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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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I think there's probably a big difference between what the customer expects in buying a Porsche over buying a Nissan. With a Porsche (as with BMW, or MB, or Audi) I think it's more of a business transaction...than the usual expectation of what you get at volume dealers.
From what I'm reading, if I were buying a Nissan (just using them as an example), it's more of a circus atmosphere....at least at the stores around me. With Porsche you can talk about the cachet, the reputation of the brand, the performance of the car, etc.
If you walk into a any of the local Nissan dealerships, I do indeed get the "give me your CC and we'll go out and test drive". To me, you're just inviting me to "grind" you when you do that. If I'm going to grind for the Nissan, you better believe I'm going to go to the next Nissan store and grind them.
Boom, strictly from a consumer's standpoint, I think I might try more "qualifying questions". Take this for what it's worth, because I've never been in car sales, but certainly have been involved in plenty of transactions for myself, my family and my friends.
I would think it would go something like this....
sales..."what's your time frame? today? next week? next month? next year?"
Unless you've got some true joy riders or tire kickers, you'll probably get the nebulous answer...."it depends".
"Depends on what? Color? Model? Options? What are you going to use it for? Why do you want a Nissan XXXX? Have you already been shopping somewhere else? If so, where? What were your experiences there?"
Once you get all your "why and what" questions answered, the only thing left is price. I'm going to make an assumption here. I doubt any dealership will lose a deal (a legitimate deal) on price. I'd make that fact known up front.
If your potential customer is in your store, they are there for a reason. Once you find that reason, it's up to you to either turn them into a customer, or have them walk.
If you invite them to grind you, they will grind you (and perhaps go somewhere else and grind some more, because they think they can).
That should be a gold mine for a sales person. As my late Father used to say "there's a reason you only have one mouth and two ears. You should listen twice as much as you speak".
No disrespect meant. But, I would think listening to your customer would be 95% of your job.
I agree. A lot of oneupmanship, hidden trades they didn't bother to mention, regional variations, 1 unit from the next bonus level, etc.
I don't get my hopes up for some of the lowball reports; looking mostly for a general range.
There were a few diamonds in the rough, but they were few and far between. Pam was one of my favorite customers. She sticks out in my mind as being one of the only customers who would let me do my job and was happy to pay me for it. I was a salesman when I talked to her and she appreciated it. She liked to hear about the vehicle and the gadgets. She loved the look of them. She would bring up a number of objections and would listen to me as I overcame them. Then she would pull out her checkbook and buy the car. Great customer that made me feel useful and I had a good time with her.
It's a whole different world and I'm a whole different person now. I got a new wife and baby too within the last two years, so that changes your perspective a bit. :surprise:
Thanks, GG.
I guess my next question would be, do you do this with a price in mind? Or are you just hoping to "win".
I know there are some people out there who just want to "beat me" at pricing. These are the guys who, when you give them a deal at invoice including all the incentives you've got, still want a better deal. At the store I work at, we generally will go straight for our bottom number (or close to it) in the beginning, to get rid of the haggling process (we hate it more than you think). However, we still occasionally see those folks (I hope you're not one of them) who wants to argue about price anyway. They don't know what a good deal is, they just know they want to pay less than our first number.
I don't know about anyone here, but this is the #1 question I hate being asked. There's no way to win.
If I give you a number, there is no one in this world who will be like, "Oh wow! I never thought it would be that number! Sign me up!" BEST case scenario is the person says, "Alright, thats not bad, what can you do on my trade."
Instead of walking into a dealership and asking for their best price, walk in, present yourself as an educated buyer (which shouldn't be hard considering you've done your homework RIGHT?), go in, and make an offer. Don't ask for a best price, give them YOUR best price, and work from there. Before you go to buy a car, you should KNOW WHAT YOU SHOULD EXPECT TO PAY. That's the key. Don't ask for pricing, you already know what it should cost give or take $500, go in, drive the car, then tell them what you'd like to pay for it.
If you must ask for a price, don't ask for a "best price", ask how much it goes for. That way you're not asking MSRP, but you're leaving it open for them to try and give you a fair price. If they leave a couple grand on the table, instead of getting mad, tell them what you'd like to pay and go from there. They'll either take your offer or they won't.
There's no need to put everyone on the defensive by refusing to sit down and saying, "Just give me your best price, I don't want to waste my time!"
You see, trouble is practically EVERYBODY claims to have lowest prices and "no haggle necessary", yet when it comes to it their "lowest no haggle you can't beat that deal" prices, they morph into race of fees, ADMs, "appearance packages", "paint sealants", etc. After couple of experiences like that NOBODY believes them. The smart people know their price and stick to it, the other ones either get hosed or walk on real good offers because they get too scared and paranoid to make any decision.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
And the answer will be "Oh, we sold twenty of those for sticker just last week, but I can see you're a serious buyer so I give you $300 discount", or "They're so hard to come by these days (you know those Tahoes are so hot lately since gas went down 50c") - I have to say full sticker is the minimum we can go". Or how about "we provide best customer service in town and we put all that valuable equipment on them and take extra care when washing tires, so I have to say - (you guessed it): sticker plus those mandatory accessories is the minimum we can take". What should I say then?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Read my other post about two sentences after the part you quoted. If you ask what it goes for, and it's still too high, tell them what you want to pay. The key to the whole thing, is that you know what you should pay when you walk in. There are plenty of places online you can find that information. If they won't give you your number (or at least get close for you), then tell them thank you for your time and leave. But it doesn't hurt to ask them first. It lets them feel like they've at least got a shot to get you done, and if you come back with a lower number, congratulate yourself on being an intelligent and wise car buyer and see if they'll work with you. The worst that could happen is they'll say they can't get to your number, and you'll leave 2 hours earlier than you would've if you'd have tried to sit down and haggle them down... which I promise you, we don't like either....
Well let me put it to you this way. When you go in, the price thats on the car is the cost of the CAR. It's not the price of the fees, ADMs, appearance packages (if the car has one, it should be on an additional sticker IN THE WINDOW), paint sealants, etc. You haven't talked about the cost of those things because you're not buying them yet. Once you agree on the price of the car, if you want anything else, buy it, if not, don't. But there's no reason to get worked up just because they're trying to sell you something else on your way out the door.
You might as well throw a fit because wal mart keeps gum and soda by the cash register. Sure no one goes into wal mart to buy gum and a single bottle of soda, but why not grab one on the way out the door? Sure no one's hawking it to you, but still. If you want extra stuff, buy it. If you don't want extra stuff, don't. As for dealer fees, they're a fact of life, just like death and taxes. They might take the amount of the dealer fee out of the price of the car, but I promise, the "dealer fee" line, will have something in it in the final write up. My GM here had to pay a processing fee (i.e. doc fee, dealer fee, owners new swimming pool) when he bought his wife a new Mercedes. We've all got to deal with it. It sucks. Get over it.
If you really don't want to deal with having a bunch of new things thrown in the deal after you've done all your negotiating, then tell them you want an out the door (OTD) price in the first place. They should bring you a worksheet of some kind with the deal broken down for you so you can see the price of the car, the fee's, taxes, etc. Additionally, if you want an extended warranty, you can also get the price for that at this time, and negotiate everything together. Then you can negotiate based on the total figure, so you know exactly what you're paying to walk out the door.
That last part, as you already know, changes your life dramatically. Since you posted about a favorite customer, I'll chime in with a favorite sales person.
Not really the sales person, per se. But, I relayed several weeks ago about how the GM at the BMW dealership actually sold me a car when the dealership was closed.
In truth, he was aggressive, but in a way that I didn't mind. His best "close" (from my perspective) was when he said...."I'm here. You're here. Let's get to a deal."
Fair enough. I am more comfortable with them going first. When they come back with a number I will either know this deal is close to being wrapped up and I can relax a bit or we are miles apart and I need to prepare for a long battle or an exit strategy. But, hey, if I am educated then I guess it really doesn't matter does it? Here is my offer, let's shake hands and go to F&I or let's shake hands and go home. I can play that way if its less abrasive.
You are the BMW guy from Lynchburg, right? You are the perfect candidate to respond to the last paragraph in my 34307 post. You are in a small BMW market with bigger competition not too far away just as I am. What's the real deal on a basic 528? Send me an email if you would rather not say in public. How'd you get so many M3's with such an otherwise small inventory?
It really boils down to screamer ads - I truly despise them, especially ones with "YOU PAY" on them (you know, the one subtracting 3 grand for trade and not accounting for junk fees in the "price"). I think they are dishonest and and insulting to my intelligence, and show very poor character of people in charge. Add to it "appearance packages" applied on every single unit at the lot and I'm out of there - yet I'll see the same "lowest prices" ad in paper next week.
The problem is this approach spreads here like a contagious disease in my area (Tampa), now getting to those dealerships that used to be "good guys". My local friendly (really nice guys) Subie dealer just increased their junk fee by two hundred bucks (over 50%), just "catching up with competition"
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Thats exactly my point. Most dealers will have a number, or a range of numbers in mind for each car. It makes things a lot smoother if you're an educated buyer and have a number in mind too. Saves a lot of trouble in the "figuring out if you can afford it" stage.
Yeah, I'm in lynchburg. I sent an e-mail to traindriver@carspace.com, let me know if I did that right, I'm kinda new to these boards.
haha, as far as the M3's, I believe we can chalk that up to an over-aggressive owner. But I definitely wouldn't say so in public.
Again, this is one of those situations that just kinda happens. You used to be able to buy a 24 oz. bottle of Mountain Dew for $0.99. Now a 20 oz bottle is $1.24. You get less for more. The pack of gum that used to be 17 or 18 sticks is now 14 or 15 and it's 10 cents more.
Car dealers do the same thing with the same percentages it's just that the markup is in hundreds or thousands of dollars instead of cents.
In terms of the screamer ads you were talking about, I would totally ignore them. Don't let an ad convince you that you want to buy a car. When you want to buy a car, do your research and find out what you should pay, then go in with that figure in mind. If you do it this way, you bypass the middle man (ads, aggressive managers and F&I guys, mailers, etc) and go straight to talking about how much you should expect to pay for car X. When it boils down to the basics, all it is is a glorified horse trade, and there's really no need to make it any more complicated than it has to be. You give me X, and I give you Y, now how much of X is it going to take to get how much of Y. And so on. If you know how much you want to pay going it, it will make the entire process so much shorter and easier on everyone involved.
Smaller dealer groups include Performance (Toyota, Honda, Lexus...they may have some stores in TN and FLA). Another smaller dealer group is called Superior (Honda, Acura, Hyundai, Chevy).
The only two BMW dealerships around me are good (although, some say the place I bought mine from....Sweeney....have had issues). The Sweeney group also has a Chevy, Mazda and Subaru store.
I think there's one independent Saab dealership, family owned. Same for the other BMW dealership (The BMW Store). There's an independent family owned Buick, Pontiac, GMC dealer (Borcherding). Another independent Nissan dealership (Busam). One independent Ford dealership (Fairfield).
Two Mercedes stores, but I'm unsure whether they are part of a dealer group or independent.
Past that, you get into the big conglomerates that carry a ton of brands.....Joseph, Woeste, Joseph. Kerry, Lormar, Wyler. They cover everything else...from Kia to Porsche....multiple stores, multiple brands, multiple locations.
Of those, I know of the "screamers"....Kerry and Wyler. I stay away from those cause I know what I'm getting before I even walk in. I always feel like I have to take a shower after visiting them.
Overall, I know the dealership groups and what they're known for. I stick with who I know for the most part. I trust them. And, the other stores I've either had a bad experience with, or don't want to deal the way they like to deal (keep me in the dealership, grind me, bump me).
Yes, you did it right. I will send you a reply in a few minutes.
If you have a formula for accounting for junk charges I'd like to hear it. The ring of Kia dealerships around Louisville is owned by the same group. So, all their dealerships have these pre installed dealer add-ons (security system, mud flaps, pin stripping) which amount to around $2,000 for each freaking vehicle on their stinkin lot.
So, Kia can say they will sell be a car at $600 under invoice (including dealer add-ons) and still make around $800 over invoice... given the dealer add-ons were worth about $600 (my guesstimate). Add on a $489 dealer fee and the $600 under invoice price doesn't look too good. :sick:
"Usually, when people start talking about the weather it means that they have run out of things to say. "
Unless it concerns them.
Moi?
Additionally in response :
"
Crude wants to go down, even the threat of a possible cat 4 hurricane could send it north.
"
Why would it go north? Oil companies have been dealing with hurricanes in the Gulf every year since the beginning of off shore drilling. Hurricane season also coincides with the end of Summer and, traditionally, gas prices begin to decline at this time of year. Hurricanes don't seem to have any effect on that. These recurring events really do not take the oil companies by surprise. "
While it could go north as oil traders react to possible rig damage and /or possible shut down production. I am of the opinion that the bubble's back is broken and that crude prices will continue down, as I've stated previously. Some of the rigs are semi submersible and the rest are built , shall we say ? Ford & Chevy tough . Now as to gasoline prices, your reply is the conventional wisdom, however as also stated, 26 refineries , 1/4 of US capacity call the Gulf coast home. They are all currently shut down until the storm passes and hopefully, no damage. And since we're operating our refineries at 100%, well... you do the math.
Land fall around midnight unless it picks up speed. Galveston flooded, started around mid morning. 20-25 foot waves coming over the 17' seawall and that was just coastal flooding with the hurricane 200 miles away. The storm surge will come before and during Ike.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Latest is that the wave level at the ocean bouys is 36-37', water has been pouring over the Galveston Seawall.The storm surge to hit Galveston Bay is expected to be 25'.
Cities neighboring Galveston , Kemah and Seabrook now totally flooded as well. Nothing much to do except wait. All moveable objects cleared from the yard. A storm website, houstonhidefromthewind.org is predicting 93mph winds for my zipcode. We have water, food, icechests, medicinal alcohol
I try to do the same thing. But, it makes it a little more difficult when Kia adds this $1,800 security system to every vehicle in their dealer group. The one where you take a key card and swipe it over a sensor located near the bottom of the steering column.
That system probably cost Kia anywhere from $150 to about $900 to install... a pretty big spread. So, you assign a monetary value too small, say $150, and the dealership probably won't sell the car to you... as their cost is actually $550. Which is fine with me because I'll go somewhere else.
Becomes a problem with people who really want a Kia though. They think they are getting one of the lowest priced cars on the market. But, when they come out paying for all the dealer add-ons and high doc. fees, it's not such a good deal... they could have moved up to a Hyundai. I guess a lot of people are falling for it as Kia seems to be selling a fair amount of cars.
That's exactly right. We can't blame dealers for making profits or trying to get more for "nothing". All of us want it. We want car for "nothing", too... All there is if you don't like a car or the price, don't buy it. I see everything conditional. At one point it's a value, at another it isn't. If Spectra with security upgrade costs as much as Corolla without it, I'd rather have the Corolla. Same argument can be done for almost every product. Find more expensive competitor that offers slightly better product - if the price moves toward that just leave and tell them why...
BTW, security system on Kia is just hilarious. Yeah - those thieves are waiting behind the corner just to steal your precious Optima
2018 430i Gran Coupe
There goes my Kia I guess.....
People throw away the owners manuals, you know the manual for this thing will have a high possibility of being tossed in the future. So, when it fails, and probably cause failure in other electronic in the car, no one even knows what Unknown-Brand system is in the car, much less how to trouble shoot and repair it.
In my opinion, an add on such as this actually deminishes the value of an auto.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Hoping I don't have to pull a Michael Phelps.
I'd suggest that dealerships pass on the Houston car/truck trade-ins for a while. Especially if registered to an owner in Galveston or the coast. Probably SE and SW Houston as well. Here's some local coverage,a reporter standing on top of the seawall gets flustered when a big one hits and forgets his words. Keep in mind the seawall is 17ft high.
link title
I will gracefully accept that point of view....
LOL That was the fault of all the nice sales people here. They brainwashed me. I felt so sorry for the poor guy I bought from I didn't have the heart to grind.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
So tell us, what really is the dealer's cost? It's about $49 right? They really make about a zillion dollars on every sale right? Right? Right?
Come on, you can tell us. We won't tell where we heard it.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Don't see it at all on the highlines. But, they command more margin without resorting to add-ons.
Just curious, is it at all possible to get a Kia that's straight off the truck before they had time to add-on everything? If not, maybe time to look at something in the same general range as a Kia? Hyundai? Toyota? Honda?
Or, make the trip to the Buckeye state to buy a car?
How do they justify the dealer installed stuff? I can't imagine buyers take too kindly to having those "options" stuffed down their throats.
Their main justification is probably because they can get away with that (or so they think). I think it's a type of mindset that sees only the sales that happened (with all those awesome profits), but is completely blind on what might have been lost. It's a jackpot system with relatively good odds. You lose many times, but you score enough to think it's a winning strategy.
I think a lot of it also comes because majority of their customer base (please, don't understand it as anything but observation) are people with limited means and often limited understanding of finances (obviously not Snake or Jip, but anybody would see it's often the case). I'm pretty sure all trick in the book are used on those customers, mainly to distract such them real cost (you know, the usual "minimum trade allowance", "real estate" car loan, focus on "nominal" price rather than total value after everything is added, etc.). When they meet a more informed buyer, they often don't know how what to do and often aggravate the situation very quickly. From their perspective all people are dumb deadbeats (would not be surprised if it was what they were taught on their seminars) and they treat them as such.
Goes to mindset again - even if they lose people like Jip, they don't care as they just scored two full packs on some poor single mothers.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Not sure about getting a Kia straight off the truck before the add-ons. But, my niece was the one in the market for either a Kia Sportage or Hyundai Tucson a few months ago. She asked, and I told her I'd help with the negotiations.
The Kia dealership just across the river was under the same group as those in Louisville. They had the expensive dealer add-ons as well. My niece said she needed a new car that week, so we probably would have expanded our search if she had her heart set on a Kia.
But, she also liked the Hyundai Tucson. Hyundai only had like $200-$300 in add-ons (mud flaps, cargo carrier) , and didn't have the gigantic non-negotiable doc. fee or the gigantic marketing allowance fee that Kia had (total for both over $800). So, she ended up buying the Tucson for around $600 under true dealer invoice.
How do they justify the dealer installed stuff?
The salesman did a pretty good job on my niece on showing how "valuable" the security system was. She had gone to look at the car by herself, came over to my house and started talking about how great it was. The next day I saw it for myself, told her the price was highly over inflated and she really didn't need it. Also, I wouldn't want it due to the fact you have these dealership people splicing into your wiring and such... could cause a problem with reliability.
Like dino said, and I agree, if you don't want it (dealer add-ons) don't pay for it. If the dealership doesn't like your offer, go somewhere else.
I'm pretty sure all trick in the book are used on those customers, mainly to distract such them real cost
Good points. I got the feeling the Kia salesmanager's didn't want to work with us, as we weren't going to fall for the gimmicks. The 2 different Kia dealerships we went to didn't put fourth much effort in getting a sale. They were like, "This is the price... if you don't like it there's the door". Which is fine with me, but I'll never buy from a business model like that.
This reminded me of a funny (depending on your viewpoint I guess) story this guy who works with me told me.
About 20 odd years ago during the last gas "crisis" he was working at a Honda store in town and people were trading in their caddy's and lincolns and benz's on these Accords because of the gas mileage.
Apparently there was a certain doctor in town that didn't want a sunroof, but the owner had ordered sunroof's installed (back when they were a DAA) in all of his Accords. Well the doctor comes to the dealership one day and sees them pulling an Accord off the truck with no sunroof (yet) and goes running inside to grab my friend.
"I just saw the PERFECT one for me and it didn't have a sunroof!" Well, my friend knows the policy, so he goes and gets the owner. The owner says,
"I'm sorry sir, you must be mistaken, all of my cars have sunroof's in them." The guy goes,
"No, I saw it pulling off the truck 15 minutes ago and it didn't have one." So the owner looks at him and goes,
"Ok, follow me. We'll go see if it's got one or not." The poor guy follows the owner to the shop with my buddy in tow. Sure enough, there's the car sitting there ready to be PDI'd with no sunroof. The customer's thrilled that he was right,
"I told you I saw one with no sunroof!" The owner walks over to a bench, picks up a foot long flathead screwdriver, and slams it down through the roof of the Accord. Turns around with the screwdriver still in the roof and goes, "I'm sorry sir, you must have been mistaken, all my vehicles come with a sunroof, now how were you planning to pay for your beautiful new car?"
I can hardly believe that stuff like that used to fly, but apparently when people want something bad enough.... :confuse:
A salesman told me he couldn't have a used car manager price my tradein without a signed contract. I was out the door within 5 minutes. Also they won't get my drivers license. And a credit card won't matter. I'll be paying via check from a money market most likely. If they don't want cash, there are other dealers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
We have to know who you are. Nothing personal.
I think I have had maybe two people object over the years.
PS: Now and then paranoids are right. :P
If a salesman asks me for my cc just to shop/negotiate then I shall ask for his in return if he wants me to shop/negotiate at his store! Will probably ask for the SM's too, figuring mine will be moving around the place. No, ain't gonna happen.
Maybe the Boston market is too competitive for this kind of stuff...
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
Man, that is one sad day when the car buying world thinks that “moving up” is owning a Hyundai. :confuse:
I know how to fix that; I’ll start looking at BMW’s, Benz’s, maybe even Porsche just to get away from the low end status seekers. I also know this is going to cost me but it’ll be worth it because I ain’t going to put up with that stuff. :mad:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
We have to know who you are. Nothing personal.
I can understand the reason for a copy of your driver’s license and when I bought in 05’ and 06’ (different dealers) both wanted that and I obliged. As for a “five liner” (BTW, I don’t know what that is), neither ask to run a credit check although they both knew I would be writing a check for the car. That surprised me but if they were that trusting I certainly wasn’t going to volunteer any personal information if none was required by them and, no I never bought a car from either of them before.
Obviously, different dealers do business different ways and a lot may depend on the area where you are buying.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
I've been to dealers who refuse to negotiate without a filled credit app. Test drives don't matter cause I never do those. And there was this one Chevy dealer who I bought a used truck from and paid by check and also wanted a credit app due to a law under the Homeland Security Act and when questioned started to stutter.
If filling out a credit app is required to negotiate, they can simply put that vehicle you know where. As far as the one asking for it when handed a check well, I told him to bring out a manager who doesn't sound like an idiot to which he replied the F&I manager can clarify on the credit app. Course when I asked the F&I guy about the credit app he says,"what for, you're paying by check". Needless to say I didn't say anything about the salesperson's request rather just got the paperwork and left.
Back in '95 when negotiating for a Lincoln Mark VIII salesperson asked for a credit card before the test drive. Told him to nix the test drive and concentrate on the price. He did mention it a couple more times about the credit card but never a credit app. So I gave him a credit card to hold and at the end of the deal when asked how I would be financing it I told him simple. Charge it to that card you're holding. Must've been a greanpea cause he was all excited and left to get whatever forms he needed only to return 5 minutes later to give me the bad news of having to add 4% to the sales price of the car to make up for the cc fees.
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Usually when I've taken a test drive they have asked to make a copy of my license. No problem. Keeping my license would be a problem as I would need it if stopped by the police. Of the last three cars I've bought one made a copy, one just handed me the keys and one came along (new car) for the ride without asking for it.
On the credit card thing, I might have a problem with that. We've been told on this forum that dealers limit how much you can put on a card to about $5000. So there would be no reason to have that info. If they wanted to run a credit check while you test drive they should say so. I usually pay cash so there's no reason I'd give up that info on a used car. When I bought a new car I gave the salesman a copy of my credit report myself so he didn't have to wonder if I could afford the car.
Credit applications are a joke these days anyway. I financed every penny of my new car and was never even asked to prove income. They just handed me 25K on my good looks.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Just think how much you could have got if you really were a handsome devil....
Sorry oldfarmer....you left yourself wide open for that one.
I'm still of the mind that the more competition (same model stores with different owners) is the main way to get rid of some of the fees and unwanted dealer installed options.
I relayed how difficult it is to deal with the local Lexus stores around me. They're owned by the same person. Same goes for Infiniti....one store in the local area. I can't seem to come to terms with either. Conversely, the same ownership of the Lexus stores, also owns a local Toyota and Honda store. Very easy to deal with them. That's because there's at least two other Toyota and Honda stores, with different owners.
Mentioned a while ago, that I've tried to buy an Infiniti on a couple of occasions. The local Infiniti store has very nice people working there. We've never been able to hook up pricewise. If I'm ever in the market for an Infiniti again, I've already made up my mind it's going to have to be with an out of town dealer, that has more competition.
Not car related, but same deal. Several months ago, I was completing my home theater. I really wanted a Pioneer 60" plasma display as the centerpiece. At the time, there was only one high end home theater store carrying them. Their price was north of $6K. Best Buy started carrying them. Then Costco jumped into the game on Pioneer plasmas, too. The price dropped dramatically by a whopping $2K at the high end store when those two jumped into the market.
2018 430i Gran Coupe