finally, he resurrected pictures of the Continental concept Lincoln showed in 2002 and I totally agree with him that it's 100% better than the emm kay ess. Maybe 200% better. I encourage anyone interested to go the auto extremeist site and check out the pix of the continental concept. Then we should all email Lincoln and ask just what the he** they are doing.
ANT can clear this up but my understanding was that the Mark S concept should reach production in 2007 as a 2008 model. If so, there would be time to tweak it a bit. Unfortunately, production versions seldom are an improvement over concepts. Your example of the Zephyr makes that point very well.
As I said earlier, that 2002 Continental concept was awesome and would have been distinctly Lincoln. A huge opportunity was missed there.
As for the names, I agree with you, but after driving a great car with no name (the LS) for 6 years, I guess I will just have to accept the hodgepodge of letters and if anyone asks what I drive, say "a Lincoln."
Well, I think AE looked at a couple of mine as well...
Seriously, while I could easily see myself driving a six speed manual LS V8, the MKS leaves me cold. Derivative styling with sizzle emphasized over steak; I predict that it will end up being known as the DOA.
First, as an enthusiast who is pretty hard-headed Ford loyal, I agree with most of the criticisms already noted. My preference would have been a rear drive platform, (stretched Mustang platform but with IRS) a real name, (Continental) more original styling, (2002 concept) and a Ford engine. (4.6 DOHC with VVT)
However, I am also looking at the Mark S from a serious buyer's standpoint. I will likely OWN one of these unless something changes for the worse. I like the Volvo DNA. I hear very good things about the Yamaha engine, even though I cringe a little at the thought. While not too original, I like the looks better than about anything else in its class. Ford interiors keep getting better. With the transverse engine, this thing will have a ton of room in it compared to the LS - probably similar to a Ford 500. Since the platform will be pretty high volume, the cost should be very competitive.
Am I crazy to want one of these to replace my LS V8? Anyone else think they would buy one based on what you have seen?
Both the Five Hundred and Mark S give the impression of being shorter cars than they really are. They are big cars, so why shouldn't they look more their actual size? I recall when the 1996 Taurus was introduced. Even though it was significantly longer than the previous one, it looked smaller until you parked it next to something else. (That it was just plain weird didn't help either!)
I think this is at least in part why some of us don't see the MKS as pretty, even though the styling is not bad. While other manufacturers are cutting the front overhang down (and even Lincoln did so with the LS), Lincoln is going for more overhang. In some respects, it is proportioned like the new Passat, which also seems too lengthy for its wheelbase, and gives the same chunky (rather than sleek) impression.
To their credit, Ford has given these cars impressive leg room, given the shorter wheelbase. They went for rear leg room and trunk space. However, the Five Huncred is also very wide--but that does not translate into interior width. Shoulder and hip room is more comparable with an intermediate, not full-size car. I hope the Mark S will carve out more interior width too, but we will see...
As for the S80, it will be on my short list but I am thinking it will be $10,000 more than the Mark S. I don't want to spend that kind of bucks. I am also thinking of a low-mileage pre-owned XJ8. Oh well, I only have 102,000 miles on my LS and it still looks and runs like new. I have some time to ponder.....
Well said, Bruce. That's the car they should build. The way things are going, soon they won't have anything with an American V8 in it except big trucks and the Mustang. Shame.
WOuld I buy the Emm Kay Ess to replace my 5speed getrag '01 LS? I would probably consider it. The rear end styling would be off-putting for sure. Price would be a big consideration and I doubt this car will be affordable enough. My LS stickered at 37,500 in 2001 with all options except heated seats. I expect this car would be at least $5K more than that. My situation has changed too in many ways, not the least being my employer gave me an unwanted Christmas bonus this year - an empty box to put my sh_t in and permission to go home early the day before Christmas. So I won't be buying any luxo cars anytime soon. In fact, will almost certainly have to sell my Navigator. :>(
That said, I was really shocked yesterday when AE posted the pix of the 02 Conti concept. I had forgotten about it and when I saw it again I remembered how much I had liked it. And I still do. For me, it almost ruins the MKS in comparison. The MK CC looks like a Lincoln from all angles. The MKS looks Lincoln from the front and that's it. Looks like a lot of other cars from the other angles. AE is so right in questioning why Lincoln is not pursuing it's DNA with the MK CC. And the 'other' car to come later (ANT, I thought this one was going to be an '07, the other an '08 - so it's really '08 and '09 - that's a LONG time to wait for a serious Lincoln flagship. Did they fire ALL the engineers?) is going to look more like the 500/Montego twins unless a miracle occurs. So that's the future of Lincoln? Oh well, All things must pass. - GH
George - why would you expect this car to be more expensive than the LS? The D3 platform will have 2 Lincolns, 2 or more Volvos and 3 Ford/Mercurys in addition to being a cheaper platform to start with. Not sure about the yamaha V8 but it can't be much more expensive than the 3.9L AJ based V8. I still think base price will start in the mid 30's if for no other reason than that's what the market will dictate. If they're smart they'll start it low (even if there's not a lot of profit at that price) and raise it slowly over time after it becomes popular.
Well, I just priced (here on Edmunds) the MKS' stablemate, the Volvo S80. Equipped with options like my '01 LS and with the addition of AWD (I don't want FWD) this car has a TMV over $43,000. And that's with a 208HP 5cyl engine. Add $$$s for a V8 and a tranny to take the extra torque and it's even mo money.
So, is the Lincoln *really* gonna be $10K cheaper than the S80 as someone said? If true, then the Zephyr is history as it'll be only about $2K cheaper than the MKS.
Lincoln has had several concepts in the past 3 years that borrowed from classic Continental lines. Even the Aviator concept did. You'd think in three years they could have gotten one to market--RWD (using a modified TC platform) or FWD. There is no reason the D3 couldn't have been given such cues, rather than the going with the innocuous/unidentifiable 2008 Mark S.
The Zephyr starts at $30,000. They could have started it lower, both to kickstart sales and improve residuals, but they didn't. Maybe they will learn a lesson?
The scary part is all the time they have already had to learn lessons. The Continental concept is going on 4 years old. It is not like they did not have some creative ideas that could have been real cars (with justifiably higher price tags) by now.
And one day before AE's comment I posted the following in the LS topic:
"In my opinion, Lincoln's problem is due to a total lack of focus. The suits want to appeal to a younger, more affluent demographic one minute and the next they want to hang on to ball cap Paw Paw and his Town Car operating(you can't really call them drivers) pals. Look at Lincoln's advertising campaigns; just try and find a coherent theme. Travel Well? Reach Higher? What's next, Geeze Gracefully? Putter Proficiently?
I loved my father's Mark VII LSC. It had looks and performance unlike any other Lincoln since-save the LS. Now it appears that Lincoln's mission statement is to tart up Mazda and Volvo platforms in order to duke it out the bottom rung Acuras and Lexus. A marque with Lincoln's proud history deserves far, far better."
As for pricing, I was speculating that the 2007 S80 V8 would be around $50K MSRP. Assuming that Volvo is somewhat upmarket from Lincoln, and Lincoln doesn't want to go there, I threw out the "$10K cheaper" for the Mark S. That could be wishful thinking on my part, but if that is somewhat close, there is still room for the Zephyr at around $30.
They're selling every Zephyr they can produce right now, so why do you think they need a kickstart?
Look at the LS and Stype. They used the same platforms but the Stype was $10K higher than the LS (at least). So I can definitely see the new sedan coming in below $40K. Remember Volvos are imported whereas the Mark S (the correct pronunciation) will be made here.
Doesn't matter since Zephyr is an afterthought of Fusion production, making the number they can build limited. And the residual value, man. Lincoln needs a vehicle where the depreciation isn't so steep. You think Zephyr has any chance to outsell the CTS?
But that is off the subject, which is the Mark--and how it indicates Lincoln's lack of direction. I fell in love with Lincolns when I was a kid. I'd like to buy one, but the last one where I truly liked (both performance and styling) was the Mark VII LSC. I drove the LS and liked it, but thought (like a lot of people apparently) that the look was too vanilla.
Adopting a Lexus-Infinity genre (MKS) should help sales somewhat, but it won't turn Lincoln around. People used to notice a Lincoln. That's what I'd like to see again.
I guess Lincoln got enough positive responses to say "lets tweak it a little and send it into production".
I never really looked at the Aurora but I personally like how the Mark S looks. I agree with most that the Conti Concept from a few years back would have been sweet. However this Marks S looks like a blend of Acura, Lexus and the backend looks a little like Volvo IMO. I happen to like all three kinds. I came very close to buying the Lexus GS in '99. Found the LS instead and loved every minute of that car.
Laxman
'00 LS owner
Possible future Mark S owner
Interior is absolutely stunning... If they get that interior and front end right, maybe tweak the rear end a little bit, they got a winner. Ofcourse, that doesnt mean I will buy it since it may be out of my budget :mad: . If someone can stick that interior in a lesser priced model, boy I will be the first lined up to buy one.
The dash is awesome. Whoever designed it needs to get a pat on his back (or her back :P ) That interior is a master piece and they shouldnt change that one bit (including that suede thingy)
It will be interesting to see what the other D3 sedan will look like. I am not sure how locked in it's look is at this point, but I wonder if it might take more cues from Lincolns of the past. It seems that designers within Ford thought the 2002 concept was "too retro." Yet, most of the press on that concept seemed very positive.
Interesting times at Lincoln......
http://tinyurl.com/7gwws
The bottom line, though, is how many BUYERS feel the same way. Frankly, if styling was the only thing to get me into the showroom, I wouldn't have bought the LS, either. I found it attractive, but hardly a grand slam in the looks department. Of course, Lincoln needs to attract more buyers than just those who bought an LS.
If the driving dynamics are as good as ANT says and the luxury and mechanical content of the concept is on the production version, I think many buyers will warm to the stying - assuming the price is in the $35-$40K range.
For Lincoln's sake I hope the Mark S is not too little, too late.
The following link, while several years old, reviews the Continental concept as well as other Lincoln offerings of which Gerry McGovern was the design director if I'm not mistaken.
http://tinyurl.com/8loeg