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New Audi4. Beautiful looking in silver, great proportions, large windows, great smooth lines you won't get tired of. Made me say "I wouldn't mind driving around in one of those".
Fusion; Unfortunately it was in brown which did nothing for it. Black seems to work best on this car. Looked a little sloppy next to the Audi. Roof line is bulky at the rear quarters, and I don't understand that duct tape look around the tailights.
LaCrosse; (Allure in Canada because LaCrosse is a very bad word in French speaking Canada) it was in black which might be it's best color. Looks really nose heavy (which reminds me it looks like a large mouth bass I once caught) and different shapes and angles. Certainly not original, not one to hold it's looks in 10 years, not an "I'd love to own one of those" designs.
G6; It was in red, which seemed to suit it. Smooth lines makes it a good attempt to look fairly new. Looked like it was an upscale Cobalt, kind of wedge shaped with a little more mass to it. To me, an Accord, Altima or Camry just look more interesting,
The Audi was by far the best styled. If you say, it is also more expensive, I'd say it doesn't cost that much more to design a pleasant looking vehicle than an ugly one.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Now that is funny!
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
They drive the [non-permissible content removed] of of them, as most enthusiasts do. They do however, take them on extended trips and such as well... The CTS-V is certainly targeted towards a COMPLETELY different buyer than a Buick Park Avenue! They KNOW CTS-V buyers are going to drive hard. But I was in FL on business last year, and had an '06 Monte Carlo rental for over a month. Even with only 11K on the clock, it made some funky noises when cornering hard on off-ramps, or over bumps. The interior felt cheap. It did not exude quality.
Now that is funny!
Considering some of the cars I've had over the years, I'm not going to comment here. :P Once when I was driving my '79 New Yorker I did have this old dude do a double-take; probably shocked to see someone as young as me behind the wheel!
I didn't think so. I will check GM's website again. Still, no stability control.
2. The VUE Hybrid DOES get better gas mileage than the CRV.
VUE's observed MPG in the Edmunds' test is 24.8 MPG. My CR-V, also a 2WD cute-ute, is rated at 23-29 MPG and I am getting 26 MPG (80% city + 20% hwy) with a/c on.
3. The CVT was a supplier issue, not GM.
So, how does that help a VUE CVT owner?
4. GM has BETTER V6 than the Honda, it just did not have capacity at the time. And Honda for its part needed diesels from GM. It will not use the Honda V6 after this year.
Better?
5. Your link also says that the Civic GX is a deadly car. Edmunds might not be guilty of a little hyperbole, mightn't it?
I guess Honda has been lately making Civic DX, LX, EX, HX. So, this new VUE is just as good as a Civic that's no longer made!
To wit: Here is an unedited exchange with the Pontiac dealer in Simi Valley, CA, when I inquired online about a Solstice:
Dealer:
I have two Solstice in stock right now....both automatics...one red with air conditioning, one black with no air. Both fully loaded beyond that. When can you come drive one?
Me (Potential Client):
When you come up with a non-gouging price :-)
I am looking for the following options on a 2007 base model (i.e. NOT GXP):
US8, UQ3, JL9 and ZQ3. I show a total of $21,474 (which includes destination charge as well as the manufacture holdback of $642). How close do you want to come to that figure?
Dealer:
There is no such Sostice within 500 miles of Simi Valley. You would be time and money ahead to order your Solstice exactly the way you want it and not pay for options like A/C, ect. Our dealership does not mark-up the MSRP, we sell at MSRP.
Me (Potential Client):
MSRP is worthless and you know it. GM is sinking under retirement/health benefits, Kirkokian wants Ghosn in there asap to stop the hemorrhaging and when GM finally brings out a couple of cars people actually want, the dealers gouge.
This is why GM dealers can only sell to the uninformed (i.e. suckers.)
Bye.
Dealer:
Sorry to discover that you can't afford a Solstice. You might want to consider educating yourself to the real happenings of the automotive industry. Hiding behind your computer and giving out bogus phone numbers won't drive you down the freeway to sucess any time soon!
Me (Potential Client):
I can afford a Solstice. My computer keeps [non-permissible content removed] like you from taking up time on the phone. As far as how the automotive business works, you obviously have no clue. My uncle owns several dealerships in Seattle, a friend of mine does safety training for dealerships and I subscribe to 6 car magazines. Does that mean I know everything there is to know about cars? No. You may have problems understanding the perspective of educated buyers.
A professional would have responded with, "I'm sorry I was unable to give you a deal you were comfortable with. Let me know if I can do anything for you in the future." It's just that simple.
Your dealership has a horrible reputation in the sales department. Looks like your continuing the tradition.
For your reading pleasure:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11007/showroom-turncoat-comes-clean.html
BTW: Your attitude has sent me to a Mazda dealer where I am purchasing a Miata.
And so, I won't set foot in that dealer again. Oh and all the dealer's spellings are (sic).
I recently had a perfectly normal interaction with a Pontiac salesman. I expected a lousy experience, but he was a consummate professional. Showed me the G6 convert; showed my the Solstice; walked the lot and opened the Lucerne, LaCrosse AND GTO for me, despite the fact that I told him I was not buying but wanted to simply get an idea (a) if I could fit in the G6 or Solstice, and (b) if any of his stuff was anything that I should keep on my list when I DO decide to buy. We opened the GTO just because I was peering through the window and thought they did a nice job with it.
He has called me, but not pushed. Totally professional.
Maybe it's different here in Nor. Cal.?
I also liked "old man" cars. God, my first car was a '64 Rambler wagon....that was in 1974! In fact I had a '79 New Yorker myself, really miss it!
LOL! Your loyal support for GM is not always uh...shall we say logical, IMHO.
Geez, if the tranny goes belly up on my Camry, Toyota service can always say, "It's not you, it's not me, it's that supplier behind the tree!"
The opposite is also true, the few small 4 banger cars the domestics made in the 90's were so horribly designed, built, constructed, and assembled, that youngsters like me that got one (because they were more bang for the buck at purchase) regretted every bit of it!
Then when it came time to get a new car... instead of getting 6,000 for a Civic I got less than 3K for my domestic. (rhymes!). Not a very good down payment!
Not to mention the extra thousands of dollars I had to spend that I otherwise wouldn't of had to with a Civic.
So it's not just that Honda/Toyota retains customers, it's that Chrysler/GM/Ford loses them.
....
So it's not just that Honda/Toyota retains customers, it's that Chrysler/GM/Ford loses them.
I'm that original poster.
This really shows how long term damaging the quest for near-term profits can be. GM (and others) were riding high in the '90's. But it's going to be REALLY hard to win back a lot of that business. Even if the cars are great.
The last reliable domestic my family owned as a kid was a very good 74 Cadillac that they owned for ten years. As it was ten years old in 84 it was beginning to get unreliable.
However the replacement was a new 84 ford escort, that broke down quite a bit and had an engine defect that would have caused the engine to catch fire. It was burning oil and leaving quite a trail of smoke when she turned it in. Not counting the way the dealer yanked her leg about the burning oil issue. (Did he think my mom was just dumb or dumb and blind??)
It was replaced in 1988 by a new Tempo. The Tempo broke down every summer. Had a Freon leak that was never fixed despite numerous repairs. The leak caused the A/C to need a complete recharge before it got hot in the summer. So even more time in the repair shop. Not counting the fact that it had a tendency to fail the emissions test!
My mom decided to get a Camry and gave me the Tempo for my own use. It lasted all of 1 week before breaking down. That breakdown was the last straw, she traded it for a new 94 Trecel and I got that car.
Growing up I thought all cars were inherently as unreliable as those two lemons. What a shock the two Toyotas were.
My mom keept the Camry for nine years and maybe had only 1 or two breakdowns. The power steering was going bad when she replaced it (rather that put the cash up to fix it), but then that was after nine years and 120,000 miles. With such a good record when she wanted a new car she went straight for a Toyota Avalon and didn’t give GM or Ford a thought. The Avalon is likewise proving to be a relatively trouble free car.
My own 94 Trecel is approaching 120,000 miles. In 12 years it has never broke down and stranded me somewhere. The only time it has never started is when I leave the lights on.
Sure I did have some unexpected repairs. The heater blower motor went out after 6 years and again after 6 more years. And yes the car has an engine defect that causes it to burn oil(the valve steams are wearing out) but it took 12 years and over 100,000 miles to even bring that out as opposed to the escort. And this car and the Camry had no problems passing emissions. The only time it failed was this year and that was due to the oxygen sensor (a 12 year old part).
With that sort of record and with my love of small cars, I sure ain't taking a risk with gm or ford. While I can’t be sure that the next one will be as good at least I know first hand Toyota is capable of producing a relatively reliable car. Something I am not too sure of when it comes to Ford or GM.
New Audi4. Beautiful looking in silver, great proportions, large windows, great smooth lines you won't get tired of. Made me say "I wouldn't mind driving around in one of those".
The Audi A6 and A8 look even better. Longer, sleek elegant lines, and of course that German engineering that some can't seem to get enough of The Audi 6 and 8 haven't been well rated for reliability, however a person that can afford these cars probably isn't going to keep it for more than 3 or 4 years. GM always thought they could count on this kind of buyer. The problem with GM is you can't even keep their cars out of the mechanics bay within the first year. Things are slowly starting to change, but it seems that it's far too little, and way too late, like 30 years too late.
Fusion; Unfortunately it was in brown which did nothing for it. Black seems to work best on this car. Looked a little sloppy next to the Audi. Roof line is bulky at the rear quarters, and I don't understand that duct tape look around the tailights.
Ford seems to want to capitalize on European styling when it come to the Fusion, unfortunately traditional American car companies dont understand that style also extends to the interior and other parts of the car which they still think people don't know about, e.g. the engine and how it's made, suspension, the way the car feels when it drives and it's reputation.
LaCrosse; (Allure in Canada because LaCrosse is a very bad word in French speaking Canada) it was in black which might be it's best color. Looks really nose heavy (which reminds me it looks like a large mouth bass I once caught) and different shapes and angles. Certainly not original, not one to hold it's looks in 10 years, not an "I'd love to own one of those" designs.
The LaCrosse is just another one of those passe designs that Buick dumped on us so much of the time during the 1970's and 80's and early 90's. The front of it looks like a whale or fish. It's a very clumsy, ugly, frumpy , grandpa car design. And once again, when you get inside, and overwhelming sense of cheap hell surrounds you when it comes to form, fit and finish, and the instrument panel screams 1955 and CHEAP. Why is some sense of focus, care and design only reserved for the Cadillac moniker (e.g. Cadillac XLR)? GM needs to do this for the rest of the nameplates, otherwise it will surprise no one but them if other nameplates suffer the same fate as Oldsmobile.
G6; It was in red, which seemed to suit it. Smooth lines makes it a good attempt to look fairly new. Looked like it was an upscale Cobalt, kind of wedge shaped with a little more mass to it. To me, an Accord, Altima or Camry just look more interesting,
When I first saw the Pontiac G6, I was very impressed with the exterior styling. What ruined it for me was...well the Pontiac Emblem. Then I investigated the inside of it and still found the same cheap interior that sadly prevails with GM cars
The Audi was by far the best styled. If you say, it is also more expensive, I'd say it doesn't cost that much more to design a pleasant looking vehicle than an ugly one.
No it doesn't take more money to make a stylish car, but stylish is more than skin deep, and it takes much more money to make a car that is stylish through and through. General Motors cannot do this, because they have too much overhead, and quite frankly they are just stubborn. They don't realize that the generations are moving on and those that can afford a car every three years or sooner don't have to settle for embarassingly low quality, defective manufacturing, and cars made by a company that is run by financial analysts instead of car enthusiasts, and C.E.O's that get paid millions, whether they do their job or not
Another problem with GM is the way they conduct business in other countries (Remember they sell cars in almost every corner of the modernized world) is very different from how they do business in the United States. The United States has merely become the testing lab. Of course they didn't want you to know this.
>A couple years ago GM admitted in it's own print advertising they had been producing crap for the last 25 years. THERE, there's your supporting data sir.
I don't believe they called it "crap" and they didn't say 25 years. There goes your "data's" validity.
>experience knows that American car quality
Please check JDPowers quality data for several variations of time. The some GMs are above your European and Japanese models and the number of concerns difference between most of them is very small statistically. That's different than 10 years and more ago. Things have changed. You don't seem to have realized that
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I beg to differ. It's your reality that is clouded by blind patriotism, blind loyalty, self interest, or perhaps all three? GM didn't say crap in their advertising, of course they're not going to call it that "sir". They called it "not so good"... Now let's see... what do you think "NOT SO GOOD" means. Does it mean excellent to you? Does it mean.. WORLD CLASS, Does it mean up to par with the competition?? Even my 13 year old niece can figure this one out. Can you?
And yes, they did specify a time frame of 25 years.
And why shouldn't I hate GM? They've done nothing but embarrass the American public with their mediocrity, greed and delusion for at least 30 years.
Back to styling, most Americans will drive small cars only if they don't look like a small car. I think GM done a great job with the Cobalt, while small it still looks fairly mainstream and a little muscular. Toyota deserves credit for the Yaris sedan also, they borrowed styling from the new Camry. Honda is another story, that Fit is ugly! I predict it won't be a big seller in the US. The more foreign a small car looks, the more Americans tend to hate it.
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First of all Escambiaguy you need some education. GM didn't do anything to the Chevrolet Cobalt besides slap their monikers on it. They don't even manufacture the car. The car is imported from and made in Korea by guess who? KIA!
I agree with you regarding the Honda Fit, It's ugly, but it was meant to compete with the highly successful Scion XB made by Toyota.
Where I don't agree with you is when you say the more foreign a car looks, the more Americans tend to hate it. What?? Wait a minute here.. This statement of yours slaps in the face of contradiction based on your ignorance regarding the Chevrolet Cobalt, which isn't even an american car. It's made in Korea by Kia
In addition, FOREIGN LOOKING sure hasn't hurt, Toyota Mercedes, BMW or Audi when it comes to sales in the U.S.A.
And just what is a foreign car these days. Toyotas, Hondas, Mercedes, BMW. These companies all have manufacturing plants in the United States. Honda has been building cars in Marysville, Ohio since 1985. Kia plans on building a manufacturing plant in U.S.A. too, because they've had surprising success there.
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And you shouldn't trust General Motors lahiri. They are not a company that you should trust with your money, cause they are about ripping people off and giving money to the shady C.E.O. whether he does his job or not. General Motors has had plenty of time to emulate the competition, and year after year they don't care, and continue to make mediocrity. I'm not even sure if it can even be considered mediocrity in many cases.. Just take a look at the interior of any GM car, perhaps a Buick LaCrosse and compare it to a Lexus Es300 or Toyota Camry. Why would someone choose GM? They're stubborn and don't want to bring their quality up to where it should be.
I've managed to steer my affluent housemates in the right direction when it comes to buying cars. These are people who can afford to buy a new car every 3 years. They wouldn't touch General Motors with a "cement condom" and haven't for 14 years now.
I don't care what JD Power and Associates says either. They are somewhat of a sham cause they give awards based on INITIAL QUALITY. Initial Quality? What about long term quality? Everything works great when it's new. Apparently JD Power and Associates doesn't know this. Ridiculous.
Do you go by a used car lot?
I have seen about 10 in the last 2 months. I was thinking they would probably make good taxi cabs though. Kind of a utilitarian look with lots of room inside.
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They are selling in Detroit? Everyday I see about 20? (LOL!) You people are too funny. Used Car Lot (LOL~) I don't think GM wants to see so many in used car lots. Somehow they want people to be excited about this bland car.
I think more people would look at the cars if they weren't pounced on. One can I help you or let me know if you need help will do. I might be more inclined to look at different makes if it wasn't for this hassle.
One brilliant idea I have is if a dealership said this is "TESTING DAY". Come in and try out a new whatever, no questions asked. If GM believes their cars are so good how about a TESTING DAY. It might make me at least curious enough to compare it to my present vehicle!
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response:
driver200-
The problem with your suggestion is YOU'RE SMARTER THAN GENERAL MOTORS IS!!!!!! as are most consumers
mediapusher
I assumed it was a Korean Car company which GM owns, because the form fit and finish looks too Asian to be made by anything I'm used to seeing General Motors make from the ground up. I'll bet I'm probably not wrong on this one.
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Wideglide, I couldn't have said it better myself!!!!
BRAVO!!!! Why many consumers dont understand that this is GMs main problem, I'll never know...
Rocky
Rocky
Unfortunately the Cobalt is all-American, built in Lordstown, Ohio. GM does sell the Daewoo Lacetti as the Chevy Optra in Canada and as the Suzuki Forenza in the US. Kia is controlled by Hyundai these days (and Ford's biggest blunder was abandoning their interest in Kia when it went bankrupt in 1998).
I agree with you regarding the Honda Fit, It's ugly, but it was meant to compete with the highly successful Scion XB made by Toyota.
The Fit was a standard subcompact sold by Honda all over the world outside of North America. Honda brought it to the US to have a vehicle in the subcompact segment, since the Civic is huge these days.
Someone on here claimed they only do short term results. Misguided info but I can't find a link to actual study for the poster.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Someone needs to spend a little more time looking at SEC filings and a little less time reading nonsense postings in chat forums.
Given the size of the company they manage, GM's executives are decidedly in the lower bracket of compensation in the US and in the Auto industry.
I don't care what JD Power and Associates says either. They are somewhat of a sham cause they give awards based on INITIAL QUALITY. Initial Quality? What about long term quality? Everything works great when it's new. Apparently JD Power and Associates doesn't know this. Ridiculous.
Then why doesn't JD Power give the same initial ratings to all autos?
But thanks for being so wrong about this (and where the Cobalt is made as well
Oh yeah, GM is set to announce it will be selling both the Holden Commadore and the Holdan Torrana as Pontiacs during the forthcoming Auto Show season.
When KIA filed bankruptcy in 1998, Hyundai bought them, and they are now within the large Hyundai conglomerate. KIA only sells its vehicles these days under its own nameplate at KIA authorized dealers. They are not a contract manufacturer, as such, as is GMDAT in Korea.
The Suzuki Forenza and now defunct Verona midsize were also GMDAT-built cars. The Aerio and new SX4 are real Suzuki's built in Japan. Their SUV's are also built in Japan. Unfortunately, Daewoo - now GMDAT - are not known for quality cars. Hyundai, and even KIA, are far superior to Daewoo in building a quality vehicle. Daewoo also built the circa-1989 and 1990 Pontiac LeMans - a real piece of junque.
And yes, Cobalt is build in the Lordstown, OH GM facility. The Honda Fit here in the USA is known as the Jazz in every other part of the world, and is the first generation Jazz.
Here's a Detroit News article from August, 2006:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060809/UPDATE/608090446
Now, about my earlier question:
You are satisfied with GM. You experienced problems years ago with Ford. What would it take for you to buy another Ford?
A case where incentive compensation is working to suppress earnings. If the company did better, they'd make alot more. We always hear about executives getting rich off of options but the GM execs options aren't worth squat because of the company's performance.
His product advisor is Lutz. Of course he has a finance, communications, etc.
The only reason Kerkorian wants this alliance is so that there will be a sudden increase in stock value so he can sell. There is very little in this proposed "alliance" that will help GM make money. That is the issue.
If I was buying a car and Ford would put the new 3.5 V6 in the Mustang and keep the pretty nice manual.
I think a lot of would be Mustang buyers are put off by the V8 but don't want the lowest common denominator V6. Of course Ford still sells so many of these, it may not be an issue.
If I was buying a pick up, give the Ranger the new F150 treatment - while keeping it the trim size it is now - use the 2.3 4 as a base. In other words, make it hands down the best looking, most quiet, and most economical small pick up out there (seems most of the rest are going for size - what is the point of getting a Hemi in a small pick up?) so I can take my bike and camping gear to trail heads around the country without paying a fortune.
I like to think I am not the only one who would go for this.
Well, since Kerkorian started his push the stock has gone from the mid 20s to about 33 dollars per share. The execs have not exercised any shares recently, suggesting they are either restricted or do not have all that many.
In any event, I should think this underscores the value of stock options.
When I tried trading in my Blazer for a CR-V, I had hard time. The response I had at one Honda dealership (John Holtz of Rochester-NY) was: "Why don't you sell yourself?" I responded, "I don't like to take people on test-drive." The dealer would then tell me, "You can get more if you sell yourself". I replied, "I don't want more." The dealer would say, "I'll give you a better deal on the CR-V if you sell yourself." Finally, I had to say, "Well, I need to look elsewhere." The salesman looked very happy and said, "Yes, I suggest the same... we just can't accept Chevy trade-ins... we have too many of them on our lots. In fact, too many GM/ Ford SUVs and we can't sell SUVs when gas price is this high."
I tried another dealer (Dick Ide of Rochester-NY) and it took me less than a minute to arrive at a deal.
Cobalt was designed and it is built here in the US. I think you have a lot of good points put a lot of your data is incorrect.
If options were issued back when the stock was in the seventies, they'll pretty much never be worth anything. If they got some restricted stock or options right when it hit a low in January, they'll probably have some nice money coming their way when they can be exercised in a couple of years.
But if you look at '03 the stock was $40 as was '05 so that will probably be worth something in a couple years. Remember they only get the difference between the option price and the sell price.
i will say that those who bought under $20 are doing very well this year
Thanks for the article. I don't think I will ever buy a car again.
Actually, some dealerships are pretty good. Seem to give you a fair price and are pretty good in their negotiating. If you find one you are lucky.
My Chrysler dealership was very honest, excellent pricing given right up front, and service was always fast and fair. Unfortunately, as good as they were, I test drove a ___?___ and I won't be buying another Jeep, but I recommend them to someone looking for a Chryco.
2017 MB E400 , 2015 MB GLK350, 2014 MB C250
Some will say that R&T drove the Cad CTS-V test car harder than a normal car owner. But, someone who buys a high-performance car will probably treat similar to R&T. One needs to look at other long-term tests done by R&T of high-performance cars to see how those other cars fared.
I had a couple of GM high-perf mega HP/torque cars years ago and each had a limited slip rear end. Never had a problem with the rear ends, though I did burn out one clutch on one of the cars - my fault.
R&T had the CTS-V for a long term 50,000 mile test. They reported a number of reliability/quality issues on the car. One was superficial. It concerned black paint coming off control knobs on navi system after 4000 miles. Dealer replaced entire navi unit and the paint also came off the knobs on the new unit.
On more serious side, R&T said that dealer serviced the rear end repeatedly. Limited slip was binding, there was a strange whine. One of the services replaced rear susp bushings and a torn diff bushing. Servicing by dealer cured noises and thunks from rear, but at 50000 miles the noises came back. The dealer fixed these again.
Other problems they reported: front anti-roll bar unbolted itself twice, trunk latch loosened and came out of alignment, rear oe spec tires replaced three times until Eagle RSA type put on and then no problem, manual gearshift a bit rubbery.
R&T did like the car for it being a serious performance car and mentioned that it had the same character as a BMW M5.
Hopefully, GM has solved these issues and recent CTS-V models are trouble-free. Any future long-term tests of GM cars by car magazines showing good reliability should help GM sales.
I would recommend to anyone considering a new GM vehicle to price the 5yr/60K or 10yr/100K bumper to bumper warranty. My example from above had about $1,000-$1,500 in non-powertrain repairs.
I'm crossing my fingers that our van takes us to 200K miles. Our 1988 Olds Delta 88 did that on the original powertrain.