Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

Stories from the Sales Frontlines

16656666686706712003

Comments

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    It's just a reciprocity of you telling them that because this car is so hot, they have to accept 3 grand ADP for it. By you I don't mean literally you, just a generic dealership.

    Some people may even see it as "getting even". I don't - for me it's short end of supply/demand stick being turned around. If not reasonable, you simply turn them away, just as most customers would refuse to buy a car with ADP. And just like dealers "can wait" for those who will pay, those customers "can wait" for a dealer who will cave. To extend that analogy, not every dealer would demand ADP, as not every customer would demand a car for free, even in if odds were in their favor.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    isell....I don't know. If I'm a General Manager. And, I'm looking at inventory that's 30-60 days old. And, I'm looking at the cost of carrying that inventory on the lot. It might be worth it to take a lower offer, than to wonder when the next warm body is going to walk into the showroom.

    Are you going to risk having that person walk out by trying to maximize your gross? Or, are you going to be upfront with them and state the obvious...."hey, things are real slow....everybody knows it....you want to make a real good deal? Now's the time!"

    You may have to drop your gross on new and used. But, making a sale, you're also whittling away your inventory that you're paying floor plan on every day it sits there. It's not like the the trucks filled with cars are going to stop showing up to drop off even more inventory.

    I know this is your bread and butter. But, if you can't get paper written on the reduced amount of people walking in your door, doesn't it stand to reason that you hunker down and say..."hey, we need to get real aggressive to move some merchandise?"

    As you say, maybe in the NW, things are different. But, how much different can they be?

    Just as an example.....I went to the Honda dealer last night to find out how to get my XM subscription renewed. Couldn't for the life of me get the radio to display the radio ID (radio wouldn't go to channel 000, where that info is displayed).

    I had 4 sales people and 2 service people huddled around the car trying to figure it out. Weatherwise, it was a beautiful night....around 6:30 p.m., when there should be some foot traffic in and around the showroom. There wasn't one customer in site. This is a high volume dealership, too.

    The entire dealership looked like a ghost town, including service. Only people there were employees. And, they had nothing better to do than to tend to my minor issue.

    In all of my years of buying cars, I've never seen anything like that.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    We aren't immune to the financial difficulties our nation is facing.

    It's just that some people like rubbing this in our faces and it's like they delight in telling us how bad things are and how we should be blessed to take their low offers.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Just like like some dealers rubbing hot car ADP and "mandatory" mop&glo into faces of their customers and acting like they're doing them a favor selling it to them. I remember in 2003 certain Mini dealership with every car having an expensive $800 scotch-like clear bra on every unit they had. On inquiry of "what if I didn't want one and ordered one without it" the answer was "You can have one without but we will still charge you for it".

    I'm not excusing this behavior at all. Getting even is a very strong impulse, as is getting ahead, profitting from inbalances, etc. Not everybody does that, but enough people feel tempted to make others miserable just for kicks and extra bucks.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    isell...no "rubbing it in". Just stating what I'm seeing. No business can survive by selling any goods or service at a loss. Simple as that.

    But, if times get tough (which the automobile industry is definitely experiencing), the people and companies in that business have to change. It may be a permanent change (which I suspect the lending institutions related to the car business are doing). Or, it may be temporary (as I'm sure the dealerships are doing).

    The fact remains, sales are down.....way down. If you've got a glut of anything (in this case car inventory), and a declining customer base (which the manufacturers and dealers are seeing), then bargains shouldn't be hard to find. Maybe instead of holding $1,000 gross, or even $500 of gross isn't going to move units. Maybe, you hold $200 of gross.....maybe $100 of gross, until you ride out the storm.

    That's certainly better than a dealership paying $100/mo in floor plan for stock that's slow moving.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    We do whatever it takes to move our product.

    Some customers are just loving this as they grind for the last penny.

    That was my only point.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    dino.....I was just looking at some gas receipts I had from last year. I file taxes quarterly. I've taken some losses this year, so (fingers crossed) I'll get a little relief.

    Anyway, while rifling through some of this year's expenses, for grins I looked at exactly what I was spending for gas this time last year. Almost to the penny, I was paying $1.00/gal less this time last year. Couple that with a world wide economic slowdown (including China). Add to that, there isn't as much political turmoil compared to this time last year. Add even more, the world's largest consumer of oil is using less......much less oil.

    Car sales are in a severe tailspin. Those that are selling are the more "frugal" models. Pretty soon, there's going to be a rush of technologically advanced fuel saving vehicles (the afore mentioned Volt) to add to the hybrid stables. Honda is already selling (leasing) fuel cell vehicles.

    It's difficult for oil companies to make a case for sustained record oil prices. Even using the old tactics of shutting down refineries, restricting supply....reducing stockpiles isn't working this time around.

    I believe (hope) that this is a headlong plunge. We may not see $20/bbl, again. I think $80/bbl....maybe even $50/bbl could very well be on the horizon, though.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Some customers are just loving this as they grind for the last penny.

    That was my only point.


    And I'm sure some customers come across as jerks when they're grinding for every last nickel as well as some sales people do with a hot new vehicle. I remember when the Xterra came out, the guy was straight forward with me, something like "It's the first V6 4WD under $25K, we're selling them for MSRP plus TTL, would you like one?" I was only "just looking" at the time and politely declined.

    But they very easily could have tacked on all kinds of required dealer add-ons and fees that would make me run the other way.
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    Just back from China and though sales might be off here China seems to be booming. Lots of Buicks over there, they love their GM's.

    It will be like cigarettes, sales in the U.S. plunge but the overseas markets more than pick up the slack. I think with all the new cars over there, oil prices will remain high - the demand is growing. Lots of Accords, BMW's, Lexus, Mercedes too, and every car is in good condition, no dents or rust.

    In Beijing alone, about 1,000 new cars (and about 500 used ones) are added to the road each day -- bad news for a city already known as one of the most congested in the world . By the way, no real rules of the road either....stoplights have some affect, but aren't obeyed completely, bikes and scooters can do almost anything.

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,198
    "...some people like rubbing this in our faces..."

    Some people are just jerks and you'll have them haunting you in good times and in bad. I've had salespeople over the years who I thought were a little too smug and imagined what it would be like to turn the tables on them. But to take your anger out on some poor guy you never met because you got offended by someone else is just childish.

    Cars bring out the worst in some people.

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    saw this the other day:

    plate issuing limits
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    Thanks Explorer very interesting - that scene is typical of the traffic everywhere you go. Many people were buying 2 cars during the Olympics so they would have an odd and even number license plate. A limit would probably be a good idea, but I didn't hear about it while I was there. People love their cars, and they have to travel quite a ways to get to work (difficult to afford a home in the city, that would probably be at least a Million dollars U.S.) so I don't know if they can decrease the number of cars. Closing half the dealerships sounds pretty scarey....just be glad you're not living there car sales people (knew I could get back on topic).

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Many people were buying 2 cars during the Olympics so they would have an odd and even number license plate.

    Reminds me of a business trip I took to Mexico City about 10-12 years ago. My host picked me up from the hotel each morning. Turns out he owned two virtually identical Dodge Spirits, one with an odd numbered plate and the other with an even numbered plate.

    Guess they have the same laws there, full-time, that Beijing was using this past summer.
  • duke23duke23 Member Posts: 488
    Sir, I write :
    " You haven't respected my posts so far, but I attibute that to a steep learning curve. As a seller of a Japanese manufacturer you will fare better than average but no one is immune.
    You wrote :
    "That really bothers me is when customers tell me how bad the economy is and why we should be happy to take their ridiculous offer because of that. " Oh you'll deal, more than you thought possible. Please respond in three months, I love to hear mea culpa's
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    driver....China'a kind of a different animal. The government is subsidizing oil to make it cheaper for the consumer. To my knowledge, they don't have any of their own reserves to pump, either. To my knowledge, neither does India. Both nations are dependent on oil producing nations.

    If I'm to believe the rhetoric, that Alaska and coastal regions do indeed have plenty of oil the U.S. is willing to drill for And that within a decade the U.S. will be a seller of oil to the worldwide market, and not a buyer, the economic impact would be pretty huge in selling to markets that are expanding, not contracting (like it is in the U.S.).

    Although, China is a closed society compared to anywhere in the West, if they're going to continue their economic expansion at the same pace, they're going to find they need to let more of a free market determine the price of anything.

    If they don't, and they plan to continue the expansion, they're going to have an even larger burden on their hands in managing that expansion. They may not get rid of those oil subsidies. But, at some point the cost will be so large to support them, it will become an economic weight around their neck, and they'll have to rethink those subsidies.

    Interesting about seeing Buicks in China. If I were going to pick a car that I'd want to manufacture in my country, Buick would be pretty far down on that list.

    Sorry hosts, rant over!
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Member Posts: 2,039
    Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think part of the issue with what Isell is saying is that we don't tell people their business, they shouldn't think to know ours.

    When we let people know about a hot car, that's because it's our business to know. When people walk through the door and seem to think that they know how our sales are going, then it is irritating.

    Customer. ''Hey, I know sales on your ABC Mobile are slow, what's your best offer for me to take it off your hands?"

    Please. Just make an offer on the vehicle and let's see what we can do.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    You're right on the demeanor - nobody likes jerks, period. But it's customer's money to spend, so IT IS ultimately their business to know what the sales are. They can use that information to get lowest possible price on the product they're buying. How they go about it, it's a different story.

    Revenge is a very strong impulse, especially in lives of people who have not much else going in their life, or ones that were hurt is some way. Just look what is the public stance on the bailout package. The thinking is I may lose a job in three or six months, my account may freeze, I may not get a loan for a bicycle, but I don't care - let's just hang the banker now and we all feel better for next five minutes and then we will see.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    Hey G.G. - Just some random facts:

    *China became a net oil importer in 1993 and is growingly dependent on foreign oil. China currently imports 32% of its oil and is expected to double its need for imported oil between now and 2010.

    * With automobile numbers growing at 19% a year, projections show that China could surpass the total number of cars in the U.S. by 2030. Another contributor to the sharp increase in automobile sales is the very low price of gasoline in China. Chinese gasoline prices now rank among the lowest in the world for oil-importing countries, and are a third of retail prices in Europe and Japan, where steep taxes are imposed to discourage gasoline use.

    *SHANGHAI, China — General Motors in China would make a great case study for an MBA student. While GM tries to turn things around in the U.S., its sales are soaring in China, where the automaker surpassed Volkswagen to become No. 1 in passenger car sales.

    *Today, GM China sells five brands — Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Opel, Saab and Wuling — more than 30 models with sales forecasted at nearly 864,000 vehicles this year.

    *Buick bucks the trend, theGM brand is No. 1 car seller in China. Take the Buick minivan. It was designed for suburban moms in the United States, but in China, the Buick GL-8 minivan has been redesigned for China’s business elite, with an oversized Buick logo, seat-back television screens and angled headlights to imitate the eyes of a mythical Chinese bird.
    NOTE: Chinese like to make a big show and Buicks are one of the bigger more excessive, garish cars around. Not my choice either.

    *Nearly 1 in 7 cars sold here is made by GM, just seven years after it opened its first dealership. The company recently added a second plant in Shanghai and plans to open 150 new Chevrolet dealerships,

    When the big meltdown comes...looks like there could be jobs for sales people.....in China!!!! ;)

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    moo...totally understand what you and isell are saying. Sometimes it's not what you say, it's how you say it.

    You can't ignore the obvious, though.

    Isell's Hondas, and your Porsches are good cars. That hasn't changed. What has changed are market conditions.

    If someone is brash enough to say "your business is terrible right now....sell me your product at a loss", I'd think you'd kindly show them the door. The stores, you, isell, and the rest of the sales people who frequent here are in the business to make money. Anyone who doesn't recognize that isn't a very good prospect in my book.

    You may view it as someone trying to take advantage of you and the store given the market.

    As a buyer, I view it as an opportunity to perhaps make a deal I might not have been able to make 6 months ago. You might not budge and say "I'm going to hold the same gross as I did 6 months ago". That's a judgement call on your store's part. You might even let me walk.

    That's OK! We'll thank each other and shake hands with no deal. But, if I were in the market, I'd be a little more aggressive with my offer than I ordinarily would in "normal" circumstances.

    One quick gander in the car ads of the local newspaper is pretty telling. There's a couple of GM stores who are going at it. I mentioned, one states that they'll sell any GM car $1,000 below GM employee price. The other store one ups them by saying they'll match that deal, and throw in a $500 gas card. That's got to be at, or maybe even below, their true cost on these vehicles. They clearly just want to move units, reduce inventory, regardless of cost.

    I know it's GM. But, it's the same GM that 12 months ago was holding MSRP on SUV hybrids. Even GM's premium brand stores, Cadillac, were holding MSRP on the CTS. The market is a far cry from that now.

    I'd say I could walk into my local BMW store, where they typically hold good gross, and make a fairly aggressive deal that I couldn't have made 6 months ago.

    I wouldn't be a jerk about it. I wouldn't even get into a discussion about market conditions, or the credit crunch. But, my offer would be lower. That's for sure.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Member Posts: 2,039
    That's a more appropriate way to address the matter. If your perception is that the market is very soft on the product you are interested in, then make your offer lower. If you are pressed for a reason on the offer, then talk about your thoughts.

    It is in the presentation. The only reason I commented on this was because I've gotten a couple of folks saying that here at the dealership. Yes, sales may be down, but our store is still doing well. Stats are just stats.
  • chikoochikoo Member Posts: 3,008
    >Interesting about seeing Buicks in China. If I were going to pick a car that I'd want to manufacture in my country, Buick would be pretty far down on that list.

    Every market has their own perception. In India when the pioneer of Scooters, Piaggio from Italy, set up their own plant, Nobody wanted to buy their scooters. However, Bajaj Auto ltd, which was already manufacturing scooters using designs licensed from Piaggio, was doing so well that there was a waiting line of 10 years to get one. Piaggio must have been shocked at this response.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Madman,

    Every once in a while an old '80s or early '90s 911 will pop up at my local Porsche dealer. They usually want something crazy for it. Do Porsche dealers typically take trade-ins of old cars like that? If so, do they pay anything near market value?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I agree. Coming in like a vulture immediately poisons the atmosphere of the transaction. To make it California Cosmic, whatever you deny to someone else you deny to yourself. In other words, you and the salesperson co-create the situation that you are in. Thinking you'll get a better deal this way may end up exactly the opposite of what you expected.

    Exactly. If you think times are tough for X Motors, then make a lower offer than you would have dared 3 months ago.
  • madmanmoomadmanmoo Member Posts: 2,039
    We rarely have vehicles like that on our lot. And by rarely, I mean that I haven't seen it in the year that I've been here.

    If we were to receive a 993 Turbo that is in good shape, then yes, you would see the vehicle bringing some serious money. It all depends on what the condition is and the rarity.

    How much would we put? Well, we're back to the book again. If it is a rare car, then we throw the book out and try to gauge the market as best we can. They may very well be making a killing if the seller didn't want to put the money into the vehicle for service work, etc. That's just a judgement call on the seller though. He probably didn't want to hassle with selling and repairing the vehicle, so he just wholesales it to us. Then the dealer reaps all the benefits.

    Profit is nice. ;)
  • verdugoverdugo Member Posts: 2,288
    Reminds me of a business trip I took to Mexico City about 10-12 years ago. My host picked me up from the hotel each morning. Turns out he owned two virtually identical Dodge Spirits, one with an odd numbered plate and the other with an even numbered plate.

    Not quite. In Mexico City the system is based on the last digit of your license plate (there are no vanity plates). So if your license plate ended in 0 or 1, you couldn't take it out on Monday, 2 and 3 on Tuesday, etc. It is in effect between 5am and 10pm.

    Now that there are newer cars with better emissions systems, you can get them certified so that this restriction doesn't apply to them -- except in an emergency when air quality is really bad.

    If you get caught, the fine is really high. Or in reality, the cop will just escort you to a parking garage where you can leave the car until 10pm and you just give him a bit of money.

    To get back on topic when the program was first implemented, car sales went up. And the weekends had the most traffic as 100% of the cars could then circulate.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    This one is actually ongoing. My best friend has been lusting after a Mustang Shelby GT 500.

    In case you've been living in a cave, these cars are at the very top of the Mustang ladder. They're true limited editions.

    These cars are relatively hard to come by, at least locally.

    I've only seen one of them around here. And, it's being driven by one of the Ford store's owner. He's been tooling around in it as his personal demo for many months. Of course, it's for sale. But, at $10K over MSRP. Mustang afficianados love these cars.

    When the owner got this car, he was thinking it would be a slam dunk to sell it over MSRP. Well, as we all know, things have changed. The owner held fast to his $10K over MSRP asking price. The car didn't sell. He kept driving it.

    Every time my friend approached him, the price was the same. My friend offered him MSRP, only to be rebuffed (actually, laughed at, at one point). My friend finally quit trying to buy it about a month or two ago.

    Well, wouldn't you know it, my friend gets a call from the Ford dealer's owner earlier this week stating he'll accept his offer for MSRP. Again, market has changed. It's now got some miles on it (owner says less than 1,000 miles and it's never been titled).

    My friend and I were talking about the deal just last night. Does he accept the offer to buy it at MSRP? Or, does he counter with something lower? It's a collectible to be certain. But, right now, from all appearances, the car won't move for $10K...even $5K over MSRP. Is MSRP the magic number? Or, is it something less?

    What would you guys do? Would you see it as an opportunity to buy what's certain to be a collectible car somewhere down the line for less than market value because of market conditions?

    This car will sell, for no other reason than what it is, and what it represents. From what I can gather, it seems this dealer waited too long to sell it. It's not distressed merchandise. The dealer needs to move iron. Heaven knows he ain't moving many Explorers, F150s and Expeditions (which he's got coming out of his ears).

    Personally, as much as I don't like "horse trading" when it comes to buying a car. In this instance, that's exactly what I'd do....engage in a little low balling to see exactly where the dealer's break point is. The offer my friend made months ago, that was laughed at, is now being taken seriously. My friend's feelings were a little battered, but as I told him, those hurt feelings won't net him the car.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    To me it's nearly the same deal. It's got almost 1K on the speedo. Those miles are worth money, that is, a deduction. Some guys planned to stash these cars with 12 miles on them, so the owner has devalued the car somewhat. Maybe not $10K, but definitely it's not a virgin anymore.

    Still no bargain. I bet we'll see more 1K 500s soon enough in the marketplace, and there may be already. Haven't looked.

    When the economy tanks, the first thing on the selling block is the "toys".
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    I won a car long ago. It was being held by the dealer from what I could tell. But it was being driven by many different people associated with the contest involved. It had many miles on it and I can't recall for the life of me how many now.

    I felt that lowered the value. Since it was a third car for me I didn't drive it much, but did enjoy what I drove it. Then I sold it to an avid fan whose first words on the phone were, "Do you still have it--I'll take it," all in one breath! No quibbling on price.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    That is a really great vehicle. If I were in his shoes, I'd take it for MSRP but try to negotiate some extra accessories or some free maintenance, big difference in the cost vs. retail price for those, maybe try to get an ext. warranty as well. But even if the owner balked, I would still take it as is for MSRP.

    And just to comment on the discussion about some people trying to "take advantage" of the low sales, but being jerks about it. I totally agree with you and Moo that it's in the presentation. Properly done, no one has their feelings hurt, and the worst case scenario is like you said, they shake hands and part ways.

    I do remember a line the salesman gave me once when we were far apart on a vehicle purchase years ago, "I have to feed my family". I chuckled and told him I'd give him a tin cup so he could stand on the street corner. So being a jerk does go both ways. And I did part ways on good terms, but it was the SM I shook hands with.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    "I have to feed my family". I chuckled and told him I'd give him a tin cup so he could stand on the street corner. Very appropriate answer ;)

    I'd never resort to saying "I have to feed my family so help me out here." To me it's almost as begging. What I make and where my money goes is not something I care to share in midst of negotiations, nor do I think it's appropriate. Either the deals is doable or not doable, either we need the extra $500 from you (customer) or there's no deal. Period. No need to point out why.

    One thing that irks me is when customers come and negotiate on a fully loaded model, and then if we're few hundred apart they tell me they can't afford it, and they need to pay their bills and so on and so on.

    Ok, if you can't afford it then buy a less optioned version. Tell me you don't want to spend that much but don't say that you can't afford it because if you truly couldn't afford it, you'd be chugging along in a 10 year old Tercel.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    shifty...imid...mike...

    I'm on the page with Mr Shiftright. Brand new with tiny miles, these cars were put into mothballs in the hopes that someday the investment would be worth its weight in gold.

    It's rare that any car is a good investment, with some, but very rare exceptions (thinking about some of the original muscle cars that I've seen cross the auction block like the original Cobras from 40 years ago...maybe an original big block 'Cuda or Challenger).

    This GT 500 may very well be a good investment, but not now, maybe not even in 40 years.

    That's not why my friend wants it, though. He wants to drive it. It's an '08. It already has miles, regardless of whether it's been titled or not. Apparently, none of the offers the current owner have been acceptable.

    Again, I told my friend to do some low balling....maybe start a bit under invoice of $42K. Do some "give and take". And see how badly the owner wants to move it. There's about a $5K swing between invoice and MSRP.

    What's the worst the owner can say? No?

    Besides, for that kind of money, my friend can score a new 'vette, under invoice, for about the same money, and get a better car.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    To everyone who thinks the credit crunch is a reason to walk into a dealership with a chip on your shoulder asking for a lower than fair price

    When things go back to normal and the car market gets better, is it ok for us to ask MORE than normal? Its the same logic, if you wanna pay nothing when the economy is bad, be prepared to pay more when it gets better.

    Traffic is down in showrooms, that's not a big surprise, it's this way every election year. My dealership isn't starving by any means, but business is down a bit. When we get the arrogant customer who thinks they have us beat because of the mortgage crisis, we simply bring them back to reality and tell them to give us a call after they go to 10 other dealerships and no one accepts their offer. If the consumer wants to take the "kick them while theyre down" attitude, we can play that too. Keep in mind we do this everyday for a living, the average person buys a car once every 4 years. There are PLENTY of people who just buy cars without dragging us over barbed wire, so we don't need the business from the over-analytical arrogant ones. On the flipside, the arrogant ones NEED us to buy a new car, so they have to give us their business....unless of course they become dealers themselves, then they can show us all how to really run a business!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    Well heck, that's what happens anyway! When a car is particular "hot" and is flying off the lot, dealers ask for more than MSRP. This is nothing new... see New Beetle and MINI Cooper for examples.

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
    Review your vehicle

  • fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    Thats a very very veeeeeeeery small segment, its barely relevant. How many different models are available from every manufacturer,and how many of those do dealerships try to sell over MSRP? Competition amongst buyers drive the prices up, almost like bidding at an auction. Buyer A offers sticker, buyer B offers $1000 over and so on.

    That was a bad example on your part, sorry.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    driver.....looks like demand for oil is dropping world wide.....

    Just saw this article.....

    The market was dragged down this week by a surprise jump in crude inventories in the United States, the world's biggest consumer of energy.

    The US Department of Energy (DoE) said Wednesday that crude stockpiles rose 4.3 million barrels in the week ending September 26, surprising traders who had expected a fall of around 1.7 million barrels.

    US oil demand sank 7.1 percent over the past four weeks compared with the same period a year ago, according to the DoE data.

    Analysts at Merrill Lynch meanwhile slashed their 2009 global oil demand growth estimates to 400,000 barrels per day.

    Oil prices have dropped sharply from record high levels above 147 dollars reached in July on concerns that demand will falter badly.

    "People are realising that the decline in demand is probably not just a US phenomenon," said David Johnson, an oil analyst with Macquarie Securities in Hong Kong.

    "I think people are just becoming a little bit more bearish (negative) over their outlook for oil consumption over the next 12 to 15 months."
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • driver100driver100 Member Posts: 32,590
    driver.....looks like demand for oil is dropping world wide.....

    Just saw this article.....

    The market was dragged down this week by a surprise jump in crude inventories in the United States, the world's biggest consumer of energy.


    I agree GG, I do think the world economy is headed toward recession if not depression and oil prices will drop, many have said about $80 a barrel would seem about right. But, on the other hand, I don't think it would be wise to go out and buy a big SUV right now (I am not even sure about a Shelby Mustang - it might become a museum piece - "Yup, son, we used to drive these in the good old days when gas was $2 a gallon".).....all it takes is one good hurricane, one terrorist attack, one flare up in the Middle East and we're back up to $150. Besides check this....and this is just one city....1300 new cars on the road EVERY DAY!!!!!!!!!!

    BEIJING, April 2 (Xinhua) -- With 1,300 vehicles coming onto the roads each day, Beijing has seen 120,000 cars added in the first three months of the year

    2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well that caller was obviously not me...I've seen too many "future collector cars" go into the toilet to bite on that one.

    Time will tell as we say in the collector car world.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Member Posts: 14,120
    driver....I'm the eternal optimist. I refuse to live my life in fear of terrorists, of hurricanes (although got a little taste of one, sans water, a few weeks ago), middle east flareups.

    I own a Tahoe. In absolute terms, it gets dismal MPG. Will that cause me to quit driving it? No.....it's a nice vehicle. I like it. While it's way more vehicle than I need (I got it when I was regularly doing some towing), I refuse to give it away based on today's market conditions. Like any of the sales people around here, I'll ride out the current storm. Hell....if I've got to drive it until the wheels fall off (given the robustness of these vehicles, that could be a very long time from now), then I will.

    As others have said, this won't last forever. You hunker down. Do what you have to do. If that means not buying rhe vehicle you want, when you want, so be it. If that means taking a little less money on the sales side, you do that. Eventually, equilibrium will return.

    Personally, I think the shake out isn't near over yet. And, I think once it is over, the entire oil and car industry are going to be much different. But, at least the car industry will rebound. If I had bought a bunch of future oil options a couple a few months ago (like many mutual and retirement funds did), I think I'd start to worry, however.

    I don't think demand will return to anything close to what it was, even just earlier this year. There are too many energy saving technologies in cars that are just around the corner. Oil industry got drunk with greed....moreso that I can ever remember reading about in history books (and there are stories filled with oil industry greed throughout recent history). People are going to lose a lot of money in the oil industry in the not too distant future.

    Americans, as we always do, adapt. It takes us a while to do that. But, once we do, we won't return to the same bad habits very quickly, nor easily.
    2024 Kia EV6 GT-Line AWD Long Range
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    No, it was a perfect example - just economic reciprocity at work. If a salesperson is (and many are, they really are whenever they can) more than happy to point out supply and demand on that Solstice, Mini, Fit, GT-R, or Shelby as justification for 3, 5 or 20 grand ADM and "mandatory" mop&glo, they have to be prepared to deal with the same attitude when tables turn and they have fifty Tahoes that nobody wants (or now even can) buy.

    It's like a bidding auction - just in reverse. Dealer A offers invoice, dealer B offers invoice minus holdback and dealer C can't take it anymore and cleans their lot before they close their business. Just the same. Competition amongst retailers drives prices down below their cost until a few drop from the market and manufacturers adjust to the lower volume.

    The market is brutal, but if you want reap rewards of unregulated pricing when times are good (i.e. no caps or controld on any car pricing - and I do, too), you have to accept possibility of turnaround in a way you may not like.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    I can appreciate your point of view on the matter.

    Like i said though, there are a handfull of cars dealers try to get over MSRP for, but damn near every customer tries to buy every car below invoice. The big difference being, customers will listen to the salesperson and pay over sticker, where as the majority of dealerships won't sell a car at a loss.

    Comes down to who is a better and more experienced negotiator. Just like gambling, the odds are always in the houses' favor ;)
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    You make one mistake (most Americans do) of thinking America is the entire world and forgetting there are 2 billion people who would also like to have a car, live in a better house, eat beef steak, not some grass soup, and have an ipod. Technologies behind the corner? Perhaps - so far we have idiotic ethanol mandate, which I call "starve the world so we feed machines with fuel that nobody wants". No, my friend - oil will crash and then come back with a vengeance. Just wait Chinese to lift their freeze on investing, Western Europe forget about Putin's excesses and you get commodities back on path to the sky.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    I think you are right when we reach new "balance point", AFTER a few dealers like Bill Heards will drop off and supplies adjust. For now, you guys will hit profit in just a few and far in between. Jobs will be lost, sales offices and lots will be emptied and boarder. This one is for real. Stock market has already adjusted with erasing most or all gains since 2003 on many companies and may go deeper than that - at least until China starts building again.

    BTW, that 5 grand ADM attitude was not common even in good times just because the car business is (thanks God) very competitive. Most people still had alternatives. As proof I submit to you some of my experiences from Tallahassee, where last year Mazda 626, one before Mazda6 came to the market (not a very selling model at that time, certainly not hot, actually it was getting frozen) had ADM sticker slapped on its display unit at the mall. I thought it was so funny, I had trouble breathing for a few seconds. Why did they feel they could do it? It's obvious. Small town market made even a dog 626 in its last year "hot car".

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • fandiguyfandiguy Member Posts: 101
    Like i said in an earlier post, i feel for people elsewhere, but we're not hurting where i'm at. Selling domestics in the midwest, for the most part, is a win-win during and "economic crisis" becuase everyone wants to support the US of A. Plus we hae a lot of farmers reaping the benefits of ethenal production. I grew up with a few guys who now farm and they make a KILLING with corn prices being where they're at. So it'll be awhile before things flow into my area, hopefully long enough for things to get better. Those of you who work for dealerships on the coasts or major metro areas, i really feel for you right now.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    I'm glad you're an optimist and feel it's doing well. I could just point to you on prices of Potash and Monsanto stocks (40% down) to see where agriculture is going. Add Caterpillar or Deere - two great Midwest companies and I hate to break it to you - it's coming. It's just not there yet. Don't think that Appalachians on East and Rockies on West are some kind of magic barriers that will stop it. It's just not the way it works. Things happen in different phases, hence at different times - but they do tend to affect everybody. I dare to say - if China does not restart soon, you guys will be hit more than anybody. It might be even that the Coasts will start recovering and Midwest will be just entering the bad times.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Remember when they told us that global markets would be so much more stable than domestic ones?

    Guess what.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >salesman gave me once when we were far apart on a vehicle purchase years ago, "I have to feed my family".

    While selling season tickets to a major team that came with the car I mentioned above, I had a call from a school bus company owner. His offer was embarrassingly low. He justified it by arrogantly telling me he was a "businessman" as though that justified his very low offer. I can't quote my response here.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    ". . .is it ok for us to ask MORE than normal?"

    Sure. Knock yourself out. You can want whatever you wanna want -- you'll get what you get. A product is worth exactly what it can be sold for. If there's some moron out there who has to have the latest & greatest & is willing to lay down and pay for it, well then, you two deserve each other.

    For the rest of us, not so much, I'm guessing
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 17,491
    graphicguy: I have a customer who plunked down MSRP+ $20K on a Shelby GT500 about 2 years ago. He's afraid to drive it (and park it) for fear of it being stolen, hit, keyed, dinged... He loves the car. It has less than 500 miles on it.

    moo & isell: That's really awful of people to do. Everybody thinks that other people's jobs are easy. They just don't care period.

    People need to do their homework when it comes to making a purchase as expensive as a car. You want to make an offer that's a little on the low side, ok it doesn't hurt to ask. If your offer is countered (or refused), then make a final offer. It is a business transaction.

    Moo, do people really expect you to knock off $15K off the MSRP of a Cayman or Boxster because they hear on the radio the ecomomy was doing bad?

    Salespeople, what have been some of the truly absurd offers you've been presented with since the economy has gone sour? ie: someobdy came in and offered $2K under invoice on a Civic that we typically only discount $1000.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD

  • duke23duke23 Member Posts: 488
    fandiguy wrote :
    " So it'll be awhile before things flow into my area, hopefully long enough for things to get better. Those of you who work for dealerships on the coasts or major metro areas, i really feel for you right now. "
    The Kübler-Ross model describes, in five discrete stages, a process by which people allegedly deal with grief and tragedy, especially when diagnosed with a terminal illness. The model was introduced by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross in her 1969 book "On Death and Dying". The stages are known as the "Five Stages of Grief".

    The stages are:

    Denial:
    Example - "I feel fine."; "This can't be happening."'Not to me!"
    Anger:
    Example - "Why me? It's not fair!" "NO! NO! How can you accept this!"
    Bargaining:
    Example - "Just let me live to see my children graduate."; "I'll do anything, can't you stretch it out? A few more years."
    Depression:
    Example - "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"; "I'm going to die . . . What's the point?"
    Acceptance:
    Example - "It's going to be OK."; "I can't fight it, I may as well prepare for it."
    Kübler-Ross originally applied these stages to any form of catastrophic personal loss (job, income, freedom). This also includes the death of a loved one, divorce, drug addiction, or infertility. Kübler-Ross also claimed these steps do not necessarily come in the order noted above, nor are all steps experienced by all patients, though she stated a person will always experience at least two.

    Acceptance, the sooner you get there the better. Man I hate recessions. Remember the tech meltdown of 2001-2003, i sell ? Take any deal. Lord if this doesn't bite.
  • wesleygwesleyg Member Posts: 164
    Long time lurker here, I have always leased GM cars for about 40 years, yesterday I went to my regular Chevy dealer, told him I wanted a new Impala for my wife, was giving back the 05 Equinox that was leased, and get me a new Impala.

    I was informed GMAC doesn't really want to lease me anything, This immediately raised my blood pressure, told him look in your computer, I've leased maybe 9 new cars from this dealer in the last 8 years,"are you telling me nicely to hit the road?"

    Well, that got a good response, he said we'll make it up to you. I found the Impala I wanted, he took off 2K for a former leaser to buy sales, 3K for mfg. discount, about 8% off MSRP, 2.5K for my GM credit card points, and if you add all that up, I have never gotten that much off any car I have EVER leased or purchased. Course I'll give them all 100% survey, and I know domestics are hurting, but how could they pay the rent with this deal or am I missing something? Oh, sorry, forgot to include that his is a new 08, not an 09 which is now fine with me.
This discussion has been closed.