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And yes, a little bias against Korea or China product vs, other industrial countries, may indeed exsist.
They are selling, but not as fast as they could have if not for the bad start they had. I live in a college town, so they seem to own BMW, Jettas, Mustangs, lots of trucks, SUVs, and a lot on other expensive cars. The low end is more Civic, Corolla, Mazda3, then Hyundais. Accords and Camrys, of course are plentiful.
The Sonata is selling pretty good. The Azera, I am not so sure of. The Hyundai SUV, for some reason, sells well around here.
But I still talk to people that are not convinced Hyundai cars are for real, or feel they are third class. I think Korean makes are getting there though. Kia, is not considered by some, myself included, as something as good as Hyundai.
-Loren
So we've found the point where we agree. :P
I guess after all those Cavalier years I would have expected the General to put out something a bit more compelling than the Cobalt or G6. Now the G6 initial marketing was a work of art. A mysterious car zooming around, without any real pictures. Announcement that soon would be "the new G6". If they had spent more effort on the product and less on the marketing it would be really impressive. But not only did the product not win the world over with styling, it also didn't have the refinement or smoothness. Same story.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots/Spy_Shots_08_Cadillac_CTS.- S178.A10620.html
The down side: the site says, and I hope it's wrong, that it will arrive late 2007. That's one full year behind the new G35.
Put me down in the 10% group. I have owned two new Toyotas and one new Honda Accord. All sub standard vehicles compared to domestic. Last 5 new vehicles were GM truck based and the Japanese have nothing to compete. Toyota and Honda got their act together in the 1990s on cars. Still got a ways to go on trucks.
PS
Honda does not have enough money to buy GM. Kerkorian spent a couple years trying and ended up with 8% and he is the biggest stockholder. If this deal does not go through with Nissan and GM he may sell his 8% to Honda.
I guess if GM wants the numbers game, selling the low end on price, then Cobalt is a success. It is cheap car, with the most torque for the price. In that respect it is good. Is it anything worth the wait after years and years of Cavalier days, most would say not. The car is functional, and has its good points no doubt, but if GM wants to upscale the image, they should make the G6 the base car, and leave the lowest end to Korean makes. Just my opinion.
Still would like to see a less expensive CTS. If they want to make it a Malibu, or whatever so named car, it doesn't matter, but please some RWD, in a medium size, with good handling, for a starter $21K to $25K range. Something in to compete with same the Dodge Charger, only smaller, and better looking. Ya know, a bit of freshen up of the Charger style, and I may consider one some day.... those too tall doors? Oh well, maybe.
-loren
I like the shot of the back end of the '08 computer rendition of a possible CTS. It is interesting. That said, I may some day be interested in the previous model, and buy one used. If they change the edgy look, and art and science become common, and compromise, the first rendition becomes a collector item. History repeats itself. Any better Thunderbird than the first year, looks wise? Recall the first Toronado? OK, the car is not even built yet, so it may be harsh to say it will not look as good. And that is not the point anyway. It could actually look better and still not be a CTS. The character is an in-your-face, and all so edgy one. The new one may be enough along that line to keep the trend going. It is now a wait and see. Perhaps I will see the new one, and fall in love with its charm. Looks like some smooth and classy lines. Guess it comes from seeing what the STS looked like when it was rounded down. It is an alright car, and I am sure more luxo, but gone was the edge. I may still buy an original. Even with its so-so and a bit strange interior, it may still end up being the classic.
Will it be a case of a better car, but not a better CTS? Sort of like the first change of the Miata from its origin. It was characterized by many as the better car, but the original was the better Miata.
From the photos provided, I would say it would make for a good looking automobile, perhaps blending a little with other cars though. I like it more so than the STS style.
Do you feel the G35 is right priced? The coupe, IMHO, looks better than does the 350Z.
I guess the only way we shall see the G35 in our town is have the Cadillac dealer selling them as well. :shades:
-Loren
an Escalade
Loren
You know Loren, one of the reasons I harp so hard on GM is that I'd really like to be proud of the products our country puts out. I'm proud of our computer industry - Microsoft, Apple. I'm proud of our Biotech leadership - Genentech, Amgen. I'm proud of Boeing and 3M.
But in cars - what an embarassment! And GM, more than even the other US makes, continues to disappoint. It's not like they haven't more resources than any other US make, and it's also not like they haven't had the time. With all the management and MBA's they undoubtedly have, how hard would it be to realize that rentals and shoddy entry-level products are not going to create the loyalty they need to have progressive buy-up-the-line customers?
I'm certainly not an automotive expert, but I'd have to agree with Socala that in spite of the significant and legitimate challenges that GM has with the unions, the bigger problem is the lack of strategy, vision, and leadership. And that is a management problem. And that means that not only Wagoner, but even the board, should go. They've had enough time and they're not doing it nearly fast enough.
The car that you just described is a RX-8
Cars Direct
Net Cost: $23,768 - and that includes shipping/frieght charges!. Add in an option or two and you're comfortably at $25K.
GM has nothing in the 20-25K range that comes close in handling, interior, power, or styling. They seriously need to look at Mazda for inspiration. THere's one company that definately gets it right more often than most of the others.
Case in point - My sister was looking for a car and was torn between the MAzda 3 and the new Civic. Pont for point, option for option, they were virtually identical. She picked the Civic only because the Honda has a slightly better engine. But she went back and forth for a week it was so close. Even I was surprized. Honda's new Civic looks like a Mazda 3 clone, which says a lot about the Mazda.
GM? I doubt if you would find anyone who would do an item by item, inch by inch comparison for a week between anything they make and anything Honda makes.
Oh - about the perfect car... That ceased to exist about ten years ago when Volvo stopped selling the 960/S80. Handled well, built like a tank, safe, luxurious, and of course, gorgeous interior and smart styling. Plus, RWD as a kicker. Oh - and not Mercedes in price.
Second place goes to the Lexus GS series from a few years ago. The one with the RWD and the inline-6 engine. Beautiful car all around and something GM could and should learn from. I-6 plus RWD is the best compromise between power, reliability, wieght, and gas mileage in a midsize car. Too bad Lexus went for a V6 recently - it's a step backwards, IMO.
Lexus GS specs
Compare the GS to a Buick. Now realize that we're talking 3.0L versus 3.8L and a couple of hundred pounds less weight. That's an impressive engine.
Mercedes knew this fourty plus years ago. BMW figured it out a bit later. GM still can't manage to wrap its head around the concept.
Would wait for a non-rotary version before buying one.
I can not think of a Civic which looks like a Mazda3? Not sure I follow on that one. Which model? Interior / exterior?
Yes, GM should go with an inline 6 some day. Although the Mercedes V6 is said to be nearly as smooth as a BMW i6. Or is it really? Lexus inline 6 gas mileage was poor. Like the idea of inline 6.
-Loren
While I agree with you going from I-6 to V-6 seems like a step backward, I don't think it's a loss in Lexus case. First, the aging iron-block inline-6 was a heavy engine. So much that when they tested an IS430 prototype, it came lighter than the production IS300 by about 20-40 pounds.
Second, the previous GS300 delivered 18/25 mpg. The new one is rated at 22/30 mpg. Most important of all though, the current V6 is only a bridge to the 2007 GS350, arrives by October. It has more than 300 hp, and it's hard to argue against it in favor of any inline-6, except of course the 300-hp turbocharged one in the 335i.
I consider the Midwest _civilized_. I don't think we want to go down that road of discussion. I can give my opinion of what different US problems have started in other areas on various social topics.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I would agree. No, not that your drinking but the CTS looks like a '65 Fairlane a bit (or Galaxie 500),
And I like the CTS...bold, creative, classic, different than the rest, original (unless you go back to '65)
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
I like the current one better. Looks like they rounded it off and made it look like all the other cars. And, it looks like the windows are getting smaller, and the belt line higher. An example of a great design - gone ugly.
IMO GM wants to declare Chapter 11.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
WOW! Now that is hot looking. Compared to a Malibu, how would you not choose the RX-8?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
The focus is on looking at things on the aggregate and the fact is that the Japanese and Koreans continue to take market share directly from GM.
What car is going to turn that around? The Impala and Cobalt are improvements over their previous models, but are already also rans. In the typical GM scheme of things, these cars are just going to fall farther and farther behind as they languish for another 6 or 7 years. When can we look forward to the 2nd ever G6 and what will it do? A few nice Caddies are great but the bottom line is the current styling is not saving GM.
Enron and MCI come to mind also. That is all they did was merger, acquire and destroy. I think the whole deal could end up with a much smaller GM. I don't think the UAW would end up with much left. At least we don't have to house Ken Lay in prison.
You did mention Nissan under Ghosn adding manufacturing to the US. Was any of it Union? I think that is what the UAW fears the most. They would rather deal with the devil they know than the one they don't know.
Certainly the question is what turns that around. It's not going to be just a change in product. That has occurred. It is going to have to be a question of image and reputation. As long as there are a few who are able to say nothing is good and get by with that overstatement, the change doesn't come.
The market share is being divided among more and more players, Kia, Hyundai, Toyo, and Hunda. There is a smaller pie left for an even player. GM has to get back to being and even field player and has to improve beyond that--in perception if not as well as reality.
A friend is so forgiving of the faults and flaws of her 95 Civic. She shopped Hunda again and even considered an Accord or Civic. But ended up with a rather unnotable Corolla. Reason: because she'd had trouble with a 1970s GM car, she didn't want another. Long memory.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Well, you can get into a new Malibu for $15k, and a year-old one for probably under $12k. The Malibu gets better mileage, your typical GM buyer won't like the rotary's Hondaesque torque curve, and won't be mindful of the necessities of rotary ownership (check the oil and refill often, don't shut it down before it warms up, etc.)
The GM loyalist/apologist looks at the improved products and thinks that the problems are in everyone's heads but that not the case. Is the Impala as good as an Avalon? Not even close. Is the Cobalt as goods as a Civic or 3. No again. Is the Malibu competitve with the Camcord and Altima? That's laughable.
I'm the only import buyer in my family so my experience with the General does not date back to and end in the 70s. I've owned over a dozen GM cars. My last was a 89 Camaro. After that one drove me away, I bought Japanese and stopped dealing with build issues and ridiculous unscheduled repairs. Why on Earth would I go back when I've only had good service from my cars and see the GMs in my family falling short?
I don't see why the UAW would be attacking Wagoner in its press releases, it's smart for the union to support him (at least publically) at this juncture.
This could be a matter of the union establishing a negotiation position, i.e. "We're happy with the Wagoner status quo, Carlos, so what are you going to do to sweeten the pot so that we like you, too?" And in any case, if this deal falls out, the last thing the union wants is to have trash-talked Wagoner, only to find that he's still there...
I don't see the Impala as being set up to compete with Avalon. It's Accord and Camry area, but not meant to directly compete.
>Malibu competitve with the Camcord and Altima
Malibu is smaller than Camry and Accord. It's to place between the Civic in size and Accord.
I believe your comparisons are off.
As far as Cobalt comparing with Civic? I don't know what to think of the Cobalt. It could have been done better than it is.
>The GM loyalist/apologist looks at the improved products and thinks that the problems are in everyone's heads but that not the case
I assume that's meant to refer to me. With risk of responding to a personal comment, do you think the perception of GM is a tiny bit biased in the media (nonautomotive) and in the automotive enthusiast test driving types CD, MT, even a little bit? Or are you saying it's all even playing ground!!!! I'm being careful not to make a proper response to the comment, Rules of the Road.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's not entirely true. Yes we have Hyundais and Kias now, but in the past we had Alfa Romeos, Renaults, Stud bakers and others. Mistubishi and Isuzu were also popular, and now they are dying. And those past brands are simply being replaced by these new arrivals. You can easily bet the Chinese will replace Isuzu, Mitsubishi and maybe Suzuki. It's easy to blame the increasing 'number' of competitors on GM's decline with one eye, while the other eye is blind-folded and does not see that Toyota, Honda and BMW are not suffering a bit from the same competitors and enjoying their best sales.
First tell the UAW to pound sand. Lets face it, the american people and wall street want the cheapest price for goods, look at the mega growth of wally world.
America's pocketbook vote has been increasingly based of the getting the best deal for the money, not blindly buying based off national loyality.
No stupid, it's product not color swatches that impress people and car reviewers. GM is so entrenched that SE Michigan is the center of the world of car culture. The whole import tuner scene is from Southern california.
GM has been behind the market 8 ball since 82'
Another problem too manty models and brands
When I look at my mother's Impala needing brakes at 11k and having a tranny leak at 30k, or the ABS light on my father's Century which won't turn off at 15,000 miles, what does C & D or MT have to do with that?
Since I bought my Civic in 99 and then my Altima in 03, I haven't dealt with any dumb, aggravting problems like that. There's more than just a "perception" that the cars aren't up to snuff. The current models are improved, but still not good enough.
tinatina, "Honda Civic: Problems & Solutions" #5084, 5 Jul 2006 7:10 pm
I'm glad you haven't had trouble with your cars. But I notice there are problems discussions for both. This is beginning to sound like the antiGM comments I referred to so I'm out of this discussion.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Do you mean mags like CD or local television. If it's the national media this may be a case of everyone thinks schools are awful and doing a terrible job. But when polled about their own local school, the ranking is much, much higher. The perception of public schools has been couched by media negatively. Same for cars.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Be very, very careful there driver200.
I just checked the consumer reviews for the Chevy Cobalt (direct competitor to the Civic).
It has NO RATING (Zero consumers have submitted a rating for the Cobalt). So, imidazol97 could submit a fake glowing review of the Cobalt, give it a 10, and then YOU'D owe him an oil change..... :surprise:
I think it's kinda funny that NO CONSUMERS has done a report on the Cobalt. And only 2 did a review of the Ford Focus (rated 9.1). Meanwhile, the Mazda 3 (consumer rating of 9.4) gets 156 reviews......
edit: that's odd. When you look at forums (ie. Chevy Cobalt Problems and Solutions), it lists 'No Reviews' for the Cobalt. Buuuuuuut.......when you look up the car under the 'New Car' section, it lists 93 reviews for the Cobalt Sedan (and a consumer rating of 8.7)........
IMO dramatic measures are not too likely to bring improvements.
Incremental market gains backed by vehicles people want to buy has more potential.
Well, you can get into a new Malibu for $15k, and a year-old one for probably under $12k.
Good points, but based on style (which is the main thing we are talking about in the discussion), which one would you choose bump?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
IMO the media favors GM compared to the foreign makes. IMO they skim over a lot of negative issues to try to help out the home team.
IMO almost every American would prefer to buy American made cars if they were at least as good as the foreign makes...people don't go out of their way to buy foreign, they just know by experience, word of mouth that there are better cars out there than American built.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Look above the page you linked us to, for the average customer ratings;
Get a price quote on a Honda Civic Consumer Rating 9.3 468 Reviews
Get a price quote on a Honda Civic del Sol Consumer Rating 9.5 18 Reviews
Get a price quote on a Honda Civic CRX Consumer Rating 9.5 35 Reviews
All the ratings are 9.3 to 9.5. I am not going to look up the GM's but I will bet you one oil change none rank that high!!!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
IMO the media is easier on GM. I remember reading excellent reviews for the new Focus before the early ones which were plagued with problems.
The problems with this arguement are that each side always thinks the media is against them. I think we try to examine it all too critically. So, I can't give proof that the media favors the home country manufacturers, and I don't think you can prove that they don't, so I am going to give up, except to say I only THINK that the media treats American companies a little gentler.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Thank you for pointing that out rorr, but I am sure we can count on imidazo not to fake it.
(By the way the oil change is for 10w30, and doesn't include a filter)
Maybe Cobalts are too new to be rated for faults - still under warranty, and I would imagine, the buyers of Cobalts aren't into cars that much that they would write to a forum, otherwise they wouldn't have bought a Cobalt????
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
That 8.7 is going to come down a lot after the first year.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Oh - the 3 is almost identical to the new Civic. The feature list is virtually the same, the placement and options... And both whomp on the Cobalt. It's not even close.
Those first-gen Chevelles and Malibus actually weren't bad looking cars, but I just thought they were kinda boxy and stubby. The Tempests, F85's, and Specials were better looking IMO. They were also about 10 inches longer though, which helped give them a longer, lower, sleeker look.
By 66-7, the SS'es were really becoming something. I'm not crazy about 68-9, but by 70, the Chevelle was a great looking car.
Now: any suggestions why my 02 Malibu handles so badly. Hard to hold a straight line, terrible in cross winds, twitchy. Alignment good, tires are OEM Firestone Firehawks(26K and look new) at door frame recommended pressure. Pretty much been like this from day one. No history of curb climbing, off roading, or road killing. Suggestions:
I don't think this is a "perceived" problem or shows bias against GM!!! :P
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Guess I'm headed to take my rightful spot in the dealer's waiting room Monday morning.
I really am at the dealer once a month for something. This has been going on for the last year or more......
I don't think we are imagining this image problem????
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Nissan's influence might get GM back into the car business - something they have not be in, competitively, for over 25 years. Much in the same way, however, that MB's influence has strengthened some of Chrysler's products and hurt the overall qualities of the Benzes - the same should happen to Nissan. And without some sort of renegotiation of and relieve from GM's other obligations (pension funds etc.) - Nissan would be getting nothing but a pig in a poke. GM has something like 14% market share - which means nothing because the more they 'sell', the more money they lose. The logical solution, unfortunately, may be to cut out the cancer before it spreads!
Well yeah, okay, maybe it's not the fairest comparison in the world, but I'm also a bit biased, because I think the '68-70 intermediate Mopars, with the exception of the '70 Dodge Coronet that went to a clumsy split grille, are just about as perfect as you can get. So I'd take even a basic '68 Satellite hardtop over a comparable '64-65 Chevelle!
Now, comparing the '64-65 Chevelle to cars of the same year and same type, I don't think it's bad looking. I think I like the '64 Fairlane a bit better, but can't stand the boxy '65. And a '64-65 Satellite/Coronet isn't the best looking car in the world, either. Honestly though, I think a '64-65 Chevelle is much better looking than a '64-65 Dart or Valiant...those things were just goofy looking! Although that's part of their appeal, I guess.
I think my favorite Chevelle from the earlier years was the '66. Much slicker looking than the '64-65, and I think the front-end looks sportier than the '67. I actually think the '68-69 is a hot looking car though, although I do like the '70 and '71-72, as well.
It's just the basic shape of the '64-65 Chevelle that I don't find appealing. Not ugly, but not exciting either. And adding an SS package or a big-block wouldn't make it look any more exciting IMO. Even if it would make it drive more exciting! I guess to me it's what you'd call a sleeper.
SAAB would do better under Ghosn's management rather than under Wagner's management. GM needs to drop Buick, Saturn, Pontiac, and GMC. They should
1. keep Chevy and improve it
2. keep SAAB and use it to compete against EU home grown Merc, BMW, Volvo, and Audi
3. keep Cadi and use it to hold the US home grown luxury market and beat up on Chrysler and Ford
4. keep the unique Hummer
All GM vehicles look alike, drive alike, sound alike, and so on.
FWIW, I always thought that SAAB would have been a better fit for VW than it was for GM. I know that GM had hopes that SAAB could become GM's version of BMW, but they've flailed with the brand and never really figured out how to make it work.
If there wasn't platform sharing at this point, I would think that it would be wise to sell it or otherwise spin it out. But these days, it would be tough to do that (for example, the new Europe-only Cadillac is basically a rebadged SAAB), so I'm not sure what there is to sell that wouldn't come at a price. Plus, I'm not sure who would buy it, and what they'd be willing to pay for a rather low volume, unprofitable marque.
2006 Buick Lucerne Styles
MSRP Price Range: $25,265 - $34,265
Guess $21,000 for one that is considered used is an OK price. Doesn't seem like much for the top of the line Buick (even if stripped). Why sell it at 25 miles, that's just enough to get it in the show-room from the car carrier truck?
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250