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Comments
Rocky
In the case of GM, I don't think that the rebates, etc. are the problem, but a symptom of the problem.
The reason that the cars are heavily rebated is because the current lineup offers poor value for the money, so deep discounts are required. GM isn't going to make these cars more desirable simply by getting rid of the rebates, to do that will just to push more volume to Chrysler Group and FoMoCo.
The real solution lies in GM making cars that are so good and desirable that no discounts are required to sell them, because the consumer is happy to buy them at somewhere near the retail price. But that can only happen if the cars and the branding are improved, and the current crop just isn't good enough to pull that off.
By naming Wagoner as its point man in the talks and reiterating support for his North American turnaround plan, the GM board temporarily defused speculation that the embattled chairman is in danger of being replaced by Renault and Nissan's CEO Carlos Ghosn.
Surely this makes it clear that Wagoner is digging in for a fight?
Rather than attack the proposal, Wagoner recommended to the GM board that he take the lead in studying the deal "in order to assist the board in its decision-making," GM said in a statement after the hour-and-20-minute meeting Friday.
Of course, he wants to lead the team for this. The last thing he wants is a third-party report to conclude with, "Rick, you gotta go." He wants to control the findings, and find problems with the Ghosn deal, even though Ghosn is clearly more qualified for the job.
If Wagoner wasn't under threat, he would be advocating closure of this deal so he could get his hands of the cash and what Renault-Nissan have to offer. Read between the lines, and this tells you that Wagoner is scared to death of these recent developments, and wants to make sure that whatever recommendations are made to the Board include keeping him on the payroll.
Of course, Kerkorian knows this, which is why he is pushing for an independent review that presumably either excludes Wagoner or else takes him out of a leadership position in reviewing the proposal:
Tracinda, in a statement, said it was "pleased" with the GM board's decision to open talks with Renault-Nissan but urged the board to review the deal independently.
"We believe that the upcoming meeting between Mr. Wagoner and Mr. Ghosn is a good first step," Tracinda said. "But a full and objective evaluation of this unique opportunity will require establishment of a board committee that receives independent financial and legal advice."
Translated into English, "establishment of a board committee that receives independent financial and legal advice" means "Tracinda doesn't want the defendant Wagoner to be the judge and jury for his own trial."
I guess Socala, I'm optimistic and very hopeful, I suppose.
Rocky
Simple answer: No, I don't. Mechanically, they are better than before, but not up to the levels of the transplants in terms of overall packaging and branding.
Great new stand out designs that are reliable and stylish wouldn't need this kind of discounting. But no, they need to blow out G6's, Impala's, Malibu's, Cobalt's, etc. if they want to push their numbers. GM sales are falling faster than the overall auto market, while Toyota and Honda are both gaining, which tells me that the cars aren't there yet.
How bout the Saturn Aura ? I personally think it's better looking than the camcord and could be a popular seller if the public gives it a chance. Really GM probably should of used a Chevy/Pontiac badge for it because of their being more dealerships available.
Rocky
Rocky
If the goal is to keep Saturn, then I'd divert the Euro-style products over there. If I was GM, I'd group Saturn and Saab together, and sell the Euro cars badged as Opels (maybe Opel by Saturn, or something like that, if you know what I mean), peddling them as affordable German-engineered alternatives to VW and the like. While they're at it, cut out the badge-engineering-gone-mad Saabs like this dumb SUV loser that they just released, and focus instead on developing a legit 9-5 that buyers might actually want. (They surely don't want the current ones.)
Is it any wonder many of us are so skeptical about news reports!
My summary:
Wagoner: "Let me cut this off at the pass so it doesn't waste your time, pardners!"
Tracinda: "The ranch owners better be sure the cowboy has more than just his job in mind."
Back to the story, here's something to chew on:
People close to GM say the automaker has already formed an internal task force to study the vast implications of a partnership with Renault-Nissan. Some members of GM management have privately expressed deep reservations about the deal...
...The GM board's move to back Wagoner was significant given the avalanche of criticism directed at him since the automaker lost $10.6 billion last year.
Moreover, the board took the opportunity to voice its confidence in Wagoner's plan to turn around GM by shedding 30,000 U.S. factory jobs, selling control of its auto-finance business and helping Delphi emerge from bankruptcy.
"The board continues to fully support the company's North American turnaround strategy," said Fisher. "And we encourage management to also continue its efforts to conclude a satisfactory resolution of the issues associated with the Delphi bankruptcy and to complete the pending GMAC transaction."
This is interesting. The board may see this as not only a threat to Wagoner (which it almost surely must be), but to their heads as well.
Remember that these meetings with Ghosn were held secretly, and were both spearheaded by Kerkorian and attended by his right-hand man Jerry York.
I'll bet that the Board members may smell a coup in the works, and may not like what that means for them. This leads me to believe that this is a battle that will be fought in the press, with Kerkorian et. al. keeping the ball in the spotlight for the shareholders and analysts to see, and with the Board and Wagoner trying to find flaws in it so that they can push back any threats.
Kerkorian will need to get Wall Street behind him, so that the Board has no choice and the deal can get done over Wagoner's objections. That may also include trying to build another sympathetic member or two on the Board, so that York can lead a coalition to drive the deal from the top while Kerkorian cheerleads from the outside.
GM is always talking about lowering the prices. Well that last lowering wasn't enough. And what of the extra this and that until the price is jacked? Side air bags not standard? Isn't that the new standard? Maybe it should be a delete option for a discount.
Nissan appears to be in a funk. Not sure if the new Altima gets them out or not. The new Sentra is so-so. The new Maxima is a small step before something really big to come. I see little progress for 2007. The addition of GM? Think about that for awhile.
I hear that Packard is merging with Studebaker? Oh, I do get my news a little late you see.
-Loren
GM shareholders are not a gleeful group right now.
The board might have a hard time winning a vote in favor of the status quo if it comes to that.
Lexus sports cars
We are gonna tell GM he is cheating on them.
I still thing the next Camaro should be smaller and lighter, with affordability, good gas mileage, great V6, maybe the 3.6 V6 out of the CTS, decent interior, side air bags, but little other fluff, for $21K. And it need not even be called the Camaro. Right now the problem is not smaller, and fun RWD cars are available in a coupe. If the Camaro need be a muscle car, then so be it. Make the monster cartoon look one as an additional gaz guzzler for $40K, for all the rest to enjoy. And please lower the price on CTS. A CTS with a 3.6V6 , now costs the same as the Chrysler Hemi-300. That's too much Bob, as they say on The Price Is Right.
GM seems to be challeging Kia and Suzuki for bargain basement pricing these days...wonder what happens when Chery and Geeley debuts.
I just followed a Cayenne with Turbo or something this evening with gaudy, oversized, over obvious wheels. There's a strange style ridge protruding along both sides of the vehicle, viewed from the rear. The car also is overly large for today's petroleum climate. Is this style? The owner obviously thought so; he had what may be his name on the license plate.
Others may disagree. Apologies to anyone owning a Cayenne Turbo. The wheels did not make this vehicle classy.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Rockylee,
I agree with you the Aura is stylish car, but GM missed the opportunity of offering 4-cylinder/5-speed in the car to challenge Camcord and attract those who want both the style and fuel economy at a reasonable price. Apparently, GM thought it better take on those popular four bangers with V6/4-speed drivetrain (haven't GM tried that too many times before?) Now, while i am very sure the V6 will deliver excellent fuel economy for a V6, it is still no match for 4-cylinders. Further, look at the interior of the Aura for obvious signs of cost-cutting so the base V-6 Aura is priced similar to 4-cylinder CamCord. We have seen that before from GM.
Here is a cool little Volvo the C3 Volvo This car should sell well. Now that back window looks familiar, to those who recall the P1800 ES
sport back sports car. I take it this car is to be in the lower $20K's ?
I think if the Aura wasn't FWD, it would not be so lost. As for offering a four bang, well I guess it wouldn't hurt. I like the idea of a value V6, four or five speed auto. is all the same to me, if it get upwards of the 28 to 32 MPG range. If not, it is best to start over, as a new car needs the gas mileage to compete. A five on the floor would be good too.
And maybe a tiptrontic auto. stick thing too.
-Loren
Dad and I talked again today. He said to be selfish, he hopes Ghosn get's the nod as CEO, because he's a big buisness man and even dad says he perhaps might be the smartest CEO on the planet and will secure funding of his pension by making GM profitable. The negative side of Ghosn, is he is a smart buisness man and will take most of the North American operations and send them south of the border and/or over seas to China. This is why UAW president (Getterfinger) is campaigning for Rick Wagoner, to stay as CEO of GM.
Bottom Line, it's a power struggle and we have front row seats to see if a meltdown might take place. Rick, is lucky he has the UAW in his corner because they are more confident about him keeping union jobs, than Ghosn. I guess they think they can't trust him since Ghosn has been fighting with the French Labor Unions at Renault.
We will see how this plays out. If Ghosn, does turn the NA operations upside down then I personally won't ever buy a GM vehicle again. Their are other factors like the scrap parts coming currently from Delphi, is enough to scare even me. Dad says it's getting ugly. I'll explain more over at the Delphi forum.
Rocky
Dad, said Miller is a idiot if he thinks he's going to get quality people on $14 an hour with no benefits and run 5 screw machines.
He said they are telling anyone with the slightest mechanically inclined ability to raise your hand and go run the screw machines. No new guys raised their hands. So they picked people and gave them (4) hours of training which took my father 1 1/2 years to learn and become proficient. Dad has a Class 1A license as a screw machine operator.
Dad, said what's sad is most of these guys never picked up a micrometer in their life and our learning how to read one with only 4 hours of training. :sick:
Rocky
IMO it does. The interiors look nothing alike
(Camry vs. Aura)
Dad, said he was okay with me buying a Volvo, if I chose to. :surprise: He said they are union made, and the money goes to Ford. He also heard they might end up making Volvo's here in the United States, and GM is suppose to make Saabs here also someday. He's heard Tennessee at the Saturn Plant. He also said the GTO will be assembled here in the United States sometime around 2009' along with a sedan. He said Holden will import them back to Australia from the United States.
I know I've went off in other forums about Delphi parts. If I was a buyer of a GM vehicle over the next couple of years, I'd get a extended warranty negotiated into your deal. Just a tid bit of inside information on Steve Millers new automotive labor stradegy. I personally see Rick Wagoner, if he still CEO of GM take Miller, to the proving grounds and whipping his butt if he ruins the GM turn around with bad Delphi parts. :mad:
Rocky
your killing me with that Lexus pic. :P If Rocky doesn't buy a GM product it is likely you will see me in a European car like a Volvo. I'm buying Grandma's 02' Olds Aurora, but probably won't get it until September since she's in Michigan, and the car is in Florida, currently. I also Loren need a sedan I think ? Well unless Momma lets me get a sports car.
I'd be seriously interested in the Volvo S80, but I'm sure it's going to be way out of my budget. I also am not sure what the residuals are like on em' either for a lease ?
I like Volvo's because of their craftsmenship and safety. I'd also like to know if the Volvo C-70 will ever get a high-performance "R" version with AWD which could replace my desire for a Velite. :surprise: The current S60 R is nice, but it's kinda old and tired like the Saab 9-5 and needs a interior upgrade like the S80 just recieved. I could then see myself driving one of them.
I still like the Acura TL and the Type-S might be out this fall. I've been on Acura forums across the net digging for info. Dad, is trying to get me to buy a union made vehicle and doesn't care if it's European, but yes he still prefers me to buy a Big 3 vehicle. I guess the Swedish union is part of the UAW "ties" according to him and yes buying a Volvo not only supports union jobs here in the U.S. because the money goes back to Detroit (Ford) but he also says those workers aren't slaves and get time off and have good benefits and wages. His quote was : "The Germans still engineer the best"
He said Toyota, gets their engineers from India. I guess that was the hot topic at work last week. I guess some of the engineers I guess applied at Toyota, but couldn't get in and they latter found out that Toyota was using India engineers to keep costs down. :surprise:
The bottom line is GM styling like Socala, has said has to not be a bunch of carbon copy camcords with chevy badges on em'. They need to mix modern new designs into the mix, and not rely soley on retro to save them. Using Opels is a good start, but creating new american designs has to materialize if they want to survive in this market. Throwing a LS-4 into a Super Lacrosse isn't good enough. I'm sure a new interior will help, but where is the RWD/AWD most of us would like ????
Rocky
He says where's it going to stop or end ????? He predicts within 20 years he might be driving a European made car, to avoid supporting communism/dictatorships. He says Mercedes Benz, BMW, Porsche, Audi, Volvo, Volkswagon, might be the last non-chinese/India made mass produced vehicles left if we keep on this current open-market trend. I think dad has some good points and after I thought about it for a minute, he isn't such a wacko for thinking that. :surprise:
Back on topic: Would any of ya'll buy a Chinese made/styled GM product like the China Buick LaCrosse ????
How about for $41,000 american dollars when the labor rate is $0.60 an hour ?????
Just curious.....
Rocky
I realize this board is all about style saving GM, but we all know that pales in comparison to financial survival in the short term. I still see GM as a small company, with only a third or less of the current line of cars. There are too many cars period. Too many, I should say in the FWD sedan mid-sized, and mid to slightly higher priced basic cars. Seems like something of deja vue all over again, as in the past too many manufacturers were trying to sell all too many cars, and many bit the dust. Perhaps stylish cars like the Cadillac, Corvette, and a couple Chevy cars is all that is needed in the USA market at least. Certainly the SUV and Trucks of GMC are important too. For smaller cars, why not just import the Opel and sell it as Opel?
This market share battle has to be a losing one. Now we have Hyundai making inroads, and I am sure others to follow. Say Nissan sales start to increase again, and Honda Accord sells well, that alone means fewer sales for GM. It is just a fools game, never won. With all the brands of Ford now, they certainly thought they would rule the World - Not! Let Toyota sell more cars, as they are making a profit doing so. GM needs first to survive, then to make a profit on whatever sells for a price that will stick.
I am 100% sure they are painted into another corner come close-out time for cars. If they do not offers thousands off now, they will run out of places to park dusty cars.
-Loren
Now, under the radar, like GM engines made in China, then sold here, may be possible. Yes, I could see entire cars, with a GM label possibly selling here. Possible, is not probable. IMHO, I would not be buying into a car to save a few bucks knowing other cars, value as criteria are available, like the Hyundai. Aside of politics, and how a country treats their citizens, one must realize this is a crowded market place now for cheaper cars. I am sure China realizes this is an uphill battle. They may settle first for being parts suppliers, like Delphi/China. Are they in China?
Never say never though as things change. Current situations, as they are, I am thinking NO, to any major selling of whole China cars in USA. Can they build high tech and low tech products - well yes, they seem to be able to produce some good products. So many other issues come to play though.
-Loren
new hires get $14 a hr. with ZERO benefits. My Step-dad and aunt are both current employees under this "limbo". Rumor is atleast 6-8 months before they will get any sort of benefits, and the rumor is they might be so expensive that some won't beable to afford them anyways. :sick:
I don't see a Delphi strike happening unless Miller lowers wages further and offers little benefits. Delphi NA will be gone by the next decade IMO.
I agree GM might become smaller, but only here in NA. I see all domestic and Asian company's going to China/India to assemble/build automobiles for our consumption. I won't be a buyer and that's a guaranteed. I would spit on a Chin-E made Buick Velite Roadster.
Rocky
We will see very soon how Geely, Chery, Brickland, etc etc etc does starting this fall I think. :surprise: I hope you are right Loren on your assement of our beloved buying public. Like I said before I will buy a European made car like a Benz, before I'll support those folks.
Rocky
We have our own Holden factories.
We have never imported our "main" Holden (from the letter Holdens, to the Kingswood, to the Commodore, they've all been Aussie-made)
As slightly disappointing as this is, we probably wouldn't be receiving any other Zeta platformed cars.
The current Zeta platform originates from here. Also, the new GTO will most likely have a different shell than our next Monaro.
Hope I didn't sound like I was rippin' into ya, but it seems your wires were a bit crossed with that statement.
As for Union or not, I doubt there are any car being made by slave labor these days. WWII is over now. Seems to be people happily working within and without the ranks of the Unions in the car building business. Which ones build better cars is something I don't have data on, and I doubt there is reliable, non-biased data on. There can be debate on what is good for the economy, and well a lot of issues in regard to Union vs. Non-Union made products. After awhile it goes in circles, and accusations are made, with claims of this and that, and people get hot and bothered, yet everyone ends up on the same side of the issue as before the debate started.
So back to style. Over the years a lot of design works have come out of California. I believe the Celica was born here in the state. For design work on cars, I take it they will always employ around the world. Detroit used design studios back years ago, did they not, for say GM and Fords? I think I recall at least GM using California designs.
-Loren
I don't know about that, Rocky. Under Ghosn, Nissan has added plant capacity in the US, not taken it away. Of the two CEO's, it has been Wagoner who has been cutting US jobs, while Ghosn has been increasing them.
Ghosn worked with the French unions, and Wagoner has already cut the GM workforce, so I can't see why Ghosn would be cutting more jobs in the US. Given what he did at Nissan, I would assume that his initial agenda would be product development, not offshoring jobs.
One negative about the Nissan-Renault deal is that the offer price is below the stock's market price, so the GM Board members may be simply leaking hints of discontent to the press in order to get a better price. In these sort of circumstances, you would expect the bidder to pay a premium, not get a discount, so perhaps we're just seeing the groundwork for a haggle.
Rocky
Do see parts though -- lots of parts.
The old how many parts are US in a Camry, vs. say the Impala? I don't know. Do know the Camry is built here. Strange world indeed in the that the NASCAR with the name Camry is made in USA, and the other three are Canada and Mexico. Oh well, it is all in the Americas
-Loren
=good night, from the left coast=
Rocky
I'm just saying look for cars to be built in China if the Chinese domestic manufactors are able to engineer cars as good as Hyundai/Kia. :P
Rocky
We will see soon enough where GM cars are getting engineered, styled, etc. I just hope Socala, is right about Uncle Carlos Ghosn.
Rocky
Rocky
Rocky
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006607080386
Rocky
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060707/BUSINESS01/607070344/10- 14
Rocky
A GREAT must read article.
Rocky
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060707/BUSINESS01/607070343/10- 14
A good article !
Rocky
Rocky
From July 1st.
Rocky
Give the Aura some of that stuff, and good styling, go back to the "different kind of car" thing, and mean it, and Saturn can live. Oh, and drop the current Saturn models. Every one of them.