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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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It's even better than that; the "victim" is in debt up to his eyeballs and has a history of attempting to pull off insurance scams. Oh yeah, he also hosts an "adult swingers" web site. Read all about it.
Disclaimer: I am not a Toyota fan. The last Toyota that I lusted after was the 1st. Generation MR2. My personal definition of Hell would be a sentence to drive any modern Toyota or Lexus product for all eternity.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
That's a great definition of Hell, maybe that should be placed in Websters dictionary. I never thought of it that way but I have to agree, that would cover it. The only other recent car I have driven, that felt like it might qualify for that award, would be the last generation of Taurus. Similar feeling, just metal with a steering wheel to point it in the right direction. I am sure there are more cars that would qualify, but I haven't driven them.
I read the article about the runaway Prius and that is pretty funny. He was afrain to try and shift the car into nutral "in case it might turn over" but somehow he can wedge his head under the dash and try to pull up the gas pedal. lol
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I know that runaway Prius stunt was a scam as soon as I heard about it and I said so. Unfortunatly, the damage has been done.
They should persue this and if it's true about the guy staging that event, he should be punished.
I knew this would bring people out from under rocks and I honestly don't believe the majority of these "events" ever happened.
Just my strong feelings I suppose I could be wrong?
No, absoultly a Smart ! That's the one!
All but the Genesis sedan or coupe.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
In my opinion, this one is so blatant that it will draw attention to the facts that (a) there are a lot of copy cats looking to cash in and (b) virtually all instances of unintended acceleration are caused by driver error. Toyota's rate of UI does not differ significantly from other car companies.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper.
The trouble is, the media loves these doomsday stories and a lot of people will watch and wring their hands in horrors. Others will get a gleem in their eye as thy try to figure out a way to benefit from a companies misery.
What makes it stressful? What is different from any other dealership?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Maybe Toyota listened to roadburner and thought since he is so bored driving Toyotas maybe they should liven them up a bit. Make them a lttle more thrilling to drive. :P
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Sure sounds funny but it may still hurt Toyota. Right after that happened I followed a couple of very new looking Camrys down the road with dealer plates. They hurried into the auction late in the day as if they were dumping them before the news got out. :sick:
Perception drives reality.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Some of these acceleration problems must be real. I mean that first Lexus situation seemed to be a problem with the car. Some cases happened before all this started.
There was one runaway Toyota in Florida when we were there. The driver and the passengers said it was a problem with the car. But, the police investigation uncovered hand made thick plastic floor mats that got caught under the gas pedal.
From what I can tell, I think it is happening more than it should, and it is probably related to electronics.......maybe radio signals that just create a certain situation. Then again, there are a lot of slow news days lately, and these seem to make good lead stories.....
:confuse: :confuse:
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
lol....although I haven't driven a Hyundai I get the feeling it would be better than the Camry and RAV4 I did drive, or a new Corolla I have been a passenger in. At least there must be some sense of fun that you get driving a car. Not the numb feeling you are in nowhere land.....guiding (I won't dignify it by calling it steering) a few tons of metal along a road.
If a Hyundai is even worse, I couldn't imagine what that would be like.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
At a recent school bus safety meeting we were given a presentation on the dangers of "throttle misapplication". Translation: Some dummy hit the gas instead of the brake. One example was a driver in CA who stepped on the gas and the bus took off at full throttle running down 17 kids and traveling more than a mile across the school campus before the driver ran it into a wall to stop it.
Most of us found it hard to believe that a professional driver with years of experience could make such a dumb mistake. I've been driving school buses for over 20 years now and I never heard of this type of thing when we had mechanical throttle linkages. Makes me think of "pilot error" being the fall back excuse when the investigators can't find any other reason for a crash.
There is a whole ton of money riding on pilot error being the cause of Toyota's problems.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I was only responding to the AMEX "service" to buy a car, at what was seemingly a great price, as one of their credit card holders (not "black", either).
To me, this place was (and still is) posting unrealistic prices to get leads. Once they've captured the contact info, they can then try to get you in their door.
I've seen some of the prices posted that isell refers to. Somehow, somewhere, the dealer is making money. If they aren't making it on the car itself, they are making it somewhere else..
Some of the ones I've seen....
-charging the destination fee, twice
-the ubiquitous huge "doc fee" (seen as high as $800....stipulated that all of the deals include this charge)
-mandatory dealer installed options, ranging from paint sealant, interior protection to "lo-jack" type devices, to window etching, to pinstriping, etc.
I'm sure there are others, but like everything else, if it's too good to be true, it probably is. It makes no sense for a dealer to lose money on the cars they sell. Yeah, on rare occasions, there may be an undesirable model, in an undesirable color or undesirable option package. In those instances, I can see a dealer reduce the price where they just need to move the model off the lot. Again, I think that's rare.
Personally, I'm not going to waste time trying to buy at an unrealistic number, regardless of what someone posts in a "prices paid" thread.
On another note, just took delivery of a new Acura TL SH AWD. But, I'm on my laptop, and need to get a new battery since the one I've got is getting flaky.
And yes, the Tahoe is no longer in my garage. Both the dealership and Mr. Costco played a part.
If you guys are interested, I'll post details.
Off to Best Buy to get a new battery and power supply.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Better not. It's against the rules to solicit business on the forums. Posts will be deleted soon.
Like Chad Ochocinco would say "child pleeease." :P
*If* we're interested? Looking forward to the story and congrats.
That may well be true but it's interesting that the incidence of unintended acceleration in Toyotas skyrocketed after it became a news item particularly given the fact that Toyota's rates had been virtually indistinguishable from any other manufacturer. I'm sure these points will be amplified in the courts as Toyota defends itself from the inevitable onslaught of lawsuits it will be facing.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Perhaps the incidence rate was unchanged but the rate of incidents that are publicized is what has grown. NHTSA data bolstered by local police reports (for incidents not reported to NHTSA) would tell the tale, but I doubt that a meaningful analysis will be performed anytime soon.
You did say that you thought something was going to happen this week. You are a man of your word, no doubt. Details please...
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0 / 03 Montero Ltd
They certainly have no agenda against Toyota.
had my eye on a particular car lately, and had new car new car numbers all lined up, so i was going to take a look at it.
couldn't find it on the inventory list today, so i didn't drive out to see if it was still available.
We are all ears.b>
By the way, congratulations. Sounds like a nice car and I aqm pretty sure you got a good deal...I have confidence in your negotiating ability. Give us all the detsails including color etc.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Probably because their dealers turned away people reporting it. They told them there's "no record in the computer. There's nothing wrong. Go drive the car."
Perhaps now more people aren't taking "No" as a response from the service writer.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Just like Elvis and UFO sightings...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
I did a little calculation and approximated 1 UA for every 10,800 vehicles. Odds of a UA are looking pretty remote. Since I can't find anything wrong in mine and can't find anything I like better, maybe I'll drive it a little more. I'm at 4,920 miles now. Wifey even said a lot of this news seems like playing for the cameras. Who knows, maybe we'll bear with it until next year.
GG c'mon...the suspense is killing us here. Tahoe gone...TL in driveway? Tell pls.
2013 Mustang GT, 2001 GMC Yukon Denali
it is no reason to panic.
every poster here has pretty much tried to convince you of that.
We may have to wait... he's probably out breaking in that new engine.
First, we're experiencing pretty miserable weather in the Ohio Valley to be shopping for cars. It's grey, rainy, and pretty dismal. Not how I like to be walking around outside looking at cars.
Did get another call from Mr. Costco. He asked if I'd changed my mind on the price of the Tahoe. I had received a straight buy offer of $20,500 from a Chevy dealer. The 1st Acura dealer put $21K on a trade. I looked on ebay. They're all over the map....ranging from $22K-$30K+ on similar Tahoes. I've got average miles on it. It needs nothing. Gotta new pair of shoes on it. I'm figuring a dealer will put it on their lot for $29,999. Maybe sell it for somewhere in the mid $20s.
So, in answer to Mr Costco's question......considering I've got $21K in trade on it from the first Acura dealer. I've got $500 less than that on a straight bu offer from a Chevy dealer. I figure my tax savings by trading vs selling it outright is around $1,100. In an effort to move the Tahoe, I tell him I'm at $22,750, firm....all done, no more negotiations. That'll net me a few hundred more than trading it in.
Mr Costco asks if he can drive it again. "Sure, but it will have to be tomorrow (today). as I'm currently car shopping all day". He asks if I'll call him if I get close to a deal to see if we can work something out. OK....couple of issues here. First, I could call him when/if I've struck a deal. But, I still don't know if he'll step up more on his price. Nor, do I know if he can actually pay for it. In short, I tell him if I don't strike a deal, I'll give him a jingle.
Set up an appointment with Acura dealer #2, and a sales person I've done business with before. I tell him what I'm looking for. That is, a black TL with SH AWD and tech package. I want one WITHOUT black interior. He says he's got a black over black in the showroom. But, he's got at least 25 more on the lot, and that he'll check the color combos.
They're only about 15 minutes from where I live, so I trek on down with my offer sheet, the Tahoe, and all of the Tahoe's receipts with me.
I park the Tahoe and as I'm getting ready to enter their store, under an awning, sits a TL equipped the way I want, black with taupe (light gray) interior. I mutter to myself...."yep, that's the color combo I like"
Sales person greets me...."hey 'GG', good to see you again. Thanks for coming in. I pulled a TL under the awning to see if that's something you'd like. What do you think."
"That might work. What other colors you got?".
"Let me get an umbrella and we can walk the lot together".
We head out.....red metallic (not bad, but w/black interior), white (nope), light/dark gray (nope and nope), some light olive color (definite NO). Another white one with the brown interior (they call it "umber") that I thought I might like (too orange-ish), so no go on that interior color. Another one that's the metallic dog poo color (Nooooooo).
"Let's talk about the one that's sitting under the awning."
It's locked, so he goes inside to get the keys. Comes back, unlocks it (with the fancy 'just touch the door handle with the key fob in the pocket' to unlock it. I can live without that. But, there it is.
Interior is nice. May be hard to keep clean. But the carpets are black...nice contrast.
Salesman does his pitch...push button this, automatic that, stereo's nice, upgraded sport seats, a little of this, and a little of that.
After he's finished, he says "take it for a ride".
"How long you give me?" "As long as you want. If you could be back by 5:00 so we can do all the paperwork before we close at 6:00, it's pretty much ready to go." I chuckle at the "trial close".
"We'll see. Take a look at my Tahoe and see if you can put a number on it while I'm gone." I leave all the receipts, including the receipt for the tires sitting on the passenger seat for them to see....key is in the ignition.
It must be fresh off the truck. Odometer shows "4". I already know how it drives. I like how it drives. I go to pick up my dry cleaning, swing back around to the grocery store. Take it home to drop off the groceries and to get my son's opinion (he likes). Take the long way on the interstate and in town on broken pavement, just to make sure it's still to my liking. Got a real good feel how it will do in the rain. Does fine (actually impressively). Couple hours later, I'm back at the dealership.
Sales person comes up...."what to you think?"
"Well, I gotta be honest, I've driven one before briefly at your competitor."
(Mock surprise)..."why in the world would you do that?"
We come in and sit at his desk. I pull out my offer sheet. "You know how I do this. One offer....here it is". I pull out my offer sheet at $40,700...all in. Same deal that was rejected at the first Acura dealership.
Sales person says "you're not giving us much room to work on your trade". He gets the used car manager and the new car manager to come over. I already knew the new car manager, but not the used car manager. Both thank me for coming in and have my offer sheet sitting there. New car manager starts..."Mr. GG we like your Tahoe. It's obviously been well kept. We do a good amount of SUV business...Acuras and others. We'd like to have it on our lot. I also understand that you've been to (the competition). What do we need to do here to make this happen?"
"Well, can you do my number on your TL?"
"You came prepared didn't you? You doing a deal today?"
"I wouldn't have made all that effort if I wasn't. But, it all depends on what you guys want to do. I've got an Infiniti G37 on my radar, too."
"The G37 is a nice car, too." But (at this point the manager puts his sales hat on and starts to point out the differences, which I already know.)
"I'm right here, right now. What do you want to do?"
"We can do your number on our car. But, it depends on what you're thinking on the trade."
"Your competitor is at $21K on my trade. I'd like $22,500 on it."
Used car manager pipes up..."we like the Tahoe, but we can't do $22,500. We'll match $21, though."
"Nah...I don't like that number. There's nothing you have to do to the Tahoe. You can put it right in front on your used lot and get $25K. "
"Boy, I wish it was that easy. We have to put at least a 90 day warranty on it and hope nothing goes wrong. It would have been easier to move if the snow was still on the ground, but we're looking at Spring, and it could sit here for a couple of months."
"You guys are really digging in on this deal, aren't you?"
(nod to mack)....."to be continued"....
Was talking to coworker, who just bought a new Tuscon (and raved about how nice the car, and the dealership and experience, are/were). Mentioned toyota in relation to how the new Sonata was selling (off the turck). That led to the UA story.
Turns out, whe knows the person (moreso the passenger I think). IIRC, it was a rav4 that took off when pulling into a parking spot, and rammed into a building.
First thought, of course, is pedal misapplication. But, the details were wild. And they had a security guard backing it up.
CRa went rev wild. They couldn't get the shifter to move (finally kicked it into park), but engine kept going. Driver was standing on the seat, enginve kept going. Swears that they TOOK THE KEY OUT and it didn't stop engine. Not sure how it finally shut down, but suppsoedly had dug giant ruts in the mud we have so much of.
Still secondhand, but interesting none the less.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I'm not saying that there isn't a "ghost in the machine", but no one has been able to replicate UA in a controlled environment(that stunt by the hack "expert" Dr. Gilbert doesn't count). In the case you mentioned it almost sounds like the CANbus is infected by a virus. If the story is true, I'd have to think that you would find multiple fault codes in one-and probably more-control units.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Indeed, I did.
But, the prospect of hassling with what may, or may not, turn into a sale to Mr Costco, or the prospect of advertising the Tahoe in the paper, and going through all of that hassle, I'd prefer to do a trade-in. Don't have to. Would rather do it that way, though.
What would I net myself? Well, maybe an extra $1,000 in the sale of the Tahoe vs taking the tax savings. But, even that isn't a given.
Most know that I don't like sitting at the negotiation table for hours on end. But, 1/2 this deal is already done. That is, the agreed upon price of the TL. That brings me to the decision to stick with my pre-determined "one offer, and one offer only". Or, do a little horse trading on my Tahoe.
We continue.....
.....to the used car sales manager....
"The Tahoe still has 100K miles power train warranty on it. It's covered there for anything major. I'm pretty confident that nothing's going to fall off that would require you to put any warranty money into it. It's as tight as the day I bought it. What do you see that would go wrong that you'd have to cover under warranty?"
"Could be anything. The Tahoe has a lot of options on it. Could be a power seat motor. Could be anything not covered by the power train warranty. That could possibly eat up my profit."
This time, the new Sales Manager pipes back in (BTW, the sales person is getting me my 2nd cup of coffee at this point). "We want to do business with you. We can't give you what you want for the Tahoe. Let's say we give you $21,250 on the Tahoe, would that do the deal?"
"No, it wouldn't. But, $21,500 would do it."
Sales manager (grinning)...."$21,300."
Me (grinning back)...."$21,450".
Sales Manger (now grinning larger as he knows this deal is going to happen, as do I).
"21,300 and I'll throw in the winter mats and trunk liner".
I sigh deeply....look at him....uncomfortable silence.
He extends his hand to shake mine...."c'mon, let's send you home in a new car today."
I grin. "Tell you what, it's raining like hell out there. This new car isn't going to look very good by the time I get it home. I'll take your mats, and raise you a detail/wax job when the rain lets up."
"DONE!"
We shake hands. Shake hands with the Used Car Manager, and with the Sales Person. Sales person immediately heads out to the Tahoe to take the tags off of it to transfer them to the Acura.
Off to F&I. The requisite "extended warranty" pitch starts. I tell him "you can continue, but I just want to pay you and be on my way." He grins and says he understands. Odo reading paperwork is signed. License transfer is signed. I give him my offer sheet..."here, this may make it easier". Everything checks out. They give me a "due bill" for the detail/wax job. I still have to sign the final inspection sheet.
We refigure the taxes. They show an additional $150 discount on the TL to cover the "pre-printed" doc fee of $250). I write the check for the difference between my Tahoe and the Acura.
I do the inspection of the Acura. Looks perfect to me, both in and out. The sales person puts in the rubber mats and trunk liner. I sign the inspection sheet. He wants to go over all the features. But, by this time, they're getting ready to close. I tell him..."I know you have to do this, but can we do it some other time?"
He agrees. Shows me the basics, how to lock/unlock the car with the key fob (just touch the handle). Start it (I know this already). The rest I'll do sometime this week as I know his CSI depends on it. He'll get a "perfect".
I get all of my personal belongings out of the Tahoe and transfer them to the Acura. Salesman thanks me again for my business and shakes my hand. "Here's my cell number. Call me if you have any questions." I shake his hand, thank him. Off I go.
Mr Coscto? Well, he called me early this a.m. (about 8:30) wanting to know when he can drive the Tahoe again. I tell him that it's already sold. He informs me that he was willing to come up a little bit on his offer. I tell him it doesn't matter as the Tahoe is gone. Without a cordial goodbye, or a "thanks", he abruptly hangs up on me. Wonder if I'll ever see him at Costco again, and if he'll at least say "hi"?
I did have a couple of questions for you. They gave you $21,300 for the Tahoe while the private buyer offered $22,500 at last bid. For the $1,200 difference, did you consider leaving the dealership and calling the private buyer? How do you reconcile the missed opportunity to make an additional $1,200 profit? I suppose the free mats and the trunk liner are worth about $300? Also, the tax credit probably made up the difference, right?
Regardless, I am very happy for you. Hope you enjoy many miles of driving pleasure. The bottom line is that you found a vehicle that makes you happy. That of all things is the most important element in any car deal.
Best,
Richard
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
RB, one big problem with the idea that the ECU or the "black box" contains some vital info. Toyota owns that, esspecially the black box stuff (from all the othe rreports). And enough smoking gun info leaked out that I for one will not swear the Toyota doesn't know (still) more than they are letting on, or would hide something they did find in that box.
I have always been amazed that car ECUs don't have more problems, given the conditions they live in!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Richard,
I don't think the difference is $1200. GG got a tax break by trading it in, so if I remember his numbers (too lazy to go back and read) the tax break was $1100. So it's pretty much a wash.
In addition, he wasn't sure that Mr. Costco would step up to the plate adn then he'd be stuck having to advertise it and start over again with private buyers. He wasn't keen on that.
In other words, what stickguy said.
+1 Great story.
The problem is that the Toyota's computer (unlike that on many other vehicles) doesn't record a fault code when the throttle position is out of sync with the accelerator pedal, which is all Dr. Gilbert's hack was designed to show, and why dealers would tell customers there was no evidence of a problem.
While I'm sure that the sales pros here deal with this on a daily basis, there was something about the "private buyer" that I didn't really want to deal with him. If you asked me what that something was, I wouldn't be able to put my finger on it.
The tax benefit vs a higher private would have been a wash with the private buyer. I could have gone back to him to see if he'd up the offer. It would have taken a significant offer raise for me to consider the private sale to him. The way he was doing in in smaller increments didn't give me the "warm and fuzzies" that would have happened. I still didn't know if he was just jerking me around. Or, if he even had the money. Just a "gut feel", but I think it would have ended up that even if we came to an agreement on price, he was going to predicate it on selling his Lexus, or something along those lines. I could be all wrong on that count, though.
I'm not even sure what those winter mats/trunk liner is worth? $100? $200? I don't know what their cost is. Doesn't really matter to me. I figure the detail job will be done by someone who's already employed at the Acura dealer. They have to pay him whether he's detailing my car, or not.
I could have just as well took a newspaper ad out and tried to sell the Tahoe that way.
But, long and short of it, I went the easier route. It's a crap shoot. I maybe would have netted about $500-$1,000 more by going private sale (over and above the tax advantage by trading). Then again, maybe not.
Plus, just this weekend, as I usually do, I decided to do a deal.
You guys know, I've been kind of, sort of, messing around with this for a few months, now. Test driving a bunch of different models, trying to decide what it was I really wanted. Looking at this deal, looking at that deal.
As most predicted, I guess my preference was clear to all of you, I really liked the Acura. My biggest decision was whether I liked it $2K-$3K more than I liked the less expensive Infiniti G. Once I made that decision, it was then that I got really serious. But, there are others here who will probably disagree with me when I say that I preferred the drive of the Acura over the Infiniti.
Once I do a deal, I never fret over "could I have done this? could I have done that?"
Like the guy from NY who posted he could have done a better deal. Maybe yes. Maybe no. Do I want to go to NY to find out? Nope! While I'd never do that, even if I was trying to squeeze every last nickel out of the deal, it would have cost at least a $300 plane ride. Probably another $100 in gas and another $50 in food, and still have to drive all that way back. And, for what? $200-$300 when all's said and done? Not interested.
I'm happy with how things turned out. I like the car (obviously). I like the deal. I like who I ended up dealing with. It's good, all the way around.
One question. Do you think you might have worked out a courtesy deal with the dealership and Mr. Costco? There might not be enough difference to make it worth fooling around I suppose....but could one call to Mr Costco that he could buy it from the dealer for $22,500 have been a possibility? Personally, I wouldn't get involved in something like that, but it might net an extra $1000 or so if done right.....and if Mr Costco was really serious.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250