Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Stories from the Sales Frontlines
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You don't know the people I play poker with.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You know I wish one of you guys sold near me. I would do that to you just for grits and shins when I go car buying next summer.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I agree 100%. The newbies get excited, the seasoned pros run away.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
You know, when you are about to be clubbed like a baby seal.
I also always have a pen with me (not a pencil, with an eraser on it), too.
Sometimes, I even have a check with me, in my wallet, with the amount I figure to buy the car for already filled in.
Do those things make me a stroke?
When I show up with my note book I most likely will not want to talk to a salesman. I would have done my research and just want to see the car and how it feels when I sit in it. I may or may not trim down the number of potential cars to buy before I go on test drives later.
Do those things make me a stroke?
Hey if you have the check filled out you have to be willing to buy. If you don't it must simply because you couldn't meet on the price and thats ok if both sides are reasonable.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
And NO that doesn't make you a "stroke," unless you do this months prior to purchasing a car.
Pricing, as you know, is as much art as it is science. For example, the last new car I bought was a few months ago....a Honda Accord. I thought about it being the end of model year. Economy is in the dump. It just so happened to be end of month when I was ready to buy. I don't buy on a weekend, when foot traffic is heavy. I buy during the week, preferably during the day, when there's little foot traffic in the showroom. Refine that even further...I usually go first thing after their a.m. sales meeting. Hopefully, they want to get that first unit on the board to start the day off right.
I look at the "sales board" to see if they've had a good week/month. Or, if they look a little lite on the sales board. My thought process is if they're lite on the sales board, they might be more willing to take a "skinny deal".
After I've gathered all my info, I call to make an appointment. I'll keep it (unless something crazy comes up, but I'll call to cancel, too). I expect the person I made it with will keep our appointment, too.
Most times, even though I tell a dealership that I'm not buying "right now", some will try the "if I....will you?" game with me. Knowing the pricing (invoice, holdback, stock situation, etc), I can make a fairly accurate educated guess what I think the car may sell for.
Anyway, based on all of that, I put a number on the car that I want to buy.
As I said, if I'm planning to buy right now, I'll tell the sales person that. If I'm really just shopping, I'll tell them that, too. Without fail, whether I tell them I'm just shopping or not, they offer a test drive. Sometimes I take it, particularly if I'm comparing more than one model or manufacturer. Sometimes, I'm down to just one model, one color, etc...already driven the car somewhere down the line. And, I don't need another test drive.
I write all of my numbers down....purchase price, TTL, doc fees, etc to come up with an OTD price. If I'm financing, I even go so far to figure interest into it, based on the rate my bank/S&L/CU will give me (yes, I shop finance rates, too). If the dealer can beat the rate, all the better. All those numbers go into my little "book".
When I tell the dealership I'm serious about buying, I mean what I say. That's why I have a check, that I've already completed (either for the down payment, or the entire amount). Sometimes I have to tear up the check, if a deal can't be reached at a particular dealership.
I use a financial calculator to recheck the numbers...even interest charges, if they're applicable. That's to protect both of us. Sometimes the dealership makes a mistake. Sometimes I've made a mistake. If I made a legitimate mistake in figuring eveything out, I'll give the dealership a Benjamin to hold the car until I retrieve another check that's corrected.
But, by that time, I've already checked and rechecked my numbers, more than twice. But, it happens.
If the dealership made a mistake, then they risk me leaving. The number on the check doesn't change. It's already been filled out.
By the time I get to your office, it should just be a matter of plugging in the numbers to add up to the price we came to terms with by sales person, or more likely, the sales manager. Sometimes they want me to sign a deal sheet, which I don't have a problem with, as long as the numbers haven't changed. Sometimes, we both just initial the deal in my note book.
At any time, I'm willing to show my numbers to anyone. I don't hide anything. You don't want surprises by me (gee, I forgot I've got a trade.....gee, seems I want to shop some more....gee, instead of putting $5,000 down, let's make that $500 down). I don't want surprises by you (oops, we forgot to add in the doc fee.....oops, we forgot that this car has after market tint...that'll cost another $250, etc).
That's how I do it. I'm simple to deal with. I won't take up a lot of time. It usually runs real smooth, if everyone knows the numbers we're dealing with. But, everyone has their own preferred way.
That's a long winded way to answer your question. Do I get a better deal that way? I know that I get a good deal that way. Am I willing to go to 5 different dealerships to see if I can save another $100? No....I'll waste that much in gas. And, I may or may not be successful.
But, on the Accord, I was able to buy it back of invoice. They declined my offer at first. Before I got half way home from the dealership, they changed their minds and accepted it. Usually, I don't go back for a 2nd "go-round". But, I like the particular dealership I bought it from. I like the people. They're "straight shooters" and professional. I ended up going back the next day and completing the deal (that they originally declined to do).
I've heard a lot of you guys complain about the come-on ads and deceptive advertising that a lot of dealerships use to get subprime buyers into their showroom. With Bill Heard dealerships shutting down everywhere, the real story starts to trickle out. They target subprime buyers, make a killing on bonuses and rate and take advantage of the situation just like the mortgage lenders did.
Since they cannot sustain this behavior anymore, (cut off from GMAC, AZ store had many illegals deported who made up a large part of his business there, credit tightened up, economy sags) they had to shut down. Perhaps we're going to start seeing an even cleaner auto industry that won't tolerate this anymore.
Another thought, a ton of the old-school guys are getting replaced. Perhaps with their replacements will come a still different way of doing business. Is it too much to ask for?
This industry developed the negative image about 20 years ago, during the 80's and more recently in the 90's. As a "new school" of people are getting into the business, the old deceptive ways have kind of phased out. I'm what you would consider a "new school" f&i manager, and hearing stories about how guys used to do my job, i can see why its got such a bad rep. Things, for the most part, are improving as far as ethical and legal practices. In a few more years, you probably won't have to worry much because most of the old business practices will be too out-dated. Now there will still be some bad apples, but thats unavoidable in ANY business.
I just saw a report that said the approval rate for auto loans has dropped from about 90% for all borrowers to 60% for those with good credit and 10% for sub-prime. OUCH!
How the heck are you guys going to push out the iron if Mr. 520 FICO can't get financed? You don't actually expect people to live within their means do you? :confuse:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
And therein lies the philosophy of my technique.
You've got to be a good poker player.
Good idea. But, how do you know if their numbers sold are above, or below average, for the week/month?
I remember a coworker got a couple a few years ago. Both of them had notebooks and were literally writing down EVERY word he said. They made three or four trips and asked him about a page and a half worth of notes each time. Finally on their last visit, my coworker pulled a miniature tape recorder from his desk. He told them to use that and give it back after they bought a car. They werent offended, nor did he intend that, they borrowed the tape recorder and bought a car!
These people were just so paranoid that someone was going to lie to them and were intent on catching my coworker in a lie. I really felt sorry for them because their attitudes wouldnt allow them to loosen up and enjoy life!
I just do some quick math in my head. It's easier if the dealership keep weekly tallies on their sales board, which is the vast majority. Some actually do it daily, which makes it super easy.
A quick question to the sales person (sometimes even the receptionist) should tell you how many cars they move in a week or month. Better yet, go to the service dept/detail dept before stepping into the showroom and ask them how many new deliveries they do in a typical month.
Take what you now know, look at the board. It will tell you if it's a good week/month, or a bad week/month.
Sometimes, just asking the service people if it's been a busy month, or a slow month for new car deliveries will give a bit of information that you can use. Service writers/ greeters are much more free with information than sometimes the sales people are.
Last bad one was a few years ago....at a Cadillac dealer, no less.
I appreciate forthrightness and honesty as much as the sales person does from their customers.
You know snake that WOULD be pretty funny just since you are in on the joke. And I bet that you would actually be out buying cars so it would really be funny. Its the people who holler that just because they want someone to kiss their butt for two hours while they wait for an appoinmtment or what not. The ones who yell that with no intentions of buying today. I almost feel like hollering back " I DO IF YOUR CREDIT SCORE AND INTENTIONS MATCH YOUR DEMEANOR!"
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Where is this board located? When I made my most recent purchase I visited a Nissan, Honda, Pontiac and Mitsu dealer and never saw any sales boards anywhere. Was this at the "King of Cars" store? Was there a gong to wack?
I would be embarrassed to ask who was having a bad month.
In the place where I sell if someone asked me what kind of a month I was having I would answer that I was doing a little better than "none of your business". But that's just me.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
In order to look at our sales board, a person would have to walk into our sales office. So far, I've never seen a customer do that.
I agrree with everthing else graphicguy said though.
We are not the prey of the car sales biz -- it's the other 99%. Making a few hundred dollars off us is better than no deal. There's more at the door who don't do it anywhere near this way.
I note that there are several other replies to your post. I haven't read them yet, but will. The suspense builds. . .
Ever wonder how people get this way? Some are paranoid, while others have been screwed and remember it really, really well.
Hard to tell the difference, I guess.
" car companies (especially, the Europeans) have tried desperately to market diesels in the U.S. Never have had any luck. I do remember my older sister "lusting" after a Rabbit diesel. I was just a kid, but I remember her bringing home brochures for it. How you can "lust" after a diesel anything is foreign to me. But, at the time, I guess it was supposed to be a "cool" car to have. "
A very valid point " clean diesels " in Europe get great mileage, yet are absent in the US market.
Diesel, the first crack at refineries is far more expensive that unleaded gas or rug. The refineries are pricing for consumption and the current marketing is to promote ethanol and fuel cell though they are not the most efficient .
How long ? How long must we sing this song ?
Frankly, I do not know.
Btw, $25 billion loan approved for intermediate three in the house, Main St vs Wall St is the new catch phrase and a populist refrain. Do they know the big picture, yes. Are they sharing, no. Global recessions do blow as do Hurricanes. Hoping that wisdom prevails. Btw how is the house coming?
For the most part, most sales people always tell me it's a "Good week/month" regardless of the success (or lack thereof) of the store in any given week/month. That's OK. I don't have any issues with that. Maybe it is, or maybe it isn't any of my business.
But, if they're going to post the sales board in a public place, I'm going to assume the store doesn't mind letting the customer know if sales are good, or sales are bad. They've got their tally right there for everyone to see. Sometimes it's right there on one of the big glass windows at the front of the dealership.
Most of that info comes from the service or administrative folks, though. They have no issues whatsoever in telling whether it's a good sales month, or a slow sales month.
I probably made my process sound very intensive. It's not, in reality. It involves a couple of trips to the dealership. I want to see what I'm considering to buy, anyway. More often than not, that initial visit doesn't include any sales person interface. If it does, it's a quick 5 minute conversation and me walking the rows of cars. I can do that in maybe 10 minutes on my own.
The 2nd and last visit, I'm ready to buy. It takes perhaps 15 minutes for me to get my figures together, at home. Maybe, another 15 minutes of phone calls to the bank/S&L/CU for rates, if I'm financing.
Then it's a simple "can you do this deal?" once I get to the dealership. That takes...what? 5 minutes? 10 minutes, at most? What makes it even easier on me, and the dealership, is if they've got up-to-date inventory status on the net. That way, I can tell what they've got that I might be interested in without even going to the dealership. It just takes a quick phone call to the sales person to confirm the availability of the unit.
I'm not out to embarrass anyone. If you don't want to tell me what kind of sales month you're having, fine by me.
This happened a lot of years ago (the ancient age before dealerships had their own WEB sites). I was with my "lil' sister" to buy her first new car. It happened to be a Honda Civic. I don't even remember the dealership. But, we were approached by what appeared to be a very beleaguered sales person.
That was made clear by his meek, but continuous questions about whether she was "going to buy today". He probably asked that question 4-5 times. Same response....."we're shopping right now". We were trying to nail down the color and options she wanted.
As we returned with the sales person in tow from looking on the lot, the SM was standing at the front door of the dealership. The sales person introduced us to him.
Sales manager shook our hands and said "hello". He immediately turned surly after greeting us. He then turned to the sales person and blurted out loudly...."you better sell something today, or you're in the unemployment line tomorrow".
I don't know if that was supposed to be a move to get a "sympathy sale". Or, if this guy was legitimately going to be fired.
But, after that little scene, we made tracks to leave the store. Didn't want anything to do with that scene. Nor, were we going to buy from a store who blatantly had little regard for their sales people (or the tactics they employed).
-they're dirty
-they make too much noise
-they're hard to start in the winter time (glo plugs, diesel fuel "gelling" in cold climates, etc)
Needless to say, the diesel products from U.S. manufacturers in the past did nothing to allay any of that perception by the public. Diesels in American cars have been pretty dismal in the past.
I do remember a time when diesel fuel was actually cheaper than "regular gas". The economic case is hard to make with diesels since the better MPG is more than offset by the increase in price of fuel, and sometimes higher purchase prices of the vehicles. Hybrid popularity here has actually put a nail in the coffin for diesels.
As much as had been said about new diesels meeting and exceeding current pollution regs, it's always going to be the economic factor that makes or breaks the segment. Right now, no diesel manufacturer can make that economic case in the U.S.
The house? Actually, it's going pretty well. Contractor has cleaned up a good portion of the debris. And, they're actually doing some framing on the destroyed walls. All that in about 2 days. Pretty impressive. It's helped that the weather around here has been good, too.
Got most of my "stuff" in one of those storage locker places. The stuff that was destroyed was cleared out by one of those salvage companies (actually, it was a stretch to call them a "company"....it was 3 guys and a big truck).
The real issue is getting materials.....more specifically, roofing materials. They are in short supply.
Still haggling with my insurance company, too. It's strange....they had no issues whatsoever accepting my premiums every year. When their adjuster came out (a real young guy, trucked in from MO), he said not to worry. They'd take care of everything. That's not been remotely true. I feel like I'm the General Contractor. We're haggling over what should be replaced vs what can be fixed.
Fortunately, I took a video of the outside/inside the house a few years ago and burned it to a DVD (something I urge every home owner to do) and placed it in my "insurance policy" folder. I also took a video of the entire house AFTER the storm. Pretty hard to dispute visual evidence.
In any even, keeping my fingers crossed, I hope to be in my own bed by November 1. It wouldn't surprise me if it took until Thanksgiving, though.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081001/bs_nm/us_usa_autosales_7
Ford down 34%
Honda down 24%
Toyota down 32%
Nissan down 37%
GM down 16%
Car loans being approved....down 30%
Actually, infamous Bill Heards was just closed in Plant City, FL (near Tampa). Yippey!
2018 430i Gran Coupe
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This too, will pass.
let's see
GM sales were only down 16%. Edmunds had predicted GM sales down 25%. Things are looking up for GM. They beat the pundits by 9 percentage points. "We're thrilled with these results" said a GM spokesman who requested to not be identified.
yeah, that's the ticket
Scary times that will be a memory soon. I only hope lessons have been learned by the people who put themselves and others into this position.
Hang in there, better days will soon be here!
This will change the way manufacturers approach the business. Yes, dealerships are closing and consolidating. Manufacturers are now planning to make fewer and fewer cars.
My real hope is that from both a dealer level and a manufacturer's level, that they don't go the way of the airline industry. That is, fewer numbers of seats (or units), higher prices, less customer service, as a result.
I hope GM's Volt is a tremendous success. I hope Ford's ecotech drivetrain puts them right back in the thick of the competition. I hope Tesla's all electric vehicles get traction (so they can subsequently license their IP to other manufacturers).
I hope this silly oil runnup (which has no sound economic basis) is finally stopped.
We've heard time and time again from some poster who wants to roll negative equity from their current ride, into the sale of a new car. I hope, for their sake, that the financial institutions say "no" to this. Although, that doesn't help the sales of new cars. It will help individuals from making costly financial mistakes.
It's not going to be business as usual, for the seller, or the buyer, that's for sure.
In the short run, there's a lot of stock sitting idle. I would think that there are deals to be made on them, until equilibrium can be restored. Just a quick glance through my 'burg and it's easy to see that all the stores, regardless of make or model they represent, are loaded with new stock. I don't see many people cruising their lots, either.
I totally agree with you on the GM Volt and wish I were at a point where I needed a vehicle as I'd be right there at the front of the line.
All the stuff I've read about the credit crunch, IMO won't matter too much for folks like the ones here that for the most part make sound financial decisions. We don't buy vehicles when we're upside down and don't finance them for 7 years. We may not get ideal terms like we used to but the money will be there and we may have to put up a slightly larger down paryment, nothing earth shattering.
Can't see that where I live. I've been looking at a particular used model that my wife likes off and on for the last few months. I even ran it by the "Used Car Values" board to see what it was worth. Volvomax said they were running about $6500 at auction ($1000 less with accident history).
When I look at dealer inventories I see this same car priced over $9K with accidents listed on Carfax. This is 2K over TMV and 1K over KBB.
I have to wonder, if sales volume is down, are dealers trying to make up lost profit by jacking up prices? :confuse: Seems counter-productive but lots of stuff dealer do confuses me.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
What I could see, though is jacking prices of replacement parts and service work, as people decide to stay with their older cars for longer.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Well, I wouldn't say that two billion people (India and China) moving rapidly towards better prosperity (i.e. more consumed goods, services) is "no sound economic basis", would you? There may be questions about how fast or how many, but it's just like US economy could not be stopped in early 20th century despite two depressions, three major bank runs, two wars etc, this process can't be stopped in long run. If just two out of ten of those two billions get a better meal, better house/apartment and better transportation, you have already more people than in US creating new demand that wasn't there before.
One should ask if it indeed warranted $145/barrel in summer 2008 (it did not), but if you have hope of $1/gallon gas and $20/barrel oil are coming back, I think you're sadly mistaken.
2018 430i Gran Coupe