Subaru Outback vs. Toyota 4Runner

badburro

I am looking at getting a used 2005 Subaru Outback XT Limited or a 2005 Toyota 4Runner Limited. I spend most of my time in the burbs, but do get out to go skiing and camping/backpacking. I currently own a 1994 Jeep Grand Cherokee.

I can rationalize for either the Subie (better gas mileage) or the 4Runner (bigger cargo to hold my Irish Setter and Lab).

What are the pros and cons of each one?

Thanks.

stever

Maybe changing the discussion title will help generate some interest in here. I like my Outback for trips to the local ski hill. I don't know if it's really roomy enough for a big Lab. When friends come to visit with their Lab, our minivan is barely big enough to tote him around.

Steve, Host

green

They're really in a different class. The 4Runner is a truck based SUV with a 2-spd transfer case capable of intense, low-speed off-roading. It's solid rear axle makes it give up some rear cargo room to car based SUVs like Toyota Highlander or Honda Pilot. If cargo space is a major consideration, Highlander or Pilot, while perhaps looking a little smaller than a 4Runner on the outside, have more cargo space. 4Runners are great, but it sounds like you may be considering it for less than ideal reasons.

ateixeira

This thread just appeared on my radar now, even though the question was asked a while ago.

The Outback's cargo bay is not that tall, so a lab may not be able to stand up.

The Forester's cargo area is actually taller, so check that out. I've carried two dogs, a lab and a lab/great dane mix, but that was with the rear seat folded, and both dogs sitting down. Danes are very tall, you might need a van if you want them to stand.

4Runner has a pretty high cargo floor, so make sure the dogs can jump up that high, and get in and out easily.

-juice

nippononly

is fairly athletic, and he has a bit of trouble sometimes with getting in and out of the rear hatch of my 4Runner. It is pretty high.

Unless you are an offroader, someone who tows, or the vehicle will spend half the time off the pavement getting beaten up a little at a time on dirt roads, I would go for the Outback. The 4Runner is overkill unless you meet one of those conditions.

Plus in the turbo Outback you get a little better fuel economy and way better handling (and it goes without saying, MUCH more power and speediness, especially noticeable on the highway) in the Outback. Oh yeah, and in the Outback, your passengers don't have to climb up into the vehicle (something not everyone is fond of, and some people have a very hard time with!).

Now of course you get a higher seating position in the Runner, which some people like, and a certain sense of rugged indestructibility, which it has earned over the years. And very good resale, if that matters.

Bottom line: unless you intend to do things in the Runner that the Outback is really not capable of at all (rock crawling, towing, mud-stomping, running crappy forest service roads 50 miles at a stretch), the Subaru will serve you better.

sullyak

I've owned both cars. I have traveled with 2 medium sized labs in both and the outback was fine for space. If you don't need the truck aspects of the 4-runner, I think that the subaru is a better choice due to fuel economy, drive comfort and price.

jeffer3

Wow, these were exactly the 2 vehicles I was considering. While some people seem puzzled as to how these 2 get the top spots when you consider my criteria it becomes more clear.
What I wanted was a vehicle that had decent 4 or AWD. At least 30 cu ft of cargo space, and a decent roof rack. While there are other vehicles that fit those requirements many of them had one issue or another. Volvo and Audi - too expensive. The other so called SUV crossovers I didn't really care for, and most of them had sub-par AWD. Outback and Pilot had decent AWD and of course 4Runner is the best you can get. I scratched the Pilot more due to looks. So I was left with the Outback and the 4Runner.
All things considered the OB was about 2k less when comparing the Limited package to a 4runner Sport. I also did extensive calculations on expected mileage and fuel cost per year. I figured I'd save about $300 - $400 /yr on fuel with the OB. Total 4 year savings about $4,000. That's what I thought anyway.
So this past February I sprung for a shiny new OB. I can't tell you how disappointed I've been. You see, everything about the OB is small. I did take it for a long test drive in the pouring rain. It handled quite well actually but I think the rain caused me to be less cognizant of other issues. First, I take a size 10.5 shoe. My left foot has no place to rest comfortably. The dead pedal on the left is only 2/3 the size of my shoe. My foot usually ends up twisting in some weird way. The odd thing is a friend of mine has a 2001 OB w/ MANUAL shift and there is plenty of room in that car for my left foot. Subaru took a step backwards on this.
Next up - trunk is not really that big. Cabin room is not very roomy. Sun glass compartment is smaller than glasses.
Now overall it's not really a bad vehicle and could be OK for some people. But the REAL kicker is - BAD gas mileage. Seriously - I'm only getting about 18mpg's - if that. If you read the sticker on the car closely you will see BIG numbers 22 - 28 city/hwy. But read the fine print next to it. It says 18 - 23 city, and 26 - 33 hwy. Now my tendancy has always been to drive on the fast side but I've cooled it down and I still barely get the lower side of those estimates. In my previous vehicle, a 2000 Maxima 6 cyl 222hp, I often drove fast and hard, and it would do it too, and I averaged around 20 - 22 mpgs. Better than my 4cyl OB gets even when I baby the thing. I had fun driving the Maxima I can tell you.
So if you have little feet, and don't carry a lot of cargo - go for the OB. But if want to have plenty of room and want real 4WD then I'd get the 4Runner - I wish I had. You will only benefit from the gas mileage if you drive for long highway trips. I did get 25 mpgs on one highway trip in the OB, but another only 21 mpg due to cargo and kayak wind resistance. From what I've read the 4Runner will get close enough to what I'm getting in the OB, and that's comparing a a 4cyl to a 6cyl.
tx
Jeffer3

ateixeira

Your mileage is well below the typical OB buyer's. Most average around 22-24 mpg with that powertrain.

Just know that YMMV, and it does.

-juice

ccarofknowldge

Which Engine do you have in the Outback?

nickel

Only 3 weeks ago I was on the same road that jeffer3. I pretty much had 3 options, after discharting leather and costly goods, prices approx.: OB 2.5i ($21.6K), OB XT ($27.5K), 4runner SR5 ($27K). As you see, the differences start at more than $5k. Then, that week, gas went over $3. Knowing from other family members that the 4Runner gives you less than 17 mpg, I realized I'm talking about maybe $600/year, on 4 years that's like $8,000 between price and gas. And the more costly options have higher insurance, maybe $300 more in the XT. Decided on the cheaper 2.5i.

In Minnesota I drive mixed, and I've got 23 mpg. Of course I miss the power of the XT, and the "indestructibility" of the 4R off road, but about 35% of cost is something I prefer. Anyway, my OB can take me to where the hiking starts, or to family cabin.

nedzel

Mine is a 2003 V8 LTD 4WD. I take mine offroad when fishing on the beach and hunting.

It handles pretty well, for a truck. It stops pretty well, for a truck. It rides pretty well, for a truck. But you will never mistake it for anything other than a body-on-frame, solid-rear axle truck.

It is not something that encourages sporty driving. The heavy solid rear axle has a lot of inertia and you can feel it move around on bumpy roads. The crummy pavement on the highways around Boston often set up a bit of a fore-aft pogoing motion. It's very well controlled for a solid-rear axle. But it is not an independent suspension and you realize it if the pavement isn't smooth.

My 4Runner has a fair bit of wind and tire noise. The truck is also significantly affected by the wind -- you do get pushed around by gusts and the bow waves from semi-trailer trucks. The steering has very little effort, is highly geared (low number of turns lock-to-lock), and has poor on-center feel. The result is that the truck is busy on the highway -- you have to make a lot of small corrections to keep it centered in the lane. In contrast, my wife's MB C240 is much less tiring to drive on the highway. Driving the 4Runner on the highway isn't like herding cats, but it certainly is restful trying to keep it centered in the lane.

In my normal commute (5 miles of clogged suburban roads and 10 miles of highway), I'm getting around 17 mpg. On the highway, if I drive at 65 mph or less and use the cruise control, I might get 19 mpg. If you are heavy on the gas, I'm sure you could get it down to 15 mpg in the city.

Parking the 4Runner can be an adventure. It's a pretty tall vehicle and you can't see the corners of the front fenders. When backing up towards a parked car (e.g., when parallel parking), you lose sight of the front of the car behind you and have to guess where it is (unless you spring for the nav system and rear camera).

The upside of all this is that the truck is excellent offroad. I put dedicated snow tires on it in the winter and it has incredible traction. In the winter, I regularly drive out an unplowed road to the shooting range. To do so, I have climbed over a 3' high snow bank at the edge of the paved road (dragging the undercarriage and running boards on the compacted snow bank) and then driven through 18 inches of fresh snow. The truck never struggled at all doing this; it just went up, over, and through.

The 4Runner has an excellent offroad system. But that comes at a significant cost in mileage, comfort, and driveability. This is a big, heavy (4500 lbs) truck. If you don't need the offroad capability, you might be better served with something else.

ateixeira

That's a refreshingly honest review. Thanks.

-juice

mystro

I hoped you looked at the Tribeca,hands down better AWD and 5 Star..plus it doesn't look like a Lexus.

paisan

" It's solid rear axle makes it give up some rear cargo room to car based SUVs like Toyota Highlander or Honda Pilot. If cargo space is a major consideration, Highlander or Pilot, while perhaps looking a little smaller than a 4Runner on the outside, have more cargo space. 4Runners are great, but it sounds like you may be considering it for less than ideal reasons."

No offense but SOLID axles give MORE room than independent rear axles. Independent rear axles require more space for the Upper/Lower control arms and the inboard pumpkin giving those vehicles with them a higher rear load floor than a solid rear axle.

-mike

ateixeira

Not sure I agree, mike.

With indy you give up some space on the shock towers, perhaps, but the pumpkin tends to be smaller plus it's in a fixed location.

On a solid axle, you have to leave room for the (usually bigger) pumpkin to move up and down, so you have to leave clearance for that suspension travel.

Obviously, some package it much better than others, but if you compare an Expedition to a Tahoe, the indy Ford does it much better. There is a lot more room in the footwell in the Ford. In the GM, the floor is a lot higher and there's no room for your feet so you sit with your knees in your chest in the 3rd row.

Again, each manufacturer varies, but I compared those because they're so common.

The Armada's very spacious. Nissan seemed to do a good job with packaging.

-juice

paisan

But, I think the floor is still significantly higher on the Indy trucks (the Armada included) than the non-indy. I even read that as well. Those control arms take up a lot of space and need to move, wheras on a solid rear axle there is only the springs that need to move up and down. I guess if it's a "small" vehicle the indy might have more room, but anything that has substancive rear control arms will need space.

One of the things that bugs me about my armada is the high load floor due to the indy suspension. But it's got so much room to begin with it's not really an issue.

-mike

rsholland

Not sure that I agree with that Mike. I bet your rear load floor is about the same height off the ground as the new Tahoe and Suburban, which don't have fold into-the-floor rear seats or IRS.

Everything I've read suggests that IRS allows for better packaging which allows for fold-into-the-floor rear seating without raising the floor.

Also, look at the rear floor of the new solid-axle Jeep Commander. They had to "raise" the cargo floor in order to have fold into-the-floor rear seats.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/.ee931ea

http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/122

Bob

paisan

Hmm Maybe you are right, although it doesn't make sense that the IRS would take up less space than SRS.

-mike

rsholland

Well, here's my take. With IRS you can bolt the rear differential directly to the frame. By doing so you don't have to allow for vertical travel room of the differential or driveshaft, as you would with a solid rear axle.

Just by doing that allows for engineers to package items differently. That in turn may open up more space for relocating (or re-designing) other items such as the fuel tank, exhaust, etc.

Now I may not be 100% accurate with specifics here, but I think you see my point. The fact of the matter is that all the SUVs and crossovers with IRS seem to have more 3rd-row seating room than those with solid rear axle setups. Now, having said that the Dodge Durango/Chrysler Aspen (not Jeep!) SUVs do pretty well with rear seating and legroom space, with a fold-into-the-floor rear seat, despite having a solid rear axle. If Dodge and Chrysler can do it, I don't understand why GM couldn't do it?

I sat in the rear of a new Tahoe yesterday, and because the rear floor (for my feet) was so high my knees were close to my chin. I doubt that's the case with your Armada. The Armada's rear footwell is lower because there is no room needed for vertical travel of the driveshaft, therefore the footwell can be deeper. That in turn benefits the 3rd-row passengers.

Bob

paisan

on the Armada is actually usable by full size paisan adults (2 of em) for up to 1-1.5hr trips.

I'm not sure if that's because the roof is so high or the floor is low though.

-mike

fxoffroad

This thread is old, but its exactly what I'm thinking right now... whether to get the new 4Runner or the new Outback 3.6R. I currently have a leased 08 Outback - that has performed well - been taken places it probably shouldn't have gone - while not instilling a sense of confidence in me.

Before I saw the '10 4 Runner... I was undecided about several "possibilities"... including the Inifiniti FX, Lexus RX, Highlander, Land Cruiser or Sequoia. All of these but the Land Cruiser scream "chick" vehicle to me. And the Land Cruiser and Sequoia are spending and too much vehicle (and won't fit in my garage).

So I found myself left w/ the Outback... sure the outside is "interesting"... but the inside - while VERY roomy looks and feels cheap. I think my 08 Outback has better interior quality than the '10.

Enter the redesigned 4Runner - and for about 2K more - I could have a cool looking, taking it anywhere vehicle. About 95% sold on it. The gas mileage is City rated just under the Outback 3.6R (6cyl). But in every other regard the 4 Runner just seems better.

Thoughts? Other considerations?

agnosto

I was researching for over two months to get an 2010 Outback 3.6R Limited with NAV, but I have decided to get tomorrow a 2010 4Runner full time 4WD Limited with NAV (5th generation), which although it is $8,200 more expensive, I do not have a second thought ... yes, the new 2010 4Runner (5th generation) it is that good looking and no doubt about reliability to last for over 200,000 miles...

fxoffroad

Thanks for the reply.

I'm just trying to justify the extra 6K for navigation in the 4Runner. The more I think about it, the less interested I am in the Outback 3.6R Limited w/ Nav.

Did you lease/buy? How much did you pay under sticker? If you leased what kind of $$$.

Thanks.

agnosto

I never lease... I will buy it with a trade in and plan to keep it for many years to come... see details below (not including my trade in so that there is no confusion):

2010 4Runner Limited 4WD V6

MSRP: $42,314.00
Invoice: $39,397.00 (about $2,917.00 below MSRP)

Options Installed: NAV, Carpet Mats

FYI, I was going for the SR5, but I found out, only the Limited grade has the Full-time 4WD with Active Traction Control (A-TRAC) and locking center differential which is what is used for the Land Cruiser. The SR5 and the Trail grade do not have center differential.

I wish you best of luck and remember the government tax credit on new vehicles ends 12/31/09.

fxoffroad

Thanks for the info and for the luck. Unfortunately we're flying out today for the holiday... I'll internet shop the 4Runner when we return, I have zero tolerance for haggling w/ sales people.

Still uncertain about the LTD vs the SR5 w/ leather - its all about the navigation for us. We average about 7,000 miles a year on the second vehicle, which the 4Runner will be. But would be great to have when we go up to the high-country here in Colorado.

Also, thanks for clarifying the ATRAC and differential.

ateixeira

That's a tough call because I really like both. I think the update Toyota did was fantastic, as the outgoing model didn't do much for me.

Question is, is it overkill for your needs? Maybe not given the way you drive it. My guess is your ownership costs will be about 20% more (gas, up front cost, plus slightly higher depreciation).

ALG gives the Outback 4 stars, the 4Runner 3 stars:

https://www.alg.com/deprratings.aspx

That matters if you lease it short term, like you did your 08 Outback. Just something to consider. Will you lease, or buy? How long will you keep it?

It could be worth the extra cost, though. Do you tow?

I'd pick the Outback for the comfy ride on road, but I'd pick the 4Runner if you think you'll do a lot of off roading or towing and really need that capability.

Best of luck with whatever you go with. :shades:

ateixeira

I have zero tolerance for haggling w/ sales people

Just noticed that part.

Fitzmall.com is a no-haggle dealer in the Mid-Atlantic, and they have both a Subaru and a Toyota store. That makes it easy for you to comparison shop prices.

If you do happen to be in this region, you can also get no-haggle quotes for a Toyota from 355Toyota.com (a DARCARS franchise) and Toyota CarMax in Laurel.

I got 3 price quotes for my Sienna that way and never left my desk. Bought the cheapest one (DARCARS) and when I asked for them to include taxes and give me an out-the-door price, the price was accurate down to the penny.

fxoffroad

Thanks for the additional info.

I thought the ALG link was interesting - and great information. That explains some things that I questioned before. The lease payments on our 08 Outback LTD are very low, so it was good to gain some perspective.

I don't think the 4Runner is overkill for us... actually I think its the perfect match for our needs... small enough for city driving, but capable off-road in the Colorado back country (which we do 2-4x a month to escape the city). Plus the ability to tow jet skis. I've taken the Outback places it probably should have never gone and while under-powered, it managed to never let me down... but the '10s seem a lot cheaper inside - even w/ the leather interior.

Thanks for the dealer info. I will contact them... I'd be happy to fly back East, if it meant a good lease deal.

Thanks again!

rsholland

My guess, judging by what you say, I think a 4x4 4Runner would be a better choice, as it is more off-road capable than an Outback.

Bob

ateixeira

I think so, too.

We own a 2009 Forester and a 2007 Sienna. Both companies make great vehicles.

Best of luck shopping around.

alohaboy

I'm surprised by the number of people that are trying to decide on the same vehicles that I am.
I'm driving an '06 Outback Sport. I was going to try to wait until the end of 2011 to get my new car, but I've got the bug, so I think I'm looking at the end of this year.
We're having our first baby in May and I plan on taking yearly road trips to the mountains for hiking/camping. I'd pretty much decided on the new Outback until I saw the new 4Runner at the car show. I don't plan on doing "serious" off-roading, rock crawling, or towing, but I love the looks of it and how much room it has. I'm just curious if the 4Runner will be too much room. I don't think we'd ever fill it up, but I like that we have it just in case.
By the way, I really like the new Outback and think it might be just enough room, but it's hard to anticipate how much stuff we'll have with a kid.
Any suggestions?

agnosto

Trust me and gooo for the beast, 2010 4Runner it, you will not regret it... also as an FYI, you can not compare the 4Runner with the Outback (did almost the same mistake when trying to decide between the two... nooooo comparison) and now I am the owner of the 2010 4Runner Limited 4WD with NAV and it has been a joy driving it over 3k miles so far with my best gas tank of 27.1 MPG... what more can I say, what an amazing vehicle :shades:

alohaboy

Yeah, I'm kind of thinking that if I buy the Outback, the first time we take a road trip I'll regret not having all of that room.
I will certainly miss the fun of driving the Outback. I like being able to drive like normal even when it's raining.

ateixeira

I'll go with the opposite suggestion - the Outback is more car-like and comfortable, and probably better suited for a young child. I can't imagine you're going to go rock-crawling any time soon.

I really like the new 4Runner, but why pay more for capability you won't use? You get mud on it and the wife is gonna think you've lost your mind.

The Outback has plenty of space for 1 kid (2, even) and the ride will pamper the kid to a peaceful sleep.

Get the 4Runner when he's a 10-12 years old and would want to go do a little off roading with you. :shades:

When they're young, they want comfort.

When they're older, they'll want image/adventure.

alohaboy

Thanks for the suggestion. I've been a little concerned about the height of the 4Runner, as far as putting my daughter in the seat for the next 2 years (especially my wife who is 5'1"), and then her getting in for the next 3 on her own. I'd be getting rock rails, but I imagine it'd still be difficult.
And no, I really have no intention of doing rock crawling. Going off-road in mud and dirt is one thing, I imagine rock crawling is another.

ateixeira

Well, you climb up in to a 4Runner, down in to a normal car.

The Outback is nice - you basically step right in, no up or down. It's very user-friendly.

The new ones have tons of back seat room (the previous one was cozy).

alohaboy

Yep, that's what I noticed about the Outback at the car show last weekend. I kept expecting a lower step in, like my Outback Sport, but the step in was just kind of right there.
My wife and I took a 2 week trip out to California in the OB Sport, and had plenty of room, but we also folded both seats down. BUT, there is a 10 cu. ft. increase in cargo capacity between my OB Sport and the 2010 Outback.
I wonder if the Subaru dealer will let put a bunch of things in the back to try out the size of the cargo area. You know, just stuff we'd take on a western/mountain road trip.

ateixeira

Actually, I'm sure they will, and that is a very good idea. Do it. Bring your stroller, if you have that already.

There's a lot more cargo room, but also a much roomier rear seat.

We have a Sienna (149 cubic feet) and a Forester (half a size smaller than the Outback) and each is great in its own way. I'd love to combine qualities from each of them. :shades:

alohaboy

Yep, got the stroller, so I figure I'll bring that, our 2 big suitcases, a couple of bags, backpack and a cooler. Of course they might very well think I'm nuts, but I imagine they'd like to make sale eventually. :P

ateixeira

They're gonna think you're living out of your current car, and plan to "move in" to the new one.

illinoiscentra

Ha ha, we have a Sienna and a Forester too, and I'm considering Outback, 4Runner, Pilot, or Highlander as replacements for the Forester. Can't remember why I didn't like the RAV4. Maybe it was that if you wanted heated mirrors you had to get either the Sport with run flats or a Limited with leather.

Whats nice about the Outback is that you can get a car with heated CLOTH seats, heated mirrors, no sunroof, all wheel drive, decent room in the back seat for $25k. My biggest whines about it are the mirrors don't fold, no vent for the rear seats, donut spare, and that the CVT system has not been around for a while.

The 2002 has heated cloth seats, heated folding mirrors, no sunroof, AWD with viscous coupling limited slip differential, and a full size spare. Why can't I get all of that in a bigger vehicle and toss in some vents in the rear. Spare me the Venza, can't stand the center console and 25" rims (OK not that big).

Biggest whines about the 4Runner is the painted plastic surround bumpers (they will get scratched), only Limited has the nice AWD system, and the price. That and its a new generation. I've been lusting after the Trail Edition just for its looks.

I'll save you (all) the Highlander and Pilot whines since you aren't considering them.

Just to keep in mind, one kid can become two, two kids can become three. You would be surprised how the space is gobbled up going on a vacation with three kids; I think alohaboy should consider a minivan.

By the way, a Toyota dealership in Hilo has a 2010 4R Trail Edition in blue, only one to be found on the cars.com website.

alohaboy

So can anyone tell me the difference between the fabric, sport fabric and water resistant fabric seats on the 4Runner? I'm planning on going with a dark interior as my current OB Sport has the light interior and every little thing spot drives me nuts. I think the water resistant stuff is only on the Trail, but I'm curious as to whether the Sport would be a little more stain resistant than the normal fabric. Of course all of these little things I think of increase the price, but if they keep recalling things I might be able to get a better deal.
I kid, I kid.

ateixeira

The RAV4's rear door also swings opens the wrong way - blocking curb side loading. That pushed me to a Highlander (no split fold 3rd row) and then finally a Sienna (no such trade-offs, acres of space).

The Forester Premium has heated cloth seats, too, and a traditional automatic if you prefer that. The CVT has had good feedback so far, and particularly good fuel mileage.

As for donuts - do what I did. My wife had a 2002 Legacy with a donut, I replaced it with a full size spare and ditched the foam insert that goes above the spare. Make sure it will fit before you do that, though.

I like the new 4Runner's style, blocky and masculine. I could do without all the blisters in the light clusters, but I still like it a lot overall. For me the gas mileage is the deal-killer. I'm a cheapskate.

alohaboy

The gas mileage doesn't bother me too much. My drive to work is only 15 minutes so I'm not going to get that great of gas mileage no matter what I buy. Besides, I was going to get the 3.6R and not be that conservative with my driving.
I thought about the Highlander, but it doesn't seem as rugged as the 4Runner. I don't plan on getting the 3rd row seat, as the one in my mom's Pilot was pretty darn small, and the one in her new Infiniti looks even smaller. I don't know when I'd ever use the 3rd seat, so I'd rather not pay for it.

ateixeira

Plus why haul the extra weight around?

alohaboy

Exactly. I've got plenty of that already.

ateixeira