General Motors discussions

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  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "The G6 and refreshed Impala barely existed in the summer of 2005, so seeing their percentages improve isn't surprising. I'd rather see real numbers, though. "

    Actually, that is incorrect. The G6 launched in fall 2004 as a 2005 model so it had been on the market for 8-9 months by summer 2005. As usual people are trying to come up with conspiracy theories to discredit any positive news from the General. If only people scrutinized Toyota and others with the same tenacity.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    The camaro build date has been known for some time now and it will start production in late 2008. The 300hp V6 will not be the base engine. I suspect the camaro will have an all pushrod lineup.

    "What happens when China product from GM comes into America? What will the effect be? "

    Who said that was going to happen? I have heard nothing about GM importing cars from China.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    The G6 launched in fall 2004 as a 2005 model so it had been on the market for 8-9 months by summer 2005.

    In one body style with one engine. The coupe, convertible, 2.4, 3.9 and 3.6 weren't available yet.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I have heard nothing about GM importing cars from China.

    Of course not. No one at GM is going to even hint at that eventuality until after the UAW contracts are concluded. However, given that Buick sells more cars in China than in the US, that Buick's sales are increasing in China and decreasing in the US, and that future Buick designs will at a minimum be done in collaboration with Buick's Chinese arm, it won't be long before GM finds it economically compelling to build Buicks in China and ship a portion over here.
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Member Posts: 291
    BTW, if I'm not mistaken that website had G6 and grand am sales combined in one category.

    You are mistaken. The 2006 mid-year fleetcentral numbers were:

    G6 72398 total sales, 30601 to fleet (30003 of those were rentals), 42.3% fleet

    Grand Am 1907 total sales, 391 to fleet (353 of those were rentals), 20.5% fleet
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I am aware what models were available. I dont see how that changes the point. Someone said the increase in retail sales was to be expect because the G6 was barely available in summer 2005 and I said that was wrong. The Base model and GT model were available starting in fall 2004. I think the point was supposed to be GM was comparing G6 sales to the sales of the dated Grand Am but that wasnt the case.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 14,132
    Sorry, but rental agencies arent the best place to test drive cars. Do you really expect to find nicely optioned cars at Avis? A lot of cars are less desirable with their base engines and cheapest trim lines.

    But that is exactly the problem with GM/Ford/DC. They lose a HUGE marketing opportunity in selling the rental agencies crap cars. It is a gigantic positive marketing opportunity. Unfortunately, GM wastes this opportunity by providing negative experiences and selling "junk" baseline models.

    The CIVIC and Corolla are quite good in their baseline designs, and now particularly the new Civic, as it has the same great engine in every model trimline since 2006. But even prior to that, the other engines were no slouches. In my view the Aura's weak base engine is an indication GM hasn't learned any lessons yet.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I will say this again: drive current rental cars. You are talking about the cavalier, Malibu Classic (a design from '97), lesabre and other cars that arent even in production these days. Go rent a lacrosse, Impala or Cobalt and see if it's junk. My cousin had a rental Impala that had leather, 17" wheels and moonroof. It was hardly a stripper and he liked it a lot. I had a rental lacrosse CXL that had dual zone AC, leather, steering wheel radio controls, pwr seats, etc. It was quite nice. I dont really think it matters what GM offers to rental fleets because some people are going to hate any car that can be rented. Do you really think a base model Camry is better than a base Malibu or Impala just because camry's arent usually found at Avis? My point is you cant drive a base model of any vehicle and expect to get a good impression of that entire vehicle line.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 14,132
    The base model might not give you the BEST impression of an entire vehicle line. That being said, however, a corporation should have a certain level of dignity, a certain standard of quality, a certal level that they won't sink beneath.

    I think GM might be guilty of sinking to a lower standard or bottom line than Toyota or Honda is willing to sink to.
    You have to uphold your brand image.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I'll say this again. Try renting a current GM car instead of basing your arguments on models that don't exist anymore. What exactly is a base Cobalt, G6 or Impala missing that you are going to find in a Honda/Toyota of similar price? Not much at all. I think you will be surprised if you actually go check out some current products instead of comparing 2007 model imports to last generation GM products. I dont think anyone here believes that Malibu classic or cavalier were on par with the competition, but times change. There is a reason GM doesnt make the Cavalier anymore. You are talking about the '97-'03 Malibu when a new model is about come out for 2008.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I rented an Impala on the last company trip (last December). It was a newer model Impala and I wasn't impressed.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "It was a newer model Impala and I wasn't impressed. "

    Shocking. I never would've guessed! I don't know how the fact that you weren't impressed proved the Impala is a bad car. What exactly was so bad about it? was it poorly assembled? was is load? did it have a rough ride? was the engine too weak? were the seats uncomfortable? did it break down?

    I'm not impressed by a whole lot of Toyotas and Hondas but I wouldn't say they are bad cars. I would just say I dont want them.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Ah, a good point. The low end cars used have less desirable engines and cheap trim. To remedy that simply make all the cars to a higher standard, as does the competition from abroad. Glad we now agree on something. :blush:
    That would be an American Evolution.
    Loren
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    what evidence do you have that GM isnt doing that? I'm looking for specifics. Simply saying GM rentals are crap isnt going to cut it for me. Why are they crap? what is wrong with them? I rented a Lacrosse and it was fine. Nothing screamed cheapness or "rental car" to me in any way. The build quality was good, the car was quiet, the materials were soft, etc. Instead of inferring poor quality without any examples, why dont you explain to us why you are saying GM cars are built to low standards.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Ummm, let's see here, I was quoting you on that one. Best go back and take a look. You said: "Sorry, but rental agencies arent the best place to test drive cars. Do you really expect to find nicely optioned cars at Avis? A lot of cars are less desirable with their base engines and cheapest trim lines." Which implies that the base models are not desirable with that cheap trim, and the base engine is no so desirable. So, indeed, make the car with the tires, engines and interiors which are desirable. Must we upgrade every car? Simply agreeing with what you said. Certainly did not say any car, be it Ford, GM or Chrysler is crap. I don't drive rental cars, since the last GM car I owned. They gave me rentals when the car was in the shop. And that was some years back. Bought a Corolla, Miata and PT, and none required a rental car. The Miata was used, and the slave master cylinder went out and was repaired in a day. I had the Corolla at the time, so no rental car.

    I have sat in a LaCrosse, but have never driven one. Seemed like an OK interior. I prefer the emergency brake as hand operated, and if I recall correctly it had some less expensive tires. It may be an adequate rental car to drive. I tested the G6 Coupe and the Aura in the GM lines before buying the new car, as they were closer in handling and something kinda fresh looking style wise. Both could use the better engine in the base, though I would agree, all the engine choices get the job done. An XE is an alright car, while the XR is a cut above. Perhaps some day the base goes away, and the top line one is the only left. The mix is sales was to be far more of the XE compared to XR models, but I am pretty sure people are buying a bit more upscale models than GM thought they would sell. Maybe the base could be left to G6 and four banger engines.
    Loren
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Engine - underpowered, slow revving.
    Ride - soft, steering too light, no road feel.
    Interior - poorly assembled, low grade materials all around, chairs uncomfortable for any driving over 1 hour.

    The Dodge Magnum isn't much better as well. I had that for my house hunting trip last May.

    I guess for the price the Impala isn't bad, it offers standard V6 (although Honda/Nissan I4 has more kick than the one I got) and plenty interior room. Just not my cup of tea.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 14,132
    I forgot my Hawaii trip a couple years back landed me a Nissan Sentra rental. I have to say I was not impressed either. For me, Nissan is still not on the same playing field as Honda and Toyota, though the new Altima is a step up. The Sentra rental was underpowered, and relatively cheap looking in the interior.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    What data proves this rediculous statement: (Impala) it offers standard V6 (although Honda/Nissan I4 has more kick.

    If you look at torque at 2000 rpm for 3.5 V6 Impala base engine vs honda L4 torque at 2000 rpm, you may find the Impala has much more.

    Don't compare a lightweight Civic with the most powerful Honda engine available in Civics to Chevy's heaviest 4 dr sedan with the smallest available engine (out of 3 available)?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Sometimes stats doesn't translate into real world driving.

    If you haven't figure out this by now then...
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,745
    Here's the Imapal 3.5. Let's see the graph for the I4.

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    it won't be long before GM finds it economically compelling to build Buicks in China and ship a portion over here.

    Not any of the current models or replacements. But it is possible a new model on a new platform that is not built here in the US may get imported but I doubt it. LaCrosse will be an Eps 2 and will be built with the other Eps 2 here.

    Enclave will always be built here. If what I read is true the new Lucerne will be built in Oshawa. Doubt if Buick sells anything smaller.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    That's nice. And for around the same price you can get a Honda SEV6 244HP with stability control, 6 CD changer, 17" Alloy wheels, Michelin tires and....
    The Impala is what it is, and good bargain priced slightly large car than what Japan has in the price range. It gets the job done for vacations, corporate cars, and police departments - city vehicles and such. And they are great used cars for those needing to save some bucks, yet need some room. It is what it is, a workhorse, and is proven reliable enough. I don't see it as competition to the Accord, Camry, Altima, and the like. Its gotta niche which is fine. The New Impala with RWD and a larger engine may be something people can get more excited about. A FWD with a V8, which was designed for a V6--nahhh ?
    Loren
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/autoweekend/20070329-103902-3663r.htm Edmunds editor

    A year ago at this time, rumors of GM's imminent bankruptcy were rampant, but the more recent news has been encouraging.
    GM reported it earned $950 million for the fourth quarter of 2006, its first profitable quarter in two years. For all of 2006, GM still lost money, but significantly less than the year before -- $2 billion compared with $10.4 billion in 2005.
    That's in stark contrast to GM's crosstown rivals, who are only beginning to implement their turnaround plans. Ford reported a $12.7 billion loss in 2006, its worst performance in its 103-year history.

    On the product side, GM surely is showing signs of renewed life. Once GM was famous for styling and its flair is returning, starting with Cadillacs and now making its way to such bread-and-butter models as the Chevrolet Malibu.
    More significantly, GM is leapfrogging the competition in interior design. The Saturn Aura and Sky were first to demonstrate GM still knew how to do good interiors. The 2008 Cadillac CTS and 2008 Chevrolet Malibu take design to another level.
    GM's success stories are mounting. Cadillac's turnaround has been phenomenal and well documented. But Saturn and often-overlooked GMC are just as impressive. They were the only two domestic
    brands in the U.S. to have higher sales in 2006 than in 2005, and they are having particular success in the all-important California market.
    On the numbers side, GM has lowered unprofitable daily rental fleet sales; reduced incentive spending to its lowest level since April 2002, though it has announced March incentives to keep its sales momentum going; brought transaction prices closer in line with manufacturer's suggested retail prices so it discounts less; eliminated 34,300 union jobs through buyouts and early retirements; and announced it will close 12 North American facilities by 2009 in line with its lower sales and market share.
    In addition to the recently announced financial results, GM is seeing some payoff. Its market share is edging upward and more car shoppers are considering GM products.
    GM is also winning awards. GM swept the 2007 North American Car and Truck of the Year awards, only the second time in the history of the awards that a single manufacturer has won both honors.
    A new national poll of 1,000 Americans by Rasmussen Reports shows 69 percent think favorably of GM, a major jump from 48 percent last year. Fortune magazine's 2007 ranking of America's Most Admired companies saw GM climb to fifth from ninth in the motor vehicle sector.

    Still, GM is declaring no victory and recognizes much work and many challenges lie ahead. At the top of the to-do list is GM's upcoming contract with the United Auto Workers' union; the current contract expires in September.
    GM absolutely must negotiate a favorable contract with the union. GM has to address skyrocketing health care costs ($4.7 million this year). GM must negotiate an agreement and avert a strike, costly in more ways than one.
    GM cannot afford any missteps or any backsliding on its commitment to be best-in-class in various segments and a fuel economy leader.
    Introduction of a production version of the ground-breaking Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid concept would go a long way toward changing perceptions of GM as a leader in technological innovation -- a reputation it once owned -- and GM as an environmental leader.
  • punkr77punkr77 Member Posts: 183
    I'm not a huge fan of Nissan, but I think they've stepped up their game a lot in the last 2 years or so. The Z is currently at the top of my "whenever my car drops dead" list. The Altima coupe that's on it's way looks pretty sweet. The Maxima has always impressed me. I've looked at most of the Infinity's too. Was much more impressed than their Lexus rivals.

    On the flip side, the Sentra and Versa would be near the bottom of my list if I was looking for that kind of car. The Sentra has been redesigned I think since you drove one. Perhaps it's improved.

    I visited a Chevy and a Ford dealer about a month ago. Other than the Mustang and Vette, there wasn't anything there that peaked my interest at all. The Vette is still out of my price range (maybe some day). I really liked the new 'stangs when they came out but the more I see them, the less I like them. I test drove one and couldn't get used to the claustrophobic cabin and view-slit windows.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Saturn workers can go on layoff without worry now -- they will return as Chevrolet workers.

    But when?

    General Motors officially let the car out of the bag this afternoon on the future of Saturn's soon-to-close factory in Spring Hill, Tenn.

    The plant will produce a new Chevrolet crossover in 2009, GM North America President Troy Clarke told them during a plant visit.

    The question has been a source of anxiety for some the 4,200 hourly workers at Spring Hill. Although sources have indicated that a Lambda-platform Chevy was definitely planned for Spring Hill, many workers had their doubts.

    "We're just worried that GM hasn't told us what's coming," assembly worker Craig Fincher said earlier this week as he prepared for an extended layoff. "It would be nice to have that little reassurance that something's coming for us. Why haven't they said?"

    Today, Clarke said.

    "Do you know a plant that wants to build a Chevy crossover?" Clarke asked the cheering crowd. "Well, guess what? You're going to."

    Clarke told workers the Chevy would start in 2009. He did not clarify whether he meant calendar year 2009 or model year 2009.

    The difference is important, since a calendar-year 2009 start would mean a much longer lay-off for the thousands of Spring Hill employees and some 10,000 dependent supplier jobs. The plant has been planning on a 14-16 month suspension until now, which would indicate a late summer 2008 reopening.

    In Detroit, GM would only confirm in a brief prepared statement that it had shared business information with employees "that they will have a future product upon their return."

    "We are not prepared to discuss the specific product at this time," the statement read, "as it is still more than two years away."
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    One note. Edmunds is the only source that estimates monthly sales and is always wrong. Supposedly they do it because all the new outlets report it and they get their name out there.

    Analysts and automakers expect March vehicle sales to be flat compared with last year, with reduced truck sales buoyed by stronger sales of cars and car-based utility vehicles.

    U.S. sales results for Detroit auto companies are expected to continue to reflect a slower housing market's depressing effect on truck sales and General Motors Corp.'s and Ford Motor Co.'s efforts to reduce sales to car-rental companies. Detroit automakers are also continuing to work through production cuts, analysts said.

    Meanwhile, the three largest foreign automakers in the United States are expected to report sales gains in year-over-year comparisons, thanks in great part to their established success in the small and midsize car segments, analysts said.

    "Mainly what went up in March was compact cars," said Jesse Toprak, executive director of industry analysis for Edmunds.com. "The trucks are actually recovering, too. The size of the truck market will not expand in 2007, but it will hold its ground. That's going to be a result of new products."

    GM and Toyota have new pickups on the market, and GM has a series of new SUVs and crossovers that have been doing well in their first few months of sales.

    But even Toyota, which analysts say rarely offers incentives on new models, announced a $1,000 to $1,500 incentive on its new Tundra full-size pickup this week to remain competitive in a tough truck market in which domestic automakers held a 91 percent share in 2006.
    For March, Edmunds forecast:
    · Ford sales would fall 17.2 percent.
    · Chrysler Group sales would drop 6.2 percent.
    · GM sales would be down 1.3 percent.


    (lets see how close they are)

    · Nissan would be up 1.1 percent.
    · Honda would enjoy a 3 percent bump.
    · Toyota would rise 8.8 percent.

    Other analysts were generally in agreement with the Edmunds.com predictions that Chrysler and Ford sales would be weaker than a year ago, GM and Nissan would be relatively flat and Toyota and Honda would see improvement.

    GM's chief market analyst Paul Ballew said the automaker expects retail sales to "have a solid month," but because fleet sales will be down about 20 percent ? or 15,000 vehicles ? he wouldn't forecast a total result for the month.

    Ballew said GM has had solid sales of trucks and car-based utility vehicles, such as the GMC Acadia, and a "terrific first quarter" for sales of its Chevrolet Impala, Saturn Aura and Pontiac G6 sedans.

    Ford's chief sales analyst, George Pipas, said discounted sales to businesses and other large-volume customers would be down in the double digits again in March. Ford reported a 42 percent decline in so-called fleet sales in January and a 20 percent decline in February.

    Edmunds.com's Toprak said compact cars are the growth segment in the U.S. market at this point, along with the reloaded Saturn lineup.

    "The Saturn brand has been doing phenomenal," he said. "The Honda Civic, the Chevrolet Cobalt, the Chevrolet Aveo, the Toyota Prius are all going to do well."

    "We look to foreign brand light trucks to be down 3 percent to 5 percent and passenger car sales to be up 3 percent to 5 percent," Ceraso wrote in a report released Thursday.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Toyota Deepens Discounts on Its New Pickup ? The New York Times
    By NickBunkley
    March 30, 2007

    DETROIT ? Toyota Motor continues to increase discounts on its new full-size pickup, the Tundra, another sign that it is not cutting into the profitable truck market as much as rival automakers had feared.

    Toyota dealers began offering a $1,000 trade-in incentive this week to Tundra buyers, who can combine that discount with existing cash-back offers of as much as $2,000.

    Analysts say they are surprised to see such heavy incentives on a vehicle that went on sale less than two months ago, but Denise Morrissey, a spokeswoman for the automaker, said that such offers were ?just part of how you do business.?

    Ms. Morrissey said Thursday that higher discounts were available on some competing trucks and that failing to keep up could hurt the Tundra?s ability to attract shoppers. ?In the truck segment, the customers really do expect them,? Ms. Morrissey said. ?This is our first real foray into this segment. When in Rome, you know.?

    The Tundra?s growing list of incentives is welcome news in Detroit, which has long dominated the pickup market. Although General Motors and Ford have publicly said they are not worried about losing sales to the Tundra, Toyota has shown repeatedly that it should never be underestimated.

    So far the Tundra, which was redesigned to be bigger and brawnier, has fallen short of its publicity. Toyota, known for its commitment to vehicle safety, suffered a mild embarrassment last week when the federal government gave the Tundra a four-star rating in frontal crash tests ? one star fewer than all competing models made by Detroit.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    U.S. Carmakers Step Up Pressure Over Yen ? Financial Times
    By Eoin Callan
    March 30, 2007

    The chief executives of GM and Ford are taking on Hank Paulson over the U.S. Treasury secretary's hands-off policy on the weak yen in a bid to undermine rival Toyota.

    The executives have established a fresh political campaign aimed at influencing pending legislation in Congress after direct personal appeals to President George W. Bush were rebuffed.

    The companies want lawmakers to force the Bush administration to exert pressure on Tokyo over the value of the yen ? which is at a 20-year low in real terms and made Toyota's exports more profitable last year.

    The lobbying effort gained momentum this week when measures sought by the carmakers were presented in both chambers of Congress by members that have received campaign contributions from GM and Ford.

    Steve Biegun, a vice-president at Ford, said: "The Japanese need a warning shot fired across the bow."

    A GM executive said the campaign was being directed at "the highest levels".

    It comes as lawmakers prepare to outline sweeping legislation next week aimed at addressing the record US trade deficit with China and global economic imbalances.

    The bill taking shape would direct the Treasury to act against countries over currency "misalignments" or "manipulation" and could include a range of responses from international mediation to unilateral action.

    A lobbyist for GM, Ford and Chrysler said the Treasury secretary needed to be pushed into spearheading a co-ordinated international effort that would lead to "Japan selling down its excessive reserves" to stimulate a stronger yen.

    "Hank Paulson needs to ensure the yen is on the agenda of the next meeting of the G7 [industrialised nations]," the lobbyist said.

    Mr. Paulson has been one of the staunchest defenders of Tokyo's position that the value of the yen is a result of market forces, despite moves by European finance ministers to isolate Japan.

    Officials in Tokyo argue Japan has not intervened in the currency market since 2004, while many economists say the main reason for yen depreciation is the wide interest rate differential with the rest of the world. This encourages borrowing in yen and investment in higher-yielding assets abroad.

    GM, Ford and their allies in Congress cite studies by academics and economists calling for Japan to adapt its economic policy to address global economic imbalances.

    A report released this week by the Peterson Institute for International Economics argued: "A Japan that is committed to co-operation on exchange rate policy in Asia should take the lead in the region on exchange rate adjustment against the dollar."

    Toyota declined to comment.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    HOUSTON ? Prices at the pump are rising again, much as they do every spring as oil traders bid up the price of crude ahead of possible summer shortages. Possibilities for more conflict in Iran and elsewhere in the Middle East are adding to the surge.

    But there is something new this time, energy experts say, in how drivers are reacting ? or, more accurately, not reacting, even as the price of gas has climbed over the last two months to a national average of more than $2.60 a gallon. It has topped $3 a gallon in many parts of the country, particularly along the Pacific Coast.

    But as Americans enter the sixth year of rising oil and gasoline prices, their shift in driving habits this time has been much less extensive. What?s more, in recent weeks, gas consumption has gone up, not down, and drivers are changing their daily driving habits only slightly.

    ?I don?t think about gas prices at all,? said Michael Machat, 48, a lawyer in West Los Angeles, where gasoline prices are among the highest in the country. As he filled up his BMW with super unleaded at $3.39 this week, he added, ?I guess maybe if it was $10 a gallon, I?d think about it.?

    A recent study that Christopher Knittel, an economics professor at the University of California, Davis, helped write showed that every time from November 1975 to November 1980 that gasoline prices went up 20 percent, consumers changed their driving behavior by cutting gas consumption by 6 percent per capita nationwide.

    But from March 2001 to March 2006, drivers reduced consumption just 1 percent when prices rose 20 percent. Prices swung up and down seasonally during both periods, but Mr. Knittel said the two periods were comparable because regular gasoline prices increased in both periods by about 66 percent, to $2.50 from $1.50 in real terms, set at 2000 dollars.

    While more and more consumers around the country are buying smaller, more-efficient cars and fewer SUVs, that trend is unfolding a lot more slowly these days than 30 years ago. It was a very different era back then, when Congress was willing to enact tougher gasoline standards and when President Jimmy Carter called on the country ?to live thriftily? and ?find ways to adjust and to make our society more efficient.?

    ?One would think that with prices up over the last few years, people would drive less, but that?s not the case,? said Aaron Brady, an expert on gasoline refining and consumption at Cambridge Energy Research Associates, a consulting firm. ?Demand is up over the last year.?

    The Department of Energy reported on Wednesday that gasoline demand for transportation over the last four weeks averaged 9.2 million barrels a day, or 1.6 percent higher than in the corresponding time last year, when prices were a bit lower. The rising use by consumers and businesses is putting further pressure on prices. On top of that, United States commercial crude oil inventories fell by 0.9 million barrels in the week ended March 23, compared with the previous week. Spring is also the season when refineries retool, producing slightly less gasoline.

    Interviews with drivers around the country show they are less than alarmed by the new run-up in prices, even if they are not happy about it. And they still suspect Big Oil is fleecing them. Not surprisingly, higher-income drivers are particularly unruffled, but middle-income drivers also seem fairly tranquil.

    Veronica Burgos, a 39-year-old bookkeeper, says she is not about to give up her aging gas-guzzling navy blue Ford Explorer to commute to work and shuttle her children around, even though gasoline prices in the Los Angeles area where she lives are now ?ridiculous.?

    ?With this SUV, you really feel it, but I have two kids so I need it,? she said. ?In reality my husband would probably rather that I don?t drive the SUV so much, but I still do and I drive quite a bit. With work and two kids and all their activities, especially on the weekend, we?re more comfortable in the SUV So what are you going to do??

    ?The market rally in gasoline is like the Oscars,? said Tom Kloza, chief oil analyst at Oil Price Information Service, a trade publication. ?It gets moved up every year.?

    ?Our preliminary analysis is showing vehicle choice is less sensitive to gas prices today than compared with the 1970s,? he said. ?We might be buying fewer SUVs, but a lot of the shifting is to cars that are not appreciably more fuel-efficient, such as minivans.?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    A Mustang is claustrophobic for ya, yet the Z is not. Whoa, I am missing something here, unless we are talking convertible. That Z, with the tiny windows and huge doors is impossible to see out of, and feels too confining. I ended up with an Accord, with lots of glass area, and a pretty spunky engine.

    I too like the looks of the photos of the Altima Coupe, but do not like the lighter steering, and the CVT transmission. Overall the Accord feels better. You may want to try out the Aura XR, which is less expensive than a Maxima, or Infinity, yet packs good punch to HP and torque.

    As for Mustang vs. Corvette, I would say an older Stang would be interesting, and the newer one less so in my view. Don't like the interior of the new one, and the exterior is too replicar. Now a used C5 Corvette, if you are need of speed and sports car looks all rolled into one, would be fine. They can run serious dollars though.

    Future list could include the Impala RWD or Camaro, or the New Malibu with the 3.6 V6. And current Aura XR is pretty hot, in the GM line. Depends how far into the future your list is going.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Yeap, people don't seem to care. If they lose their home, I guess those large SUVs have more living space. I would think it best not to buy something which guzzles gas when prices hit the $3.50 to who knows what - maybe $5 some day. People do have more money these days, which accounts for the cavalier attitude towards gas consumption and pricing. I too bought a V6 when I could have bought the i4. But I will get around 28 - 29MPG on the freeway, or better, which is not too extravagant.

    So will GM make some cool minivans some day. And how do you get the image war working in your favor? The soccer mom image is fine with me, as the van is a kid mover, for the most part. Now to make them more macho so guys love them.... Let's see, we need the first ever Hummer 1 Minivan. :D
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    And, I may add, our dollar is worth .75 to the Euro. Recall the time when it was worth say $1.20 to every Euro? All currencies are manipulated around the world. It is hard to believe that Euro cars are not rising in price at an alarming rate.
    Loren
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Yeap, people don't seem to care. If they lose their home, I guess those large SUVs have more living space. I would think it best not to buy something which guzzles gas when prices hit the $3.50 to who knows what - maybe $5 some day.

    ??? Yes I guess you are right they could live out of their SUV. BUT the point is that #2.50 vs $3 is really not a heck of a lot of money. People blow more than that on coffee and cigs.

    Minivan is becoming a small niche market. CUVs are quickly taking over that market.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    It is hard to believe that Euro cars are not rising in price at an alarming rate.
    Loren


    No it is not hard to believe. They are not all mighty, they also have to compete. Prices are held down for all by the cheapest in the market. That is great for the consumers untill the competition goes out of business and the last left standing raise their prices.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    I can't post the curve but I found the 180 HP 2007 Civic si curve.
    http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=422073&page=3
    At 2500 rpm, Honda 4 cyl reaches 120 ft. lbs
    The 3.5 liter Impala has 208 ft-lbs at same rpm. This doesn't translate into real world driving? I'm supposed to feel much more kick from 120 ft-lbs than 208 ft-lbs? How much more?
    At 6200 rpm, the Honda peaks at 134. At least the Honda 4 cyl does good on torque steer.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Aren't profits good for BMW and Mercedes? And I would think not so good for VW these days?
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The 2007 Si is 197HP and 139# torque. Plenty engine for a lightweight car. Would not recommend that low a torque for the larger boats. :shades: Is this info. for some drag race? The country road or should I say track race will be won by the Civic. To launch heavy car off the line, do not attempt to do so with 139# of torque. ;) Once under way, sport car wins.

    Now back to GM being offensive. I hope they aren't being too offensive. ;)
    Or is this a football analogy? If so, they seem to have a better coach, and a few good players. A few injured, but hoping to get into game shape by the end of the year. The trick play strategy seems to have thrown a few on the J team off their game, but look out for the second half, just when things will get interesting. With a whole lot of luck, no players walk off the field do to a strike, and that statue of liberty play works once again. Japan teams are still pumped up.
    -- meanwhile another game is going on Elswhere, USA. So how is that game going???
    Well it seems that Ford players are still in the locker room. No one really knows when that team is ready to play, or will just go home and retire. More to come, as they go Boldly where no car company has ever gone. Well at least that many rolled into one.
    Loren
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,745
    62VetteFP

    Did I get the right Impala motor from the website for powertrain information?

    There was a 2nd 3.5 motor listed.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,745
    4 cyl Si--
    Any graphs for regular honda or Toyota 4 cyl and 6 cyl?

    image

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    JDM 2007 Civic Type R:
    image

    JDM Civic 1.8:
    image

    JDM Honda Inspire (USDM Accord) 3.0 V6:
    image

    JDM Nissan Skyline (Infiniti G35) 3.5 V6:
    image
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    These charts more or less confirm what I think, that Japanese engines with peak torque at nearly 5000 RPMs have poor lowend torque. Below 2000 RPMs the torque falls off rapidly.
  • 62vetteefp62vetteefp Member Posts: 6,043
    Yes, both 3.5 engines I found listed for impala have same curves. One is just flexfuel.
  • dave8697dave8697 Member Posts: 1,498
    I guess for the price the Impala isn't bad, it offers standard V6 (although Honda/Nissan I4 has more kick than the one I got) and plenty interior room. Just not my cup of tea.
    These torque curves are just disproving louiswei's claim of more kick from Honda 4 than GM V6.
  • punkr77punkr77 Member Posts: 183
    The new mustangs I sat in reminded me of driving a buttoned up tank looking through viewslits, add a black interior and it's like sitting in a cave. I drive a last gen mustang now and didn't feel at home in it. My biggest gripe about my current car is how heavy it feels, the new ones packed on even more pounds.

    The Z didn't seem that claustrophobic to me, but that's just my opinion. GM at present isn't offering anything interesting in my price range. The GTO was a styling disaster, so they dropped it. The Camero is still years out (and will likely share the mustangs obesity problem).

    Basicly, every GM car just seems poorly executed to me. Every type of car I can think of (I don't do trucks or SUV's) except for the Vette falls in the "its okay but for the same price I can get ____" category. I like the Civic's interior and exterior styling better than the Cobalt, I'd go for a Maxima or Altima before most of their sedans, Infiniti over Caddy, etc. None of the new GM's are just plain bad like their offerings in the 90's, they're just painfully average. Add in their ever shrinking availability of manual tranny's and I don't see me considering one any time soon.

    I could say very similar things about Ford and Toyota.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Fortunately my car came equipped with a gas pedal so I can archive more RPM's than 2,000. The engine sings all the way up to 6,000 making wonderful sounds, unlike those which you would swear are about to throw a rod. If you don't believe me, test drive a used Accord with a V6, so you can punch it.
    The 2007 has a zero to sixty of 6.6 seconds, which is quite adequate for all except a dragster. Most Impala owners I am sure really could care less what is under the hood, and the 3.5 pulls the car along just fine. It is however not in the same class of engines. If they are just as good as say the 3.6 engine from GM, why off the two? Why don't they have a 230, 250 or 300HP OHV V6?
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The only low priced, RWD, with a manual I can think of in the GM line would be the Solstice / SKY, but they have the drop on down in feel. You could get a Miata. There are so many cars on the market, yet so few which are for fun driving, with RWD, with a stick, at a low price. I gave up on that, decided FWD was OK with the stability control and double wishbone suspension, and are relaxing with an automatic transmission. Perhaps one day, a Corvette (used) as a second car would be fun. The New Camaro, other than the too tall doors, looks pretty cool. If it is not as wide as a semi-truck, it may be something to consider. It is coming! I don't care for the narrow seat on the New Miata, or it would possibly be another one I would have as one on the maybe list for a second car. My old '96 had wider seats. It too was a bit small. Seems like cars are small or huge.

    The only other thing I would say to you is to try the Aura XR, with paddle shift, which is not important. What is important is that when in that mode it can hold gears while cornering and you have extra control. As for shifting from a standstill, the automatic mode does just fine with the XR. The car seems pretty balanced on turns. It could go on a diet, but overall it does well in and around its price range. The XR may have to be ordered to find a truely base one, unless you want ever so much jazz on her.

    What would be a cool car is that Solstice Coupe, with slightly lower doors and not that in a cave feel. The show car photos look pretty hot!

    Smaller to Mid-sized cars, other than a BMW, with a stick are gonna be a rare find. In USA they don't sell well, and thus the manufacturers (most all) have backed away from the stick. The last of the four cylinders was the Nissan 240SX, I do believe. Most cars now are as boring as an SUV. Oh wait, those sell. Can't say GM was wrong in making those extra bucks on the SUVs over the years. Easy money, as people paid lots and lots of money for those monsters. It was a good cash cow.
    Loren
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    My claim was based on my OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Not the torque curves.
  • sls002sls002 Member Posts: 2,788
    Engines with enough lowend torque that allow them to cruise at less than 2000 RPMs use less fuel. My northstar will wind up to 6000 RPMs too, but has 270 ft-lbs of torque at lower speeds and will run in overdrive at 1200 RPMs.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,745
    That explains the two 3.5s.

    Ironic about the flexfuel. A local quickmart and gas station chain has a zone office near me. Their managers all have a flexfuel Impala. But none of the Mobile pumps they have are E85.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Let's see the SLS 2002 gets 18/27 MPG and 0-60 6.5 sec.
    The Accord V6 2007 gets 20/29 MPG and 0-60 6.6 sec.

    I considered buying a used SLS, which is a pretty good car indeed. Decided to go with a new car as the repair bills and upkeep on a used Caddy could add up quickly. Anyway the Northstar V8, the 3.6 DOHC V6 of GM vs. The Honda V6 for all practicle purpose seems to be about the same. And I should get a few more MPG along the way.

    For gas mileage on V8's, those Corvette owners of C5 era cars, with the stick shifts report some MPG figures right up there with the V6 cars. Now there is a good ol' OHV engine old as the hills and still kickin'. The 350 has been retired on those? Pretty inexpensive engine to keep the old classics running. I take it they will be making those engines in Mexico for some time to come.
    Loren
This discussion has been closed.

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