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Comments
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Me likes it a lot!
(Though, it better have at least 200HP and a 6-speed gearbox/transmission)
I wondered what the hell was going on with the negative switch to these wierd clunky controls - then I read that Ford had started buying them from Delphi. No doubt, they beat Visteon's bid, and I can see why.
One of the biggest complaints I have about today's GM cars, are the crappy IMO interiors. The switches are ugly, don't feel good when you use them, the plastics are black all over and cheap looking. Rubbery in places. Ford Interiors generally pleased me more - so do Chryslers.
If Ford is going to buy Delphi crap to save a buck, I won't hang around long. It's one of the reasons I didn't buy a Town Car - not that the interiors of the Lexus are beautiful, but the quality can be felt.
So, cost seems to prevent Quality all over American industry, doesn't it?
Here's a thought. While I don't think this is a positive thing, getting Indian Engineers to replace Japanese workers - at least not for Japan, what Toyota is obviously doing, is looking out there, and seeing that the Koreans are starting to eat some of their lunch already - the Chinese are getting rolling now so to speak - so, if India is now developing competent engineers who are willing to work in the Japanese culture, and adopt Kaisen and Ichiban as their culture - bring them in now, so that they can compete with China and India building their cars in the future.
Interestingly, and you may want to tell Dad this, Rocky, if he hasn't already heard, Ford is hiring all the Japanese engineers (young, starters) they can find now. I have friends in Dearborn, and their son-in-law is Japanese, a young engineer, and is working for Ford in the seat division. He says if you're Japanese, an engineer, you have a job at Ford right now. Probably too little too late, but clearly they see something in getting some global talent in there.
I don't know, Lincoln has trashed the interior of most of their models now, the Town Car is the worst. Perhaps they are making them look and work like Ford wants them too, but I don't like 'em.
Thanks for letting me know. Which looks better '65 or '69?
I would say '69, but I like the looks of Plymouths and Dodges more in those years, although mechanically probably the GM's were much better.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Gotta agree with you there. The Suburban we rented from Hertz was pathetic....gray plastic made from the cheapest of materials, and no thought about ergonomics or placement and size. The column mounted gearshift leaver looked like an IKEA screwdriver made out of black pipe metal. Door handles were the same. I don't get it!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
IMO I get this feeling that American cars are being built by the lowest bidders. As the squeeze is put on suppliers the quality becomes less important...the main factor is cost. This is not good in the long run and is another reason for diminishing sales.
Of course all companies have to be competitive, but reducing labor costs doesn't impact the quality of the car, when you start saving by using the lowest bidder - quality suffers.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Rocky
And what if they buy their stuff from Delphi????
No Comment !
But NV, I don't completely agree. You take the Japanese nameplates, they have traditionally been somewhat boring and not offensively styled, but they excelled in few key areas: reliability, ergonomics, powertrain smoothness, and for Honda especially, refinement of interior controls.
You take the European makes -- they haven't had a lot of reliability - they've often been worse than Ford and GM -- yet they still have good reputations. Why is that? Well, there's a driving experience there - outstanding handling, smooth power, and recently -- excellent interiors - VW and Audi especially.
I've owned both Japanese and European nameplates. In my 1992 Accord I had a very reliable car that handled pretty well, was smooth and refined, and had a pretty nice interior. In my 1998 Audi A4 I had a somewhat less reliable car that cost a fortune to fix once it was out of warranty -- but you know what? It handled so well, it was so smooth, it was so nice inside that I still LOVED that car. It inspired passion.
When I look at the GM offerings, I want at least SOME of the features that make me desire a car:
1- Styling
2- Reliability
3- Smoothness and refinement
4- Interior quality and ergonomics
5- Handling
In my Honda I got 2, 3, 4, and some 5.
In my Audi I got 1, 3, 4, and 5.
If I look at a Cobalt or Malibu, I get partial 2 -- and that's about it! Not enough reason to buy them. Even styling alone - which you say the domestics have had (but I disagree, especially with GM) is not enough.
Hyundai has gone from the late 1980's with a reputation and reliability even worse than GM's to a very impressive performance recently, especially with the new Sonata. GM is making some efforts, but they don't seem to me to be very aggressive. Their attention to adding even more nameplates and spiffing up the big iron has totally neglected the highly competitive sedans area.
I just don't understand why, flush with cash in the 1990s, they didn't put some effort into some modern 4 cylinder drivetrains and sedans.
It already takes a lot of persuading to get people to buy Korean cars, China will be a tough sell. Mexico must be a cost efficient place to build cars. Look at the new VW Rabbit, selling for $15K with side air bags, and all the goodies. Hope they got their act together on electrics and such. VW would be selling a lot more cars once they solve the gremlins in certain areas of their cars. Assembly doesn't seem to be the problem. Components may be. Ford Fusion has a good initial quality report, as does Chrysler PTs made in Mexico.
I am pretty sure this decade and next will be pretty low sales for China made cars in the USA. But who knows. GM is but a faded icon, like the little blue ones on the board here.
-Loren
So, cost seems to prevent Quality all over American industry, doesn't it?
Apple Computer seems to be successful in charging more for premium quality. They have that reputation and it shows in their products.
If GM wants to mount a comeback, then it needs to excel in several of these areas, not just one or possibly two. There's no reason to buy its products when a competitor can do a better job.
Like the car industry, the margins got slimmer for Apple after the advent of the Windows computers. And while they still command more money for an Apple, I doubt they are making like 50% or 40% on them. Yeah, they are successful in charging more, as the brand was never seen as less than the rest. Japan and German makes just hammered GM on down to the point that it is hard to ever sell GM again as a premium car. That said, I guess people pay premium for Cadillacs and GMC Denali. They'll always find some people out there. I see cars like the CTS as very good, but nothing worth a huge premium over say the Chryslers, or Toyotas. With its RWD, it competes well against say buying a Camry or 300, yet the cost is too high.
-Loren
I'm surprised that we've seen as many as we have, except for the fact that a lot of M&A deals are driven by dreams and ego, rather than logic.
The run of automotive M&A deal over the last decades or so have generally been failures: FIAT, Saab and Rover come to mind as obvious examples of disastrous deals. Among those that have worked, it seems that VW might have been the most successful (so far, things seem to be working with Skoda, SEAT, Lamborghini and Bentley), but seem to have come at the expense of their main brand. Perhaps a matter of too many lofty goals taking focus away from the bread-and-butter. Wisely, the large Japanese automakers such as Toyota and Honda have avoided these acquisition strategies, which has been to their benefit.
If the GM deal can be operated largely as a private equity investment play, in which Ghosn infuses cash and expertise in exchange for a chunk of the upside created by a new-and-improved GM, then it makes sense because the focus will be on making GM profitable with rationalized costs and better products.
But if the goal is to start merging operations and platforms on a broad scale, then I would expect it to fail, because combining corporate cultures and strategies often costs more than it saves. In my mind, the key is to first build GM to stand on its own two feet, and then later examine whether anything can be gained by combining their businesses. An investment would be easier to manage, and therefore get better results, than would a marriage.
And besides what is GM bitching about? It's difficult to feel sorry for them when they sell tons of SUVs in the U.S.A. and sell vehicles in every modern industrialized nation in the world. On top of this they own large holdings/shares with foreign automakers such as Holden of Australia.
Perhaps if they'd stop appointing so many fat arrogant bosses that don't know anything, start making quality automobiles, and stop offering these expensive, over-justified benefit packages to their employees, their woes would go away. They have far too much overhead and like I said before have not paid attention to quality to the point where it became downright non-existent and dreadful; Case in point--> the Cadillac Catera, Chevrolet Citation and Pontiac Fiero. Those three were automobile "black clouds" or omens. :sick:
For far too many years they have built their cars defectively and without and quality involved and built their cars as if it was still 1956 as opposed to 2006.
2- Reliability
3- Smoothness and refinement
4- Interior quality and ergonomics
5- Handling
Your list and statement implies that _no_ GM car has any of these qualities. Now that's a stretch. Many of these are in the eye of the beholder, as are they for foreign brand cars. Do you mean the Civic that a friend test drove has some of these qualities? I don't think it had many. Same for the Corolla she bought? Do the Camry 07 buyers have these in their transmissions with flare and hesitation?
Frankly I have those in my LeSabre, perhaps not to the point that you might prefer in your ideal car, but to the degree that I love driving it. These are subjective. GM cars have some or many or all of these. But you're saying not in your eyes.
>some effort into some modern 4 cylinder drivetrains and sedans.
I'd have to agee about 4-cyl drivetrains.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Thanks, Loren
I agree with almost everything you stated and you did it in a very brief but precise way. In the latest JD Powers survey Lexus wa first, followed by BMW and then Mercedes.
I think the German manufacturers were so embarassed they worked on relibility issues.
You're right though, people will put up with a few flaws if you have something going for you, but they won't put up when there is nothing in your favor. I don't think Americans want to buy foreign cars....they just want the best car they can afford.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I am not so sure. That Cheri sports car looked pretty good...if the price is right and they are built right,
Who thought Americans would be driving Korean cars!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I think if I was going to take sides on the issue, in support of GM, I would concentrate on some more current data since 2001 showing some improvement, and not mention a comparison to an Accord, Camry, Civic, or Corolla. I doubt the facts will be in your favor. Actually, it will eat up GM to go head2head, as they like to do. Best to try and make new, and more exciting cars, with American style, RWD when possible, and give a better warranty, if they want new customers. Forget this obsession with trying to be other makes of cars. The Corvair after they saw the VW, then all these other so called Japan beaters. What they did best were American cars. The Olds. Cutlass RWD was perhaps the last hurrah, as mechanics loved them for reliability, they had style, and class. Sure, some great years money wise since, but it was downhill for style and reliability as time went on. Catches to up you someday ya know! The CTS and perhaps the Lucerne is more on track to the old GM as style leaders, with American purpose cars.
-Loren
2- Reliability
3- Smoothness and refinement
4- Interior quality and ergonomics
5- Handling
Sorry Imidazo, you probably might have one of those in your LeSabre. Possibly reliability.
I am not putting the LeSabre down, but in no way does it have the 1)styling of an Accura TL or Audi, or M3 or C Class, 2) doubt if it has the reliability of a Lexus, Camry or Honda, 3)Smoothness and refinement of a Lexus or Mercedes, 4)Interior of a Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, Infinity, Accura, and it for sure 5) doesn't have the handling of any of the above and many more to numerous to mention.
When I only owned GM's I would have said the same as you, but once I drove a __________ I realized there is a whole new world out there. :surprise:
Few cars are truly ugly so IMO most GM's have OK styling, but OK just isn't good enough in this day and age when there are some great designs out there.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Sat in one of those Rabbit (alias Golf coupe) and it all feels right, though my knee hit the steering column. I may try a lower seat position, though too low and I feel like I am in one of those too tall door cars - you know driving from within the bathtub. I like the seat jacked up a bit, and the telescopic steering column. Well thought out cars, though the bottom of the steering column is rounded and not flat, and due to a rather fat diameter a bit more likely to hit ones legs. May do a test drive and change the seat to lowest, without bathtub effect to see how it works.
Or before test drive, wait and see if the new cars are better for reliability. The look and feel of VW has always been great. But the electrical problems, oil consumption and windows falling out, was not as enticing. Are those days gone???
My last German car was a GM. The Opel Manta Rallye of '73. Ahhhh, they look good today!
-Loren
The Lucerne? i have to respectfully disagree. I studied one parked across the street from the outdoor cafe I was in. From the middle post between the doors, 60% of the car is behind that point. That looks rediculous unless your a real big rear end Kind of guy!!!!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I'm inclined to agree with you, but honestly, it doesn't matter what you or I or what anyone else posting here believes, whether pro or con.
The thing that counts is what consumers are buying. And they are buying more and more Hondas and Toyotas, and fewer and fewer GM products.
The sales figures tell you what the consumer thinks. You can serve them to your benefit, or ignore them at your peril. If GM continues to ignore them, then I know whose stock that I'd be buying.
Different people want different things. It grows wearing to continually have stereotypes applied. If I had to buy a new car tomorrow Lucerne would be a first stop for a CXL or CL test drive. Then Camry and Accord (again). But Camry looks as bad as 2003 Accord did.
Friend has a VW jetta. I doubt he'd buy another VW. It's about a 2002. Too many problems.
Which GM? All GMs? Broad brush. Do they think only of their concept of worst of GM? CTS? STS? Lucerne? I understand people have their own favorite and then all others are compared to that perfect car. It's like high school sports stars remember themselves ever on. Mine would be 77 Cutlass Supreme.
>it will eat up GM
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My point exactly. It's all subjective. I don't want the Accords I've driven with the rough ride and wandering (2003). So Handling for them is 0, right? Probably not. Others might give that an 8 out of 10.
My point is none of these criteria are black or white. When I was 25 my values on each might have been different as to which car did what. I don't have that problem now.
Your opinion may vary, and that's fine, but realize others have a different criterion and they're not dumb or stupid.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Something like this one:
http://mclellansautomotive.com/photos/B19230.jpg
Pretty classy for its time. Smooth, and fine ride.
Sort of the last of the poorer mans Cadillac, or the
doctors car image.
The last of the LeSabres? Well, I guess they are
actually pleasing enough to the eye, but still don't
really stand out as that much of an upper class to
say the Chevy. One could make the argument though
as to it being somewhat stylish -- it just a rectangular
blob like a current Malibu. Maybe rate this one as a
kinda stylish and sort of reliable. Kind of a workhorse,
and pleasing enough car for the masses, which wins
not a single category when compared to other cars.
Oh, but perhaps that is the problem.
GM designers had the old platform to work with on the
LaCrosse, and did a fairly good job of it style wise, and
handling wise, since what they had was somewhat old.
And the Lucerne as a modified DTS is a pretty good
effort. They are trying at least. Less bland -more bling.
-Loren
I hear very few problems from people who have Honda/Camry's, and of course there will be some problems.
Haven't heard of many class action law suits such as the ones GM has about the seals.
Jetta's have their problems but the driving experience is great for a small thrifty car, and they think enough of their customers to put in all the airbags and ABS. GM leaves out those items to save money.
I think you have to test drive a BMW 3 series, Mercedes C class an Audi 3 or 4 or a Lexus or Accura or Maxima and then let us know how they compare. I guaranty you will not be so sure about the LeSabre.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Now which is the ONE perfect car. There are a whole bunch mentioned above. You need to state ththe _one_ car that is all five criteria's best solution so the others can disagree or agree because of different things it may do? You're doing the subjective thing but you're also picking an item from your opinion of different cars for different things. That's okay, but it's back to subjectivity.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I could go on and argue about whether your are right or wrong, but the fact remains (shown by the declining market share) that most of the general public agree with my statements. I doesn't really matter if you disagree, because until GM can improve their perception of these qualities then they're on a fast path to a bad place.
I see the Civic as having more styling than Cobalt, more reliablility, more smoothness and refinement, more interior quality. So why would I buy a Cobalt?
You had said that GM had styling. I disagreed with that. Perhaps a few low volume cars, but as a general rule, no. Certainly Chrysler is more known for styling than GM.
Ding, ding, ding. Folks, we have a winner!
Same here. And with more players in the market, the share goes down, especially when you don't have new and glamorous choices to catch the eye or the writer's eyes.
>until GM can improve their perception of these qualities
>So why would I buy a Cobalt?
And that's your choice. I don't think I'd buy either. I'd pick a larger, more comfortable car for luggage and 3 adult-size people to travel as well as use around town.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Something like this one:
I really liked those LeSabres. I saw a red convertible one last week and they are cool. Is that about a '62. The '59's and 60's were good years for LeSabres.
The new Lucerne and LaCrosse, I don't see much Bling, too much Blah!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Not say you in particular will like the Lucerne compare to
car X, but rather simply saying that effort is better than the
other cars in the GM line, and certainly brings a more modern approach to Buick style in 2006. The back end is, while larger, much the same look as the old Corolla I had - the '98. If they lose the big eyes up front and work on the buttox a bit, it is actually not all that bad. The CTS is kinda shocking at first, but it really grows on some after awhile. If you are old enough to recall the Ford Fairlane of say '65, with stacked headlights, then think of what someone making a futuristic version of that car may have drawn up back when, I am thinking CTS. No - I have not been drinking
-Loren
Been down this road before with the "import" crowd. I have been told over and over how bad Ford vehicles are and they "don't last". Well, all 4 of mine over the last 15 years have been fine. Up to 100,000 with no problems on 2. I do own a Fusion. Paid about $2K less than a comparable Honda Accord. You also forget I got 0% financing. How low is your financing? %3.9 is the lowest you can get with Honda. So How much more did I save over the normal Honda purchaser in financing? By the way I owned an Accord, went back to "domestic" didn't see why I was paying the extra $$?? for a perceived advantage...
We had the hard top, but with the windows
down, it looked like ya had a hardtop convertible.
Pretty slick. Would it support the weight of the car?
Never tested
did every car in the early years. To this date, I am
thinking used GM is still better than buying new. It
is not like the warranty is long anyway. And the re-
sale is not so great. If I got a Lucerne, I would just
go used. Those Lucerne and DTS, I would imagine,
drop some $10K to $15K in a years time??? Hey,
I two years time it may be _______? If GM is around.
May be a good cruiser. A sharp driver - most likely
not. Maybe the top line one. Pretty heavy though.
-Loren
The DTS vs. the Lucerne??? So different. Guess my vote goes with the conservative this time = Cadillac, though I still think the Lucerne is not bad - a tad off in some respects. For a remake, I kinda like the little redo on the Devilles.
Now style wise, I still do like the '94 Mustang. To me, it looks Mustang '65 in character, only in a modern day rendition. It came about as close to retro as one need arrive at. It was not a replica car at all. Captured the sport and theme of the Stang well.
Not sure what Buick car to use as a model for a future car. I do kinda like the '65 Riviera. Could they capture that essence of style and grace again? I think an aero dynamic version could be made of that. Just wondering..... That 1995 Riv. was something. Could be a show car some day. It was different - the cigar shape. In some ways kinda cool. No, don't make another. A retro '65 Riv. though,,,, hummm? Maybe, a modern cool and rounded one. I take it the Nomad project is dead?
-Loren