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  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Seat comfort is a big thing to me and the same with the shifting.

    It's the little tthings I don't understand, that's all.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Thank you for answering my Homelink question. I guess what is important to one person is of little importance to others and that is a good example.

    Funny you would ask about power liftgates.

    Up until last year, only the Touring Odysseys had these as standard equipment. They weren't available in the other models.

    I had at least two customers that I can think of that bought Tourings ONLY because of this!! ???? They paid thousands of dollars more for extras they probably didn't care about just for the power liftgate!!

    Starting last year, the EXL's have these as standard equipment.

    Another extra I could care less about. Opening my liftgate is an easy thing to do.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    I have to comment, craig, seat comfort is important to us dudes in our 60's. Interesting to note that that was not even remotely in the picture from age 16-22 for me. Borrowed a mid 60's mg midget from my uncles lot for a big date. Vroom-Vroom !!!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I agree on seat comfort.

    I've owner two MG's A 1962 MGA and a 1973 MGB.

    I'm not that tall but I'm too tall to drive a Midget. I tried.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I'll have to catch up on the posts but justa quick note - brentwood is selling my a CPO 2007 Camry XLE. Lots of fun toys and now I can see about this sudden acceleration biz.......

    More to follow.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    He's not selling -- you're buying. ;) Good luck.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited March 2010
    Nice knowing you Steve. Just know where neutral is and you should be OK. :P
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    You sound like a Town Car or Grand Marquis guy to me

    We were in Atlanta for a few days and we got a ride to the airport in a Lincoln Town Car. I have to admit, it is nice and comfortable. Beautiful leather, lots of room. Nothing wrong with one of those, if that's your thing.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    REHomelink. I can see if you don't think it's a big deal it's a puzzle to you when others do.

    Like my wife had to get a 335 instead of a 328 because she wanted Homelink. Car costs $4000 more and goes 2 miles less per gallon, but if it keeps her happy.........

    Note to JM: I think those ladies at work just appreciate good engineering ;)

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    So I will ask you i you feel comfortable and safe at 75 MPH with little distance between you and the car infront of you under any circumstance?

    Snake, are you still not wearing your seatbelt?

    Talking on the phone, going 75 mph, and not wearing your seatbelt is not a good combination, no matter how good a driver you are.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    Do you have anything to support this?
    If this is the case why are the roads getting safer when cell phone usage is going up?


    Lots of information to support it:
    Some studies have shown the increased likelihood of an accident to be four times the normal rate when a driver is using a cell phone. A large part of this dangerous distraction involves the need to physically handle the phone. Activities such as reading the display screen, pressing buttons and holding the phone to the ear all require the driver to take their hands off the steering wheel or their eyes off the road.
    accidents caused by cell phone use

    Just check google "percentage of accidents caused by cell phones". The numbers are staggering, and hands free doesn't help. Also, reaction time is slow when using a cell phone and it causes other people to get into an accident.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    Now if I am the customer and someone like my wife calls you bet your sweet a** that I will take it. Family will take priority in that situation

    Even if it is, "Bring home some bread"?

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Rented a Merc. GM in Florida a few years ago. Drove all over the state for a week. The car was fine but the trunk is a problem. Plenty big but there is a deep well in the front and the spare sits on a shelf in the back. I think the TC's are similar. Hard to pull anything heavy or odd shaped out of the well. Definitely off the list per my wife. The impala is flat and with the back seat folded very functional. Just a matter of taste.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    edited March 2010
    While my dad took me out to teach me to drive a stick his running comment was "Nice now grind another pound for me." Over and over. I of course used the line on my younger brother. Not that that was cutting edge or any thing but I still remember and passed it along to my son as he learned to shift his 1985 Celica stick. It's a family tradition I suppose.
    PS The celica was a blast to drive but it would lock brakes reliably on anything but bone dry roads.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Even if it is, "Bring home some bread"?

    But you wouldn't know that until you have taken the call. :)

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    But you wouldn't know that until you have taken the call.

    lol over that right now, BUT, what did we do before cell phones....or do we just have way more crisis situations these days?

    I am betting 80% of the calls that come from a family member are not crisis situations, and be handled without needing an immediate response.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not even looking to see if we need bread now...

    Well, we are home and all is well. My wife and two of the kids went home in the Camry with no incident other than getting lost on the way to the Thruway... Since we weren't trading anything we returned in two cars. I didn't fins out about the lost detour until I was a good 15 minutes down the road.... This would not be the me car (the Mazda 6 might have been) but it's great for her and as a family car. JBL stereo. Way nice. Quiet without being a bank vault.

    I had been telling her things heading up to the dealer (it's about a two hour drive). I mentioned a couple of domestics that might have done the job for her. At one point I mentioned the Grand Marquis and what a huge trunk it had. I told her she shouldn't have one because it's big enough to put a body in. She's a hospice nurse and bring enough of her work home with out that.....

    My 8 year olds were insanely well behaved considering we took their whole day to get everything done. Had their older sisters and usual babysitter not been unavailable they'd have been spared....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    I am betting 80% of the calls that come from a family member are not crisis situations

    Though the word "crisis" has probably been dumbed down beyond recognition, I would not take that bet. Better than 99.9% of the phone calls I take are not crises. :)

    P.S. I never use a cell phone while driving.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    Grand Marquis: The car was fine but the trunk is a problem. Plenty big but there is a deep well in the front and the spare sits on a shelf in the back

    I think those trunks are a little awkward because they had to move the gas tank up and out of the way because of police cars catching on fire after being rear ended.

    All I know is we put our carry on suitcase in that big massive trunk and it looked lonely.

    If anyone really loves Grand Marquis, this review of a 2005 model gives an enjoyable realistic outline of what they are really like.
    http://www99.epinions.com/review/pr-Cars-2005 GM LS

    image

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    Although a bit long, this article gave some important facts about talking on your cell phone while driving. The statistics are pretty amazing;

    *Cell Phones, Text Messaging, and Car Accident Information for All Drivers
    Talking on a cell phone causes nearly 25% of car accidents.

    *One-fifth of experienced adult drivers in the United States send text messages while driving.

    *In 2008 almost 6,000 people were killed and a half-million were injured in crashes related to driver distraction.

    *4 out of every 5 accidents (80%) are attributed to distracted drivers. In contrast, drunk drivers account for roughly 1 out of 3 (33%) of all accidents nationally.

    *Texting while driving is about 6 times more likely to result in an accident than driving while intoxicated.

    *People who text while driving are 23% more likely to be in a car accident.

    *A study of dangerous driver behavior released in January 2007 by Nationwide Mutual Insurance Co. found that of 1,200 surveyed drivers, 73% talk on cell phones while driving. The same 2007 survey found that 19% of motorists say they text message while driving.

    *In 2005, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration found that 10% of drivers are on handheld or hands free cell phones at any given hour of the day.

    *A study conducted by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety Motorists found that motorists who use cell phones while driving are four times more likely to get into crashes serious enough to injure themselves.

    *In 2002, the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis calculated that 2,600 people die each year as a result of using cellphones while driving. They estimated that another 330,000 are injured.

    *According to the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society, drivers talking on cell phones are 18% slower to react to brake lights. They also take 17% longer to regain the speed they lost when they braked

    *Of cell phone users that were surveyed, 85% said they use their phones occasionally when driving, 30% use their phones while driving on the highway, and 27% use them during half or more of the trips they take.
    84% of cell phone users stated that they believe using a cell phone while driving increases the risk of being in an accident.

    *The majority of Americans believe that talking on the phone and texting are two of the most dangerous behaviors that occur behind the wheel. Still, as many as 81% of drivers admit to making phone calls while driving.
    T
    *he number of crashes and near-crashes linked to dialing is nearly identical to the number associated with talking or listening. Dialing is more dangerous but occurs less often than talking or listening.

    *Studies have found that texting while driving causes a 400% increase in time spent with eyes off the road.

    See the whole article:
    statistics about cell phone use while driving

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    bianca....I had a power liftgate on my former Tahoe. Great feature. I don't know how much hauling you'll do. But, even fetching groceries, it was a feature I came to really appreciate. Just hit the FOB button and the liftgate unlocks and opens, ready for whatever you're going to load. Hit another button and it closes and locks. It's especially appreciated in the rain, where the liftgate opens and shields you from the rain while loading.

    Again, one of those features I never thought about before, but truly appreciated once I had it.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    My two cents on the various features on cars is that for some they are much more valuable than for others. And once those folks have them, they consider them a high priority for the next car.

    I used to criticize power windows as unnecessary problem causes because of failure rates. Now I love them.

    I thought HUD was totally trivial. Now I have had one for years on my LeSabre, I want one on the next new car. The Cobalt doesn't have it, but my next purchase will if it's another new car.

    I have Homelink in the Buick, and it's really nice not to have the door opener on the sun visor for someone's head to hit in an accident, if worse comes to worse.

    I didn't find OnStar particularly exciting although I kept it for a couple extra years on the 2003 Buick. But on the Cobalt it paid for itself when our son laid his Cobalt keys down in the backseat of our car when we took food out last summer during the marching band practice. He called 40 minutes later saying he needed the microphones and field commander equipment that were in the trunk of the locked Cobalt and his keys were in our backseat. We were 20 minutes away headed for a large cruise-in at the next county. OnStar unlocked the car for us after about 10 minutes -- it wasn't an emergency for them since human life (or pet life wasn't involved :P ).

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,337
    SOme of the items Craig mentioned are core ingredients to a car, and what ou should reject ones for. Stuff like seat comfort, visibility, steering feel/handling. Basically what the car is all about.

    I can see that other stuff like Homelink is certainly not as important, and should be more compromisable (that a real word?). But, that's why there are so many different options out there, and why cars come in different configurations.

    To me, the driver's seat is the biggest deal breaker. Doesn't matter how perfect the car is otherwise, if the driver's seat doesn't work for me, it is a no go.

    One of the big reasons I got my Accord instead of the Civic (new style) I went in to look at. Hated the CIvic front seat. Just did not fit me at all. Actually, I think the reason I never got a mazda 3 was related to the driver's seat too (dumped you too far forward), but that might have been fixable with some shims.

    Howmlink though was not a deal breaker, since I had it in my Maxima, and not in the 2 cars since.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Doubt that I'll buy one but the front seats in leather in the altima were top notch. Better than my murano which is premo as well.
  • jmonroejmonroe Member Posts: 8,989
    My two cents on the various features on cars...

    Now mine.

    I have had Homelink on my last 3 cars and I like it. Probably wouldn't let the lack of it keep me from buying another car but the cars I want will more than likely have it.

    I never had satelite radio until the Genny purchase but I like it and just renewed the subscription (over the objection of 'you know who') but it's my car so it's my call.

    Here's the tale about that:

    XM sent a letter with my options for renewal a few weeks ago (car was about to have it's first birthday). I wasn't going to fall for those prices so I was going to look into what was posted here about renewing but didn't get a chance. Two days later they call while I'm at work and Mrs. j calls me to tell me about it. I go home and they call again. This is on the verge of harrasment and I told them that and that I'm still thinking about it. About two days after that they call while neither of us is home and leave a message.

    I finally put an end to this crap by calling them a few days later after I found the post. I said I would renew but only for the $77 annual rate. They said, "OK, we'll give you that rate one time but then it would renew at the going rate next year automatically on my CC". I said, "I don't like that idea" and then she said, "if you're willing to pay $2 for a bill in the mail for this renewal we can do it like that and you don't have to put it on your CC". I agreed because I don't like the idea of anyone having my CC number at their disposal for something like that.

    Just yesterday, I get another call asking me to renew and I told the young guy that I've already renewed, weeks ago. :mad: He looked it up and said, "oh, I see it here and I'll note it in the system so that you don't get another call". I said "it's already in your system, you just saw it so why did I get this call"? He didn't have an answer for that, only an apology.

    Talk about the left hand not knowing what the right hand does...XM is the living model of this.

    jmonroe

    '15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl

  • fushigifushigi Member Posts: 1,459
    *In 2008 almost 6,000 people were killed and a half-million were injured in crashes related to driver distraction.
    *4 out of every 5 accidents (80%) are attributed to distracted drivers. In contrast, drunk drivers account for roughly 1 out of 3 (33%) of all accidents nationally.


    Driver distraction can include cell phone usage but also includes many other things.

    I would also disregard the 2002 and 2005 info; BlueTooth was not common on cell phones of that era. The hands-free headsets from then were and are somewhat cumbersome by comparison; no wonder people would just opt to hold the phone to their ears instead.

    Anyway, I'm not disputing that cell phone usage and texting are distractions; just that the data needs to be relevant to the times and specific to cell phones themselves. And I maintain my position that these Luddite Laws are redundant.
    2017 Infiniti QX60 (me), 2012 Hyundai Elantra (wife)
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    Almost everything I can find, related to the subject, finds that whether you use a regular cell phone or a hands free unit, the distraction level is the same. Also, distraction is the major cause of accideents...there is not one single bigger distraction than talking on a cell phone.

    A good article that covers almost everything on this topic:

    mobile phones and driving safety

    Driving while using a handsfree cellular device is not safer than using a hand held cell phone, as concluded by case-crossover studies.[15][16] epidemiological,[5][6] simulation,[8] and meta-analysis[10][11]. The increased "cognitive workload" involved in holding a conversation, not the use of hands, causes the increased risk

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    edited March 2010
    4 out of every 5 accidents (80%) are attributed to distracted drivers. In contrast, drunk drivers account for roughly 1 out of 3 (33%) of all accidents nationally.

    Wow, that means that 16 out of 15 accidents (113%) are caused by those two reasons. I wonder what causes the rest of them. 16 out of 15 doesn't leave much wiggle room. !! :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    If I am or am not wearing a seat belt is no ones concern but my own.

    The rest is just conjecture, but lets just say that anything combined with driving 75 is not a good combination since driving 65 with that combination is safer.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Some studies have shown the increased likelihood of an accident to be four times the normal rate when a driver is using a cell phone.

    Yes I have seen a lot of those studies. The major issue with them is that they were done by groups who already decided the outcome. When a group has a mission to tell all about the dangers of using a cell phone while driving and does a study on the effects of using a cell phone while driving what do you think it will find? They were hardley unbiased studies.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Even if it is "bring home some bread". Family first.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    BUT, what did we do before cell phones...

    A lot of husbands found out as soon as they got home that they had to go right out and pick up some bread.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    You can site statistics up the wazoo and find a bias that makes your point. Bottom line is that a driver who is focused and alert is less likely to have an accident than one who is distracted for ANY reason. I think it's time to move on.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    So what you are saying is all of these studies are flawed because of the self interests of the groups that conduct them?

    If this is the case, why bother doing studies at all?
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    If I am or am not wearing a seat belt is no ones concern but my own.

    Not really. You could always become an unguided missile and hit someone.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Cell Phones, Text Messaging, and Car Accident Information for All Drivers
    Talking on a cell phone causes nearly 25% of car accidents.


    Lets look at this first. Can we look at traffic accident rates from say 1990 and today? If that is true then the accident rate today should be about 25% more today than in 1990. I don't think that the statistics support this claim.

    In 2008 almost 6,000 people were killed and a half-million were injured in crashes related to driver distraction.

    But driver distraction can come from anything, a kid yelling in the back, talking to another passenger, a bee flying into the car, fiddling with the radio (FWIW they had this debate when radios first appeared in cars), taking a look at that fancy exotic sports car that just drove by, that nice looking woman in the shorts and bikini top walking along the street, and on and on.

    4 out of every 5 accidents (80%) are attributed to distracted drivers. In contrast, drunk drivers account for roughly 1 out of 3 (33%) of all accidents nationally.

    That would mean that 2 out of every 15 accidents are caused by a distracted drunk driver. Actually this statistic appears made up as they are attributing 113% of all accidents to two causes when there are many causes for accidents that do not include the two things listed above such as excessive speed, weather conditions, mechanical issues, aggressive driving and the like.

    A study conducted by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety Motorists found that motorists who use cell phones while driving are four times more likely to get into crashes serious enough to injure themselves.

    See my first statement.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    It is if the only purpose of the study is to support their claim. Its called being biased.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    If I become an unguided missle I will only travel a very short distance.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    If I become an unguided missile I will only travel a very short distance.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    There is a difference between being biased and conducting an honest, factual study.

    Yes, self interests can twist the facts to probe one's point but this doesn't necessarly have to be the case.

    There are independant studies too.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    It's hard to talk logic with a person who doesn't wear a seat belt.

    I'm sure you have an argument for the merits of not wearing one?
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Hey, Craig! While I didn't need to call you (good thing since I don't have the number and forgot your dealership name) we have settled matters. (I did post the basics earlier). Jen's in a 2007 Camry XLE. She loves it. Got to talk to Bill for quite a bit. He's been through a heck of a lot but is looking pretty good.

    I told her next time I'm flying out to Seattle and driving back! You just have to figure out how to register a car in NJ from Washington.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    If someone really wants to not wear a seat belt let him sign an insurance waiver so when he hits me he can't claim for all the additional damage to himself for not wearing it.

    There are a lot of people who feel about turn signals the way that snake views seat belts. They don't think anyone should make them use them.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    I often wonder isell, what is going on in the mind of an unbelted driver as he thrown out of the car and bounces down the road. Same for unhelmeted motorcyclists just before they fly headfirst into the curb. It seems like such a simple choice. Please be assured that I am not advocating any position pro or con because that is a waste of time. People believe what they want to believe. Passions run high in this regard but I just wonder what they might be thinking.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,351
    Do you know the old joke of what goes thru a gnats mind when he hits your windshield? .....his a-hole. :)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    Yes there is a difference, but stating your position then stating that you are going to prove it with a study is not being honest.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel Member Posts: 19,592
    I'm sure you have an argument for the merits of not wearing one?

    Yeah, I was in a very serious accident some 30+ years ago and wasn't wearing one. I walked away from an accident that crushed the drivers seat. If I was in that seat I would at the very least been seriously injured.

    Anyway the logic in it is that its my choice and I am the only one that suffers if things go bad.

    Anyway it is hard to talk logic to someone who doesn't believe that people should have a choice on how they live their lices.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Good deal! You'll like that Camry.

    I was wondering about Bill. Is he healthy?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    edited March 2010
    Oh, I think people shouild have a choice.

    I lost a good friend in high school. The car she was riding in rolled over in a culvert and she was thrown out. Teh car rolled on top of her and crushed her.

    Her name was Karen. Beautiful blond with blue eyes and a dazzling smile. A cheerleader and A student. Her parents were my parent's best friends.

    Karen didn't die right away. It took her several days. Nothing the docs could do. She was able to look into the faces of her family and tell them..." I know I'm dying, I love all of you...goodbye.

    The police said that with a belt on she probably wouldn't have been hurt.

    Snake, I know nobody will be able to convince you that your experience was a fluke. I know I'm not going to try.

    Hopefully your family members wear theirs.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    How do I put this? For what he's been through he's healthy. It doesn't put him out of the woods but right now he looks great and cancer free.

    In that respect he's like me - if you had all these maladies you'd think you were in bad shape but for me everything is relatively under control and I'm not expecting to check out any time soon.

    He says we're going to be doing a car auction together at one point. Of course he first said that in 1998....

    He also mentioned that during cash for clunkers every time he had to seize the engine on a Windstall he'd say "this is for you, Fezo!"
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
This discussion has been closed.