Stories from the Sales Frontlines

boomchek

Ok, so I got a response from the dealership about the $16999 Grand Caravan.

Taxes in, out the door the price balooned to $23590. The salesperson also mentioned it's a brand new unit with no kilometers.

So if taxes there are 13% and we subtract those from the $23590, that leaves a pre tax price (with all fees) at $21062.50, a jump of over $4000 from the advertised price.

Even if the freight is $1400, and a doc fee of $600, that still leaves $2000 unaccounted for.

I asked that question and I'm curious as to what the response will be. Stay tuned until tomorrow boys and girls.

explorerx4

g guy,
it was over a year ago, so i don't remember. it could have been a hybrid when gas prices were high or a limited edition performance model like a madzspeed3 or charger srt8.

driver100

I asked that question and I'm curious as to what the response will be. Stay tuned until tomorrow boys and girls.

Great, can't wait to find out where the $2000 went. Maybe it is for compulsory mop n glo.

driver100

Four stores one MSRP and 4 selling prices.

Tremendously good answer sw. I hope murphydog gets to read it.

The question is, what does MSRP really mean....my definition it is the price the manufacturer hopes the product sells for....at retail.

mako1a

I have a 2010 Toyota Tacoma sitting in my driveway right now.
Dealer said drive it home and see if the seats are to your liking.
They're not and neither is that forward bent headrest (like an airplane seat).

It's a Barcelona Red 4WD with TRD and towing package.
4 door with 60 in bed and back-up camera. My first RV cam...kind of strange.
It also has 115 AC plugs in the bed and the cab. I like that.

I intended to trade in the (much liked, but 2 door) Solara.
It seems mom (82 yrs young) can't lift her feet high enough to clear the rocker panel.

I hate to disappoint the salesguy, but the seats are not much better than
the 4 Runner I traded with warranty left as my back could not take one more mile.

Solara, on the other hand has the best seats since my 72 Mach I hi back buckets.

I may look at Camry just for the 4 door aspect (if the seats are anything like Solara, but the truck is going back in the morning. 35 mile drive home did it for me.

Too bad. It's such a nice color. Mom and wife both said "what a pretty truck".
Mom even offered to use a step stool if I would stow it once she's in.

Young guy salesman was happy that we got along nicely and I told him if I buy
he would get all 10s on his CSI and he held out a fist for a knuckle tap thing.

Ramey Toyota in Bluefield, West Virginia. Nice dealership. All questions answered and no BS selling. Very relaxed.

lrguy44

The question is, what does MSRP really mean....my definition it is the price the manufacturer hopes the product sells for....at retail.

Once again your definition has nothing to do with reality. Actually, MSRP is a percentage above dealer invoice - usually around 9%. Invoice price determines the manufacturer's profit. From a financial standpoint the manufacturer could care what the vehicle sells for, they pocketed their money when the dealer paid invoice for the car. By the way, the manufacturer usually collects on the car before it arrives at the dealership.

oregonboy

Once again your definition has nothing to do with reality.

Rude a bit? Wrong a bit? I have to think that the manufacturer would greatly prefer that their vehicles sell at MSRP rather than at heavily discounted prices. :shades:

mikefm58

Just my opinion, but personally, I would rather go to another dealer if I wanted a Toyota, this just seems like a cheap trick.

I do exactly that as well. Any screamer ad with ridiculous prices, whether it's in any print or on TV, will gaurantee I will never set foot on the dealer's lot to buy a car.

"Where everybody rides". For any folks in Orlando, that is THE most annoying ad ever created. I would never do business with them.

driver100

....my definition it is the price the manufacturer hopes the product sells for....at retail.
Once again your definition has nothing to do with reality.

IMHO I think it has a lot to do with reality. The manufacturer builds the car and then hopes to make a certain profit on the car. Let's say the car costs $20,000 to build. Then they have to set a retail price that they expect or hope to get for the car.....all costs included, steel, advertising, shipping, etc. Then they assign a MSRP, let's say $25,000 knowing the dealer will be getting a 9% discount.
I don't have a calculator but 9% on $25,000 is about $2400 the dealer is going to get, and the manufacturer $2600. Obviously, the manufacturer couldn't care less what you sell the car for as long as they get their $2600 - but they are the ones that come up with a MSRP, and that is what they hope/expect the car to sell for.

driver100

Rude a bit? Wrong a bit?

Thanks oregonboy, I thought it was only me sensing a bit of attitude.

I must of said something really bad about dealerships, I think it started with the C4C thing.

oldfarmer50

"...he held out his fist for a knuckle tap thing..."

I had to read that twice to realize that he was doing one of those new handshake things. If someone stuck a fist up at me, my first instinct would be that he was looking for a fight.

A few years back one of my son's friends tried to give me one of those "jivey" elaborate handshakes where you start off like you're going to arm wrestle and then you flip-flop your hands back and forth. I thought the kid was having a seizure. Don't say it, I'm getting old.

I knew I was old when young women started holding doors open for ME. :sick:

Sorry to hear that you didn't like your truck. That's a good sales technique though. I'd have a hard time turning down a deal if I brought the thing home overnight. Must work often enough for the salesman to take the risk.

oldfarmer50

"..."Where everybody rides"...that is THE most annoying ad ever created..."

To be fair, I'm sure that everybody does ride. Just some of them ride out on the end of a broom or boot.

I'm going down to Tampa for Christmas. You've got me scared to look at any cars.

lrguy44

I apologize for being rude but being on this end one gets tired of the insinuations that we are all dishonest and that that the industry doesn't have a clue when it comes to pricing and if we sell at MSRP we are taking advantage of people. . I had a gritty day - a grinder who accused me of showing him a false small profit when I showed him my computer numbers. Any manufacturer (including publishers) have a bevy of financial wizards who calculate all the costs and profit required to keep the biz running. I agree, the manufactures do want the dealers to be successful so they can keep the market share up, the assembly lines running and the company profitable. I do acknowledge the screamer store tactics that are deplorable, but we are not all that way.
Again, I enjoy many of your posts and I do apologize.

driver100

No problem....I enjoy your posts and appreciate the information you share with us.

I really don't have much against dealers on a personal level.....I leased 3 Jeeps from a dealer and I liked that dealer and trusted them.

My last 3 cars were purchased from a dealer I am not completely sure about. For one thing, they used to have donuts, muffins, fruit etc in the waiting room.....now it's just coffee and $2 for a chocolate bar from a box some charity has left there.
They always take longer to do service than they estimate, and if I take the shuttle bus it is always more tied up than it should be.

I just had 4 snowtires put on and it only cost $60 to have the summer tires put into totes, and the winter tires put on.....which was a nice surprise, especially since it took about 2 hours.

I am not too sure about our salesman there. I don't want to get him into trouble but I don't think he is working for us at all. Maybe, that is a problem, because when I was in sales, I had to do what was right for my employer first, but I always tried to do what was best for the customer too...they were a close 2nd. I believe that if your customer is happy, everything else will fall into place, and my employer would be happy....and it worked that way. You're probably wondering why I don't try another dealer...this one is 15 minutes away, the next closest is about 40 minutes and belongs to the same group...at least I could get a different salesperson.

But, I find generally, there is a lot of mistrust when buying a car. Maybe it stems from the olden days. I have had some really sleazy salesmen over the years. But, there are also excellent ones too....probably more of the latter, but it is the really poor ones that make a very negative impression, that is hard to get over. One more thing too, I respect a good salesperson, especially a good car salesperson...when they are good they can help you through a big pressure situation....and you come out with a car that suits you and that you feel you made a good decision buying, and at a fair price.

lrguy44

I know what you mean about waiting for service. One of my vehicles is a 4Runner. When I take it to my local dealer for a LOF and rotation the service advisor is a friend of mine and used to work at our dealership. Well, I make my appointment and arrive at 7:30 am. I am lucky if I am out of there by 9 to 9:30. Over Labor Day my wife and I went to visit our grandchildren in Indiana. We decided to drive so our dog could come with us.. While there on a Friday afternoon I took my car into a large Toyota store. I was in a long line at the service desk so I figured I might get back to the house for dinner. I was actually worried because my wife and daughter were shopping while I did this and I was afraid of the money they would spend. The advisor told me 25 minutes and I would be done. Yah right I thought. 23 minutes later my name was called and I left happy. It almost (and I did say almost) wish I lived there.

houdini1

Well the good news for us old guys is that I recently read that all the young girls are going for older men....the bad news is that they consider an older man to be about 28 or so !!

sterlingdog

I don't know. I'm confused here (not an isolated case for me). The manufacturer has an invoice price on a car. They get their money before the car arrives at the dealership. Then why do THEY set the MSRP? It looks like the dealership would do that depending on what they think that they can get in the region where they do business. Also, if the manufacturer has their money from the invoice price, do they get more money if the car is sold at MSRP? Either I'm not paying attention, or I'm as lost as a convict. :confuse:

BTW, that was nice of you to apologize to Driver. That's how I like to see my students behave.

Richard

sterlingdog

Sorry you don't like the truck. I've seen that color and it is BEAUTIFUL! Still, comfortable seats are a MUST.

Richard

sterlingdog

"Great, can't wait to find out where the $2,000 went."

It, along with those 13% taxes, went for that public health care that you like so much. :P :shades:

Richard

sterlingdog

"I knew that I was old when young women started holding doors open for ME."

It's even worse when the check-out girls at the grocery store ask you if you need help getting your groceries to the car!

Richard

sterlingdog

Please explain something to a Southern boy. When they put your summer tires into totes, what are they and what do they look like?

Richard

lrguy44

Richard, the manufacturer sets the Suggested retail price to have continuity. The actual selling price may vary due to local market conditions, but identical cars are priced (both invoice and MSRP) identically nationally. The manufacturer actually sells the car to the dealer at invoice. Now the dealer may earn more via sales volumn and/or holdback, but invoice is what he has to pay for the car.
Thanks, like my wife says, sometimes my German heritage and Naval Officer background comes between me and better sense.

houdini1

I was just curious, since the advent of the digital speedometers, if rollback is still a problem. I have heard it is now almost impossible but was wondering what you guys think, especially those of you in the biz.

dino001

The manufacturer has an invoice price on a car. They get their money before the car arrives at the dealership. Then why do THEY set the MSRP?

Many reasons.

1. Marketing - MSRP creates a reference point for competitive comparisons - least at time of model launch. The car commercials tauting the product itself need something to use as a "price", if they want at least hint some value (only the top luxury market will use approach "if you have to ask..."). Of course huge consumer cash rebates by manufacturers kind of destroyed it, but still can be seen here and there - e.g. notice that the press in their test drives and comparisons will use MSRP as an actual price, even if everybody including the dealers and execs knows it will be discounted the first day out.
2. The manufacturers and dealers can use it to pretend how great deal a buyer gets when account all rebates and discounts (e.g. $15K for a CompactMobile may not sound as good as "get 25% off")
3. Financing - banks use MSRP as a reference point for LTV to determine collateral value. Lease residuals are always put as percentage of MSRP.
4. Insurance industry also needs some "starting point" to determine nominal depreciation.

oldfarmer50

"...I apologize..."

No need for that. Every business has it's bottom feeders. All you can do is set your own standards and stick to them.

Those screamer ads must bring in more customers than they chase away. They may bring just the kind of clueless customer that type of store wants. Most of the people who post here aren't mis lead by them and so stay away. That leaves the uneducated buyers who overpay for their cars. Pretty clever way of qualifying your customers if you think about it. Anyone who quotes the ad gets the high pressure seal clubbing.

oldfarmer50

"...The young girls are going for older men..."

Young girls 'eh? So where are all these 40 year-olds?

dino001

This time I disagree. MSRP has everything to do with what the manufacturer is "hoping". It basically a price under which, if it holds, everybody on the selling side (mfr., suppliers, dealers, etc.) will be "happy". The price that would generally bring decent profits at launch and blowout after couple of years. Of course competitive pressures and general economy do not allow that price to carry throughout the years, hence the discount/rebates. It clearly is a price they hope they could sell enough units to carry their operations forward.

The fact that largest players mismanaged that approach through almost ten years now of big cashback offers and the industry's profits got crushed is another story. At this point I suspect they may be inflating their stickers just for the sake of creating more room to discount right away. It's a road to nowhere, but almost everybody seems to be taking it. They conditioned the market to see big offers - Gene is out to the bottle now and nobody seems to know how to put it back. I believe only Subaru actually cut the stickers on the new Forester (it soared) and new Legacy/Outbacks (they're doing well, too). It may not translate as easily to the mainstream buyer, who has no money, no equity on their vehicle and trouble to get a loan.

oldfarmer50

Just saw the movie 2012. This board must be getting to me because while the earth was ending I was looking at the cars people were driving.

In one scene they are driving what I think was a Lincoln Town car limo. I had to admire how "Ford Tough" this car was as it crashed through buildings and jumped hundreds of feet in the air and kept going.

One thing I learned from the movie is if you are trying to save your life by driving a car out the back of a giant Russian cargo plane, don't pick the Bentley. :sick:

oregonboy

Way to go lrguy! It's nice to see someone "Man-up" and give an honest, unqualified apology. :shades:

None of this "Sorry if anyone was offended" crap that you so often hear from politicians and celebrities, as if it was the offendee's fault for being too sensitive.

houdini1

Same thing applies to them...they're busy going after the 50 year old men !!!

However, if they know that you own that big farm......

driver100

. When they put your summer tires into totes, what are they and what do they look like?

I never heard of them before either, but the dealer had a special last winter. Install 4 winter tires and put your summer tires into free totes...and in the Spring they do the reverse.
So a tote is made out of strong plastic....feels like leather that they put the tire into, zip it up, and it has a convenient handle on it so you can lift the tires around.
Tires and wheels are extremely dirty, so this keeps your hands and storage area nice and clean.

With our winter we have to buy winter tires, heavy clothes, boots etc, so I think national companies should pay employees more if they live in the North ha ha.
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boomchek

So this is the reply I received about how it went from $16999 to over $23k:

"On top of the Special sale price of $16,999 you have to + Freight/Air cond. Tax/ PDI /Adminstration/Reg./GST/PST = $23590"

So once again I emailed back to ask where the mystery $2000+ is going. I haven't heard back yet.

driver100

MSRP has everything to do with what the manufacturer is "hoping".

There have been some excellent posts regarding MSRP, and yours was one of them.

I have seen a subtle difference in ads from the D3 lately. Many are omitting the MSRP and are saying things like $9000 in incentives OR dealer discounts.

Ford has two trucks advertised, one is actually about $9k off in discounts bringing the price down to about $25k and the other is $6500 off in discounts to come out to about $18000.

I think they are getting away from listing MSRP for some reason. They probably realize it works against them after the promo is over, or no one takes it seriously any more, or just giving a big discount number gets more attention.

driver100

where the mystery $2000+ is going. I haven't heard back yet

Something is up...in the local ad the actual price was $18,999 and with freight, air, prep and taxes it came to $23k. Interesting to see if they get back. I still think it is $2k for Mop n Glo.

driver100

Just saw the movie 2012.

How was the movie over all? The preview scenes look amazing, if you like watching the world get blown up real good. I don't think we have been to a movie in about a year...there hasn't been much worth seeing.

We have a grandchild staying over so we rented Pink Panther 2 which she thinks she hasn't seen, and as a back up Christmas Vacation..which JM reminded me about. The good thing about the old movies like Xmas Vacation is they are so old the kids haven't seen them, just hope they think it is as funny as I do.

murphydog

good answer? I don't get it, some companies set price (Apple, Bose, Weber) some don't (Samsung)

No government intervention needed...

oregonboy

Christmas Vacation has been a holiday standard for my kids and me. It always surprised me that the opening theme song didn't become a Christmas "standard" for holiday radio play. It's a great song.

National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation - Intro

oldfarmer50

"...How was the movie over all..."

Special effects: Excellent
Story: Fair.

It stars John Cusack who I liked since I saw him in "Grosse Point Blank". If I recall, he also drove a Town Car in that picture.

boomchek

I haven't heard back since I asked what the $2k+ is for. I suspect it is mop-n-glo plus other fees.

mako1a

In the last episode 2010 Tacoma was in the driveway.

It is now back at the dealer with the not so comfy seats. Otherwise great truck.

Now there is a 2010 Avalon Limited parked in the garage. Deal done!

I hated giving up the Solara, but this car is even better.

This thing has not only heated, but A/C seats. I like the chilled butt feel.

jmonroe, I don't know how fast that Genny is, but I'll give you a try if you want.

This puppy will fly with little effort. Speedo goes to 160 and it may do it or close.

The deal. I arrived back with one sheet of paper. (sales don't like buyers with folders).

Paper had MSRP and Invoice numbers from Edmunds. We split the difference.

Solara trade never changed. Not that I cared. All I wanted to know was the difference.

Things I like: Pushbutton Start (no key and no keyholes anywhere),
A/C seats that are infinitely adjustable, great stereo, drives like a dream.

Things I don't like: Console without extra storage in console lid. Headlights stay on too long after parking. I'll get dealer to adjust that when I go pick up my shirts and hats.That's right...I grind, but not for dollars. I just like prizes. Sweet Car. Dave

houdini1

Congrats Dave, that Avalon is a nice ride. Enjoy.

grandtotal

My guess is $1000 for a returning Chrysler owner, $500 military discount and $500 recent graduate allowance. Or something along those lines.

explorerx4

congrats on you new car.
if you want to keep it, don't race jmonroe for pinks.

tidester

One thing I learned from the movie is if you are trying to save your life by driving a car out the back of a giant Russian cargo plane, don't pick the Bentley.

I suspect the Mayans might have recommended an Aztek. :P

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

houdini1

Ba Ba Boom !!

jmonroe

National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation - Intro

Thanks for getting me warmed up for the season.

jmonroe

jmonroe

Now there is a 2010 Avalon Limited parked in the garage. Deal done!

Congats on your new ride. Enjoy.

jmonroe, I don't know how fast that Genny is, but I'll give you a try if you want.

If you want to enjoy your new ride with the thought that it is a fast mover, don't do that. I have a cousin who thought his Avalon was quick until he took my Genny out for a test drive with Son #1's insistence. Now he just talks about how well his car rides.

I don't race (I just wax) but if my Son hears about this offer he'll be more than willing to teach you a lesson. He's still after me to take my car to the track he's been hooked on for a few months now. He keeps saying, "if you don't want to run it, I'll do it". Be careful about what you wish for. :surprise:

Again, enjoy but don't ruin the thought.

jmonroe

mako1a

Yeah, j I just read the specs on that Genny and it looks like you are correct.

However, I have a pro street Camaro behind garage door no 3 if your son wants to give it a whirl. It has never been down the track, but I'm guessing mid to high 12s. Mild street cam, runs on pump gas, bored and stroked to 389 CI. Can't be driven on wet or damp roads. Too squirrley with the posi and low end torque.

That's funny. I mentioned the Camaro to the dealer before signing. The salesman got all excited and that was the last I heard. He said what do you want for it. I said $5k.
It's nothing but a dust collector now since Arthur Ritis and Pinchy Nerve arrived making what used to be a quick launch into the seat more like a stumble/fall, but it's still tagged and insured. Heck I have over 5k in the engine.

I guess I should have looked closer at Genesis now that I see you have 17 speakers to my 12. We both seem to have rain sensing wipers and rear sunshade (I found it when my wife said "what's this button do?") That rear shade should block the glare from those annoying blue lights coming from behind. :shades:

imidazol97

>(I found it when my wife said "what's this button do?") That rear shade should block the glare from those annoying blue lights coming from behind. :sick: :P :shades:

driver100

Things I like: Pushbutton Start (no key and no keyholes anywhere),

Nice car, and nice deal. No stress, no mess!

How does pushbutton start without a key work? How does the car know who is in it?

Congratulations, and thanks for a happy ending sales story.